Pools of Darkness - race lvl limits wtf?

[octavius]

Another "fun" fact:
Globe of Invulnerability does not protect against Beholders' Slow spells, but it does "protect" against your own Mirror image and Haste spells.

 

[Jaesun]

Mirror image is 2nd level and Hate is 3rd so that seems correct. Apparently Beholders cast a "special" level 5 slow spell?

 

[octavius]

Mirror image is 2nd level and Hate is 3rd so that seems correct. Apparently Beholders cast a "special" level 5 slow spell?

This game really likes to fucking troll me. Mirror Image doesn't protect against the Beholders' Slow spells, but it does "protect" against my own Haste and Blink spells!

And I hereby take back what I've said on other threads that this battle is not that difficult.
Obviously I must have been lucky when I played it on the Amiga.

 

[kmonster]

Which levels are your characters at this final battle ?

 

[octavius]

Which levels are your characters at this final battle ?

31-35 for the since class ones.


Initiative is what determines the outcome of these final battles.
I used Joonas' character editor to give my humans 18 Dex, and it was noticeably easier, and with 18 Dex I won on the second try. On the first try I was victim of Mirror Image working against my own Haste spells. Haste is an area effect spell for fuck's sake and should affect any number of targets within the area!
With 16-17 Dex you need luck to win. As such it reminds me of the last level of Bard's Tale where you where destined to lose if facing certain monsters that always acted first and fried or stoned the whole party.

With 18 Dex most of my guys got to act first in the first battle, but the monsters got lucky with the initiative rolls in the two subsequent battles. Still, I won with only my Mage/Ranger (only one with Blink spell active) as Bruce Willis last man standing.

I have uploaded videoes of the battles to YouTube. My characters are quite different from the usual hacks with -23 AC and 250 HP.

My tactic in the first battle was to go after the Blue Minions first since they nearly always breath lightning and they are vulnerable to Fireballs. Dracoliches often waste their first round casting Charm Person, while there is only about 1/20 chance that the Pets' Disintegrate spells will have effect. The Bits of Moanders' petrify attack has even less chance of working since they also need to hit in melee.
It's important to avoid the Bits tieing up the fighters since the figthers needs to be able to shoot any Minions not hit by the Delayed Blast Fireballs, and then engage the Dracoliches in melee. So I use my mage as a punching bag for the Bits of Moander. He has the best AC and a Fire Shield (Cold) that will damage them heavily if hit.

The last two battles are less tactical.
In the second it's just a matter of killing each Beholder as fast as possible and try to avoid too many characters being hit with Slow spells.
And in the last battle Gothmenes needs to be killed ASAP, since he attacks with a Vorpal Blade, and it's always a good idea to not lose your head.

 

[kmonster]

Did you close the portal at the beginning of the first battle the first battle which gets one character heavily injured but lets you fight far less monsters ?

 

[Alex]

I love the way the beholders all look sad and bored.

 

[commie]

For all the veterans...do you guys give yourselves 18's where available and/or play on max difficulty? I still feel guilty for maxing everything in a POR playthrough back in 1991 though from what has been said here, maxing stats actually can make the game somewhat harder in places due to tougher spawns. What does difficulty really do? I always thought of 'normal' as the level at which everything follows the 'rules'(you and the enemy), but is it really like this?

 

[octavius]

For all the veterans...do you guys give yourselves 18's where available and/or play on max difficulty?

I don't.

I still feel guilty for maxing everything in a POR playthrough back in 1991 though from what has been said here, maxing stats actually can make the game somewhat harder in places due to tougher spawns.

That's only in Pool of Radiance, AFAIK.

What does difficulty really do? I always thought of 'normal' as the level at which everything follows the 'rules'(you and the enemy), but is it really like this?

"Veteran" is the normal or core rules. Lower difficulty means monster have less HP, but they also give less XP when killed, I think. And higher difficulty means more monster HP and more XP.
I always play on the default/normal/core rules.

 

[Jaesun]

Yeah. Giving your characters all 18 stats is gay.

 

[made]

I always figured if the games wanted me to play with suboptimal stats they'd put a limit on them. Can always turn up the difficulty if combat turns out too easy.

"Veteran" is the normal or core rules. Lower difficulty means monster have less HP, but they also give less XP when killed, I think. And higher difficulty means more monster HP and more XP.
I always play on the default/normal/core rules.

