Baldur's Gate PoE vs IE: Do wizards need to have more stuff to do in combat? DISCUSS!

[Rake]

Y'all niggas just like bad games.

Games are bad by definition. Only when they strive to become closer to books they are worth something

Spoiler

What, did you expect a troll emoticon? Faggot.

Spoiler

 

[Mangoose]

I like Mangoose's idea of giving constructive feedback but as they seem to be polishing/balancing now I can't help feeling that it's probably too late for feedback for PoE.

Uh, beta hasn't even started yet.

 

[Zorba the Hutt]

I like Mangoose's idea of giving constructive feedback but as they seem to be polishing/balancing now I can't help feeling that it's probably too late for feedback for PoE.

Uh, beta hasn't even started yet.

Yes, but Sawyer's recent comments have been about polishing / balancing classes etc - would they really make a major change to the mechanics now which would undo all this work? I'm guessing it would take a lot to change his mind on his system now, apart from finetuning, unless the beta was really badly received.

 

[Rake]

Mechanics won't change much, at least not in the way some here (including me) want them.
Sawyer had some design principles from the start, and designed the rest of the game around those. Soul power and magical fighters was a cop out, because from the start he wanted a system where all classes were about equal in combat. So magic in the setting isn't something that only a select few (wizards) can use, it's something that everyone has access to, just with different ways to tap it. Has more in common with Naruto magic system than D&D, so Zombra is out of luck.
He wanted stats that offer systemic value to all classes equaly, so Lyric Suite is out of luck as well.
And renaming the stats won't work because they need them to be usefull in the dialogue as well, and having "soul power" affect lifting boulders while "soul control" affect inteligence in dialogue options makes even less of a sense. The heart of the problem is that the mechanics and the rest of the game don't fit together, nor make sense, but while this is a problem for some people, it isn't for Sawyer, so don't excpect change in that front.

 

[Mangoose]

Mechanics won't change much, at least not in the way some here (including me) want them.
Sawyer had some design principles from the start, and designed the rest of the game around those. Soul power and magical fighters was a cop out, because from the start he wanted a system where all classes were about equal in combat. So magic in the setting isn't something that only a select few (wizards) can use, it's something that everyone has access to, just with different ways to tap it. Has more in common with Naruto magic system than D&D, so Zombra is out of luck.
He wanted stats that offer systemic value to all classes equaly, so Lyric Suite is out of luck as well.

It's funny because he purposefully made souls less important to be more like D&D:

Early on, and this isn’t going to happen now, we had some ideas that people might still be interested in. We use souls, your own and other peoples’, as a justification or a reason as to why powers work the way that they do. But ultimately, many of the ways that those powers work, mechanically, are locked into existing ideas. They’re not necessarily executed exactly how you’ve seen before but we are a little limited in how we can build our classes because we want them to be understood by a D&D audience. We can’t go too heavy on the souls.

http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2014/07/29/expert-speech-skill-pillars-of-eternity-interview-part-2/

The heart of the problem is that the mechanics and the rest of the game don't fit together, nor make sense

You mean that two of the mechanics don't make sense, Intellect and Might, while the four other attributes nobody complains about - Constitution, Dexterity, Perception, and Resolve. Clearly since the majority of attributes are fine, all the mechanics of the game don't fit together and none of it makes sense.

 

[a cut of domestic sheep prime]

ITT people fighting to preserve fantasy tropes like supersmart wizard genius and drooling barbarian idiot while using words like "logic." Keep fighting the good fight guys.

itt people have difficulty defending an obviously illogical design decision, so they build strawmen and tell everyone to ignore it.

 

[Zombra]

No dump stats is certainly far more interesting than having clearly optimal builds for each class with no tradeoffs. Wasteland 2 seems to have done a better job of this, or at least they made stat effects more intuitive, but PoE's looks cool too. I looked at that stat screen in the previews and was happy to realize that I would actually have to make decisions.

 

[Mangoose]

ITT people fighting to preserve fantasy tropes like supersmart wizard genius and drooling barbarian idiot while using words like "logic." Keep fighting the good fight guys.

itt people have difficulty defending an obviously illogical design decision, so they build strawmen and tell everyone to ignore it.

No, you faggot, I'm defending against unconstructive criticism, which I even agree with, because it doesn't help. Like I said, what's the point of making the same exact point of criticism over and over and over again? But I admit I'm at fault. Not for defending the system, but criticizing the criticism, which just promotes the criticism because justifiably people think I'm arguing against their opinion rather than arguing against their method of criticism.

So I'll stop that now.

However I will defend the fact that it is not a completely flawed system. It is flawed, yes. It's not perfect, yes. I definitely agree it's possible for a better one to be designed. But it sure as hell not going to be D&D, because that's just the opposite by having so little variation in build that only a retard is punished. That's not a good design because none of us are retards except Flying Spaghetti Monster. Having clear, obvious choices and clear, obvious dump choices make it just as easy to build a good character as having no dump stats.

So if difficulty in character build is what you want, you need a lot of complexity, and then you need multiple ways to build a successful character along with multiple ways to build a failure of a person. You need multiple paths, with half leading to dead ends, and enough complexity to fog your view so it's not clear which leads to the dead end.

---

Anyways, I got off topic, because I had wanted to discuss how to make positive changes to what exists right now in PoE. My post detailing this was http://www.rpgcodex.net/forums/inde...-in-combat-discuss.93285/page-10#post-3416244
Mainly I came up with a bunch of possible complications as I thought about how to making Intellect work for a Barbarian. These led me to questions I couldn't answer (at the time), so I sought answers from the rest of you. And if a method can be somewhat achieved, then the same method may apply as well to Might.

Now, Zorba the Hutt knew what I was going for. Sorry, Zorba, I haven't read your post yet. And it was kinda disrespectful for me to pick up on your first line without reading the real substance of your post. Will do that right after this post. His post was http://www.rpgcodex.net/forums/inde...-in-combat-discuss.93285/page-10#post-3416471

---

The other thing I realized from Hobo Elf (but not directly related to what he said) is that while I still don't think Sawyer's design philosophy is wrong, I think he is could be taking it to an unnecessary extreme. And that stubborn extreme is alienating a certain fangroup. The idea that you can have multiple types of Barbarians, Wizards, whatever is a good idea. In D&D you do have several options, but for the most part you have 2 builds that work, and often with an obvious main stat. Based on this line of thinking - that Sawyer's ideas may be more palatable in a more moderate implementation - why not design a system that allows something like 1-3 dump stats? Compared to D&D which is more like 3-5 dump stats. I may be unintentionally exaggerating but please understand the point. Instead of having 2 builds as in D&D, or 6 builds as in PoE, why not have 4 builds? This kind of relates to the first part of this reply where I already digressed before going back to my original argument, lol.

 

[MasterSmithFandango]

ITT people fighting to preserve fantasy tropes like supersmart wizard genius and drooling barbarian idiot while using words like "logic." Keep fighting the good fight guys.

itt people have difficulty defending an obviously illogical design decision, so they build strawmen and tell everyone to ignore it.

No, you faggot, I'm defending against unconstructive criticism, which I even agree with, because it doesn't help. Like I said, what's the point of making the same exact point of criticism over and over and over again? But I admit I'm at fault. Not for defending the system, but criticizing the criticism, which just promotes the criticism because justifiably people think I'm arguing against their opinion rather than arguing against their method of criticism.

So I'll stop that now.

However I will defend the fact that it is not a completely flawed system. It is flawed, yes. It's not perfect, yes. I definitely agree it's possible for a better one to be designed. But it sure as hell not going to be D&D, because that's just the opposite by having so little variation in build that only a retard is punished. That's not a good design because none of us are retards except Flying Spaghetti Monster. Having clear, obvious choices and clear, obvious dump choices make it just as easy to build a good character as having no dump stats.

So if difficulty in character build is what you want, you need a lot of complexity, and then you need multiple ways to build a successful character along with multiple ways to build a failure of a person. You need multiple paths, with half leading to dead ends, and enough complexity to fog your view so it's not clear which leads to the dead end.

---

Anyways, I got off topic, because I had wanted to discuss how to make positive changes to what exists right now in PoE. My post detailing this was http://www.rpgcodex.net/forums/inde...-in-combat-discuss.93285/page-10#post-3416244
Mainly I came up with a bunch of possible complications as I thought about how to making Intellect work for a Barbarian. These led me to questions I couldn't answer (at the time), so I sought answers from the rest of you. And if a method can be somewhat achieved, then the same method may apply as well to Might.