I don't recall the other games, but in POR at least higher difficulty than veteran didn't seem to give more XP.

 

[kmonster]

I always maxed the character stats (except some unimportant ones) in the gold box games. Low stats are for players who have too much time, when those games were released they were expensive and had to last for half a year, but now there are so many games to play that I don't want to bother with carrying capacity problems and slow repetitive combat (or increased need to cast enlarge spells) because of low strength, maxing wis for clerics or int for mages also makes the game more comfortable without changing the difficulty, no need to stretch the story and roleplaying elements with even more time spent for random combat encounters or other slowdowns.
You could choose low con for your characters but the pregenerated party in PoD has more hitpoints than a party developed by yourself through the series would have with random rolls at level ups.
It's definitely better maxing your character stats than getting forced to cheat later.
There were many players who couldn't win PoD even at the easiest difficulty with maxed characters in spite of grinding before and cheated.

For getting a roleplaying feeling maxing stats is fine, if you're a strategy expert skilled in finding and exploiting cheesy imbalances in the rules and like even more time spent with combat take lower stats.

 

[Themadcow]

Eh... the combat is one of the best things about the Gold Box games. PoD wasn't exactly hard back in the days before guides and exploits were plastered all over teh interweb.

 

[octavius]

I always maxed the character stats (except some unimportant ones) in the gold box games. Low stats are for players who have too much time, when those games were released they were expensive and had to last for half a year, but now there are so many games to play that I don't want to bother with carrying capacity problems and slow repetitive combat (or increased need to cast enlarge spells) because of low strength, maxing wis for clerics or int for mages also makes the game more comfortable without changing the difficulty, no need to stretch the story and roleplaying elements with even more time spent for random combat encounters or other slowdowns.
You could choose low con for your characters but the pregenerated party in PoD has more hitpoints than a party developed by yourself through the series would have with random rolls at level ups.
It's definitely better maxing your character stats than getting forced to cheat later.
There were many players who couldn't win PoD even at the easiest difficulty with maxed characters in spite of grinding before and cheated.

It has little to do with role playing, but more with providing a challenge, making items like Gauntlets of Ogre Strength actually matter and having characters with strengths and weaknesses that complement each other.
Maxing out stats and HP and removing the challenge is just one step away from hitting the "Awesome Button".

The only areas of the Pool series where I felt my characters were underpowered was in the Drow caves in CoAB, the Dragons' Aerie in Pools and the end game of Pools. Even the final battles of Pools could be won by my subpar characters (which I did when I played it first time on the Amiga), but it would have taken some tries to be lucky with initiative. As it was I only has to increase the DEX of my characters by 1-2 points, and make sure I understood the rules governing Mirror Image and Globe of Invulnerability, before the final battle was not too hard.

That people couldn't finish it even with maxed or even hex editing stats, and lowering difficulty, that is just plain sad.

For getting a roleplaying feeling maxing stats is fine, if you're a strategy expert skilled in finding and exploiting cheesy imbalances in the rules and like even more time spent with combat take lower stats.

And what "cheesy imbalances in the rules" is that excactly that you accuse me of exploiting?

 

[kmonster]

It has little to do with role playing, but more with providing a challenge, making items like Gauntlets of Ogre Strength actually matter and having characters with strengths and weaknesses that complement each other.
Maxing out stats and HP and removing the challenge is just one step away from hitting the "Awesome Button".

The only areas of the Pool series where I felt my characters were underpowered was in the Drow caves in CoAB, the Dragons' Aerie in Pools and the end game of Pools. Even the final battles of Pools could be won by my subpar characters (which I did when I played it first time on the Amiga), but it would have taken some tries to be lucky with initiative. As it was I only has to increase the DEX of my characters by 1-2 points, and make sure I understood the rules governing Mirror Image and Globe of Invulnerability, before the final battle was not too hard.

That people couldn't finish it even with maxed or even hex editing stats, and lowering difficulty, that is just plain sad.

And what "cheesy imbalances in the rules" is that excactly that you accuse me of exploiting?

It wasn't directed specially at you, it's just that some games are so difficult that they drive the average player into cheese or giving up. Even you gave up on trying the final battles without adjusting difficulty or stats although you had an imported party which started with better equipment and far more XP, doing more damage with all fireballs and more spells and higher chance to overcome magic resistance than normal.