Now, Zorba the Hutt knew what I was going for. Sorry, Zorba, I haven't read your post yet. And it was kinda disrespectful for me to pick up on your first line without reading the real substance of your post. Will do that right after this post. His post was http://www.rpgcodex.net/forums/inde...-in-combat-discuss.93285/page-10#post-3416471

---

The other thing I realized from Hobo Elf (but not directly related to what he said) is that while I still don't think Sawyer's design philosophy is wrong, I think he is could be taking it to an unnecessary extreme. And that stubborn extreme is alienating a certain fangroup. The idea that you can have multiple types of Barbarians, Wizards, whatever is a good idea. In D&D you do have several options, but for the most part you have 2 builds that work, and often with an obvious main stat. Based on this line of thinking - that Sawyer's ideas may be more palatable in a more moderate implementation - why not design a system that allows something like 1-3 dump stats? Compared to D&D which is more like 3-5 dump stats. I may be unintentionally exaggerating but please understand the point. Instead of having 2 builds as in D&D, or 6 builds as in PoE, why not have 4 builds? This kind of relates to the first part of this reply where I already digressed before going back to my original argument, lol.

 

[Suicidal]

Dump stats in a party-based RPG is the equivalent of implementing useless skills in a Falloutesque RPG. It's bad design in both cases. Of course, one can certainly disagree with a specific method of removing dump stats, which is what's happening in this thread.

Is this some Sawyerism or something? Dump stats aren't "bad design", trying to make all stats have meaning for each class is bad design. There is no logical reason a Barbarian in a fantasy setting would be more intelligent than a wielder of elemental forces. Trying to force this concept of all stats must have meaning for all classes/characters isn't much different than giving participation trophies out for the last place team in your rec basketball league. Poor character building (i.e. INT on a Barbarian/STR on a Wizard, etc.) punishes the player for being a fucking retard. Not every combination should be viable - instead players should be able to fail.

I really don't see the logic in this statement.

You claim as if traditional RPG rulesets with obvious pick and dump stats for specific classes is the superior way because it "punishes players for picking the wrong stats", but in truth it would only punish complete idiots, as Mangoose mentioned - the ones that probably would never play a game like that in the first place, cause as soon as you take a few moments to read what the stats do, everything becomes obvious.

So you think a game that uses Sawyer's system will not allow a player to fail? I can think of plenty ways it could. Some hypothetical examples, cause we still don't know how the game will work in the end: say, you invest too much into INT on your mage, your spells have a really huge range, it's useful in most situations. Then you enter a dungeon with monsters that have very high magic resistances and your lower MIGHT stat prevents you from doing any damage to them. Invest too much into MIGHT, not enough into INT. Your fireballs do a shitload of damage but their radius is tiny. You come a cross a situation where 2 enemies are standing close to each other - you want to damage them at the same time with your powerful spells, but can only reach one of them at a time. Use CON as dump stat? Enemies will one shot you unless you protect your mage with everything you got. And etc.

If the game is well designed, it will be possible to fail in any situation. The main difference is that instead of 2-3 stats you will have to consider all 6 when building each character. It does not make the game more "retard-friendly". On the contrary, it encourages experimentation and specialization.

 

[Mangoose]

Dump stats aren't bad design. Having too many dump stats is, and/or very obvious dump stats.

At the same time, minimizing dump stats is not bad design. But having 0 dump stats very easily lends to some flaws. It takes a genius to make it work perfectly, if even possible.

I disagree somewhat with Suicidal though. At least the way Sawyer wants it right now, I think he's making it that focusing one attribute will offset the advantage of low other attribute. Gameplay will simply be different. For example, a Mighty Wizard with low Intellect will simply maximize his use of single target spells.

And if that's not how the game is designed, then another possibility is that it is designed so that the optimal thing to do is put equal points in every attribute.

However, none of this precludes difficulty in party build. In fact, with this much freedom, you have the possibility of fucking yourself over by, for example, having 6 Might characters. A Wizard with no Con will work if you have Fighters and Paladins with high Con protecting you, but if your Fighters and Paladins maxed Might while minimizing Con, then your Wizard is fucked. So your character build does matter, in that with so much flexibility in character design, you need to consider how your other characters are built. (Hopefully this means your recruitable companions can be customized greatly).

In D&D, you consider less how your party members are built, and moreso what classes they are, because your class usually defines your role. In PoE, your classes only define part of your role.

For tonight, my conclusion is still that a moderation between D&D number of dump stats and PoE number of dump stats will result in the most challenge to a player. 1-2, maybe 3 dump stats. In character creation, you can still fuck up, but you still have several ways of building your character. In party assembly, you can still fuck up if you consider only class without considering the build of the character.

 

[Suicidal]

At the same time, minimizing dump stats is not bad design. But having 0 dump stats very easily lends to some flaws. It takes a genius to make it work perfectly, if even possible

That's why we have the great Josh Sawyer working on this game :Roguey:

But in all seriousness, I haven't been following the PoE thread as much as others, but if what you say is true about Sawyer's goal being "focusing one attribute will offset the advantage of low other attribute" rather then creating additional challenges for the player based on his stat choices, then that is indeed pretty lame :/

 

[kris]

Why?

Because doing stuff - having to do stuff - is more tactically interesting than not doing stuff.

But the wizard doing something is not the player doing something. A player should only need characters to do the really useful stuff, not have all the characters do "fairly useful stuff" all of the time. That really is a beauty of a RtwP game as you don't have to give everyone new orders all rounds. Have everyone fullfill their share, fullfill their role.

I am worried that forcing in everyone to be able to make equal contributions all of the time would only be bland and boring. Soon they all do the same stuff, only by different name.

 

[Infinitron]

Why?

Because doing stuff - having to do stuff - is more tactically interesting than not doing stuff.

But the wizard doing something is not the player doing something. A player should only need characters to do the really useful stuff, not have all the characters do "fairly useful stuff" all of the time. That really is a beauty of a RtwP game as you don't have to give everyone new orders all rounds. Have everyone fullfill their share, fullfill their role.

I am worried that forcing in everyone to be able to make equal contributions all of the time would only be bland and boring. Soon they all do the same stuff, only by different name.

Who said anything about equal? Pillars of Eternity is actually being explicitly designed with a notion of classes that can developed to be more passive or active.

But none of them will feel as shitty as low level wizards in a kobold dungeon crawl. (Or low level AD&D characters in general, TBH, but wizards especially.)

At the same time, minimizing dump stats is not bad design. But having 0 dump stats very easily lends to some flaws. It takes a genius to make it work perfectly, if even possible

That's why we have the great Josh Sawyer working on this game :Roguey:

But in all seriousness, I haven't been following the PoE thread as much as others, but if what you say is true about Sawyer's goal being "focusing one attribute will offset the advantage of low other attribute" rather then creating additional challenges for the player based on his stat choices, then that is indeed pretty lame :/

Read the sentence directly after what you quoted

 

[SymbolicFrank]

The point is, that a wizard with 8 int / 18 str should be equally effective as an 18 int / 8 str one. There is some difference in the details, but the DPS should be about equal.

The difference is in "playing style": some players might like one way better than another.

Then again, why bother with 6 different party members if the idea is that you give them all the same stats to fit your "playing style"?

The same argument goes for having different classes with such a system: why bother?

At least it's easy to min/max: just pick whatever. The DPS will be the same anyway. Everything else is flavour.

 

[Delterius]

You mean that two of the mechanics don't make sense, Intellect and Might, while the four other attributes nobody complains about - Constitution, Dexterity, Perception, and Resolve. Clearly since the majority of attributes are fine, all the mechanics of the game don't fit together and none of it makes sense.

Might is vague enough of a word that it can be interpreted as different kinds of raw power -- if I understand things right, the difference between a wizard who focuses on might, one who does so while taking weapon feats and another who focuses on intelligence is that of a straight mage of stronger fireballs, a battlemage and another straight mage with bigger splash damage. Its just Intelligence that really doesn't work for physical AoE attacks.