"Different strengths and weaknesses that complement each other" doesn't require non-maxed stats. There's actually a big imbalance between spellcasting classes and others, without maxed strength it grows even bigger.

 

[octavius]

It wasn't directed specially at you, it's just that some games are so difficult that they drive the average player into cheese or giving up. Even you gave up on trying the final battles without adjusting difficulty or stats although you had an imported party which started with better equipment and far more XP, doing more damage with all fireballs and more spells and higher chance to overcome magic resistance than normal.

"Different strengths and weaknesses that complement each other" doesn't require non-maxed stats. There's actually a big imbalance between spellcasting classes and others, without maxed strength it grows even bigger.

I guess it just boils down to different playing styles.
Some find most enjoyment in maxing stats and HP, grinding and creating the ultimate power party.
I prefer the game to be a constant challenge, so I don't max stats, I don't save scum and I don't rest after each battle. I just don't see the fun in playing a game that is so easy that you can play it on auto-pilot, and the only challenge is the final battle. I'd rather have a game that challenges me most of the game, with a frustrating battle at the end.

Strength is only relevant early in the game, before Enlarge spells give you more than 18(00) STR. At high levels the Enlarge spells give 22 STR and lasts for several hours, which is usually enough time to clear out most dungeons. And even the Enlrage spell is made redundant if you have Girdles of Giant Strength for all your fighters. If you don't rest after every battle, and need to conserve your magic, the differences between the classes grows less, since the mages will have limited amounts of offensive spells, while a fighter will always be effective as long as he's alive.
Personally I also enjoy this strategic aspect of the game where you have to carefully consider if you really want to use a Delayed Blast Fireball now or if it may be better to save it for a tougher battle. Choices and consequences?

But in the end what really matters is what the individual player finds most enjoyable. There is no "right" way to play a single player game. And if a game can be played using wildly different playing styles, I guess that is a strength of the game.

 

[kmonster]

Moving one square in search mode takes 10 minutes, so even the several hours the enlarge spells lasts will be over fast. I don't want to waste my time casting enlarge and stand there overloaded when the spell wears off. There's no skill involved, only slowness and discomfort.
There's no real challenge in random encounters and I don't want to slow them down artificially by limiting spell casting either, there are hundreds of battles which take more than enough time, I can't imagine blowing up the already slow PoD playthrough by 10 hours or more.
Saving less often doesn't make the battles harder, it may add some tension but it mainly causes more annoyance if something goes wrong. I prefer counting reloads.


Btw, are you going to face the additional challenge with your party ?

 

[octavius]

Moving one square in search mode takes 10 minutes, so even the several hours the enlarge spells lasts will be over fast. I don't want to waste my time casting enlarge and stand there overloaded when the spell wears off. There's no skill involved, only slowness and discomfort.
There's no real challenge in random encounters and I don't want to slow them down artificially by limiting spell casting either, there are hundreds of battles which take more than enough time, I can't imagine blowing up the already slow PoD playthrough by 10 hours or more.

Why would you move in Search mode all the time? It increases the chances of random encounters, and in some areas (the Aerie and Moander's Heart) the random encounters are actually more challenging than the fixed encounters.
There are very few hidden doors and traps to find by searching, and in most areas it makes more sense from a role playing perspective to move quickly. I was able to complete most areas in "one go", ie the Enlarge spells were still in effect after having cleared the area. Same with Resist Cold and Resist Fire, meaning you could replace the Rings of protection against Cold and Fire with other rings. But I was annoyed that my guys took 1/4 damage if both being fire resistant and making their saving throws against fire, instead of taking no damage.

Btw, are you going to face the additional challenge with your party ?

Yes, some day.

 

[kmonster]

Why would you move in Search mode all the time? It increases the chances of random encounters, and in some areas (the Aerie and Moander's Heart) the random encounters are actually more challenging than the fixed encounters.
There are very few hidden doors and traps to find by searching, and in most areas it makes more sense from a role playing perspective to move quickly.

When playing I want to find everything in the game and there's quite a lot which can't be found without searching in all gold box games.
And it's better to search all the time than getting stuck, not knowing if it's because you didn't to search a square and having to explore the whole area again in search mode.