 

[Zombra]

Might is vague enough of a word that it can be interpreted as different kinds of raw power

Yeah. "Might represents a character's physical and spiritual strength" is what it says in the in-game description. There's nothing wrong with saying that guys who are physically buff translate that power into hitting harder with magic spells too. It does go against the tradition of matchstick mages who wield great power, but so what? Magic can work however they want. Picture Bruce Lee doing his One Inch Punch, which is practically magic, and then picture your grandma doing it. Bruce's buffness makes it stronger. I'm cool with this.

 

[Delterius]

It does go against the tradition of matchstick mages who wield great power, but so what?

It really doesn't? Physical prowess in itself is a composite of class features, feats and, yes, Might. Its not like a Sorcerer with 18 STR had THAC0 and Hitpoints to be relevant. Further, Might is a modifier on top of damage, which is only one of many things Magic can do. Most of that Great Power comes from the base power of spells. I can see where you are coming from, but the issue isn't nearly as fundamental as it is with Intelligence.

 

[Volourn]

"The point is, that a wizard with 8 int / 18 str should be equally effective as an 18 int / 8 str one."

As a character? Yes.

As a wizard? Hell fuck no.

 

[Invictus]

I really don't know what to think about PoE anymore; this whole "every character should be equal" PR shit is scaring me to be honest. D&D wizards and sorcerers had the most enjoyable "character" growth of any of the classes because while most of the other classes started out pretty much with a base set of skills and abilities that eventualy got getter but their "core" abilities were upgraded, for example barbarians would start with the berserk ability and as they leveled up they would have better bonuses or the ability to have extra time doing it.
Magic users would start the game really weak with few options for gear, limited spells and shitty attack bonuses, but they would eventualy get to be the strongest class in the party. Starting spells would still be useful (like magic missle or hold person) but most would eventualy get replaced by more powerful spells
Games like DA O tried to "make everyone useful" by having the magic users start out with upgradable spells with cooldown like World of Warcraft and while that wasn't bad at all, the constant trash mobs sort of ruined the enjoyment of the whole thing
But as I read and hear more and more Sawyer "designs" the more it sounds like we are going to see some more of the "scaling abilities" system
Thinking that all classes should be equal is retarded beyond measure, especialy since some classes (like rogues and bards) are designed to have other uses besides combat
The mere fact that Volly and commie of all people undertsand these concepts better than Sawyer himself is a scary proposition by itself
And while we are at it, how come Sawyer always picked a fighter style class and never a rogue, magic user or one of the PoE special classes?

 

[Volourn]

"The mere fact that Volly and commie of all people undertsand these concepts better than Sawyer himself is a scary proposition by itself"

Not scary at all. When it comes to rpg design I'm smarter and more knowledgeable than 99% of people including game developers. Problem is I'm lazier than 99% of the same people. L0LZ

Just ask Trokia how I called out TOEE's failings before it even got released. And, iw as proven 100% right like always.

 

[RK47]

for example barbarians would start with the berserk ability and as they leveled up they would have better bonuses or the ability to have extra time doing it.

And that is all they do in game.
Pop Berzerk.
Left click.
Drink potion when needed.

If you are satisfied with this gameplay as a fighter, fine.
Sawyer's probably trying to make everything equally fun - but will probably ran into a wall in RTWP.
Do POE in-game models travel the length of screen in same speed even when wearing equipment of different weights?
But IMO, its about time fighter get some variety.
Do complain if Magic user only has a single firebolt icebolt thunderbolt spell - but I doubt that is the case.

 

[Volourn]

", its about time fighter get some variety. "

About time? You make it sound this is new and POE si the first game to do this. It's not original at all. DND dealt with this along time ago let alone all the non DnD games that have dealt with it as well. FFS

 

[a cut of domestic sheep prime]

ITT people fighting to preserve fantasy tropes like supersmart wizard genius and drooling barbarian idiot while using words like "logic." Keep fighting the good fight guys.

itt people have difficulty defending an obviously illogical design decision, so they build strawmen and tell everyone to ignore it.

No, you faggot, I'm defending against unconstructive criticism, which I even agree with, because it doesn't help. Like I said, what's the point of making the same exact point of criticism over and over and over again? But I admit I'm at fault. Not for defending the system, but criticizing the criticism, which just promotes the criticism because justifiably people think I'm arguing against their opinion rather than arguing against their method of criticism.

So I'll stop that now.

 

[RK47]

Shut up. It's fun to nitpick.
RPGCodex is a small time forum.