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Editorial Rampant Coyote on Dice Rolls and Luck

CappenVarra

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Randomness is divine; to reduce randomness or fudge a roll is to commit blasphemy; the punishment is randomly rolled on a d30 table.

Where's the reading comprehension failure here? You want a game's stat check thresholds to be randomized on character creation, in an otherwise static, deterministic world? I don't see the point - it seems extraneous.
Since I suggested more of exactly the same kind of randomness in some AoD topics, perhaps I can make it clearer: the point is exactly that the world isn't static and deterministic, but each new character plays in a slightly modified parallel universe. In one, the guards are harder to bluff but the merchant is easier to flatter, in another something else is slightly different etc. If you keep the adjustments balanced as Haba said, you end up with small but significant variations that can discourage degenerate player behavior Sawyerize memorizing the exact skill thresholds you need to pass each check. The problem with the AoD implementation is that the variation is too small (1-2 points on a scale of 100 is insignificant); but I understand the design choice to make it such since it's not supposed to be more rogulike-like but more about C&C branching... However, I bet a variation of AoD with at least 10% variation instead of 1% would be even more interesting to play (for me, at least). Dare I suggest it increases the "simulation" aspect of the game and reduces the "pre-defined book-like static experience" aspect? Perhaps, but elaboration will have to wait for another time.
 

Haba

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Where's the reading comprehension failure here?

For most "isolated" skill checks, I'm an advocate of a random factor being calculated at the start of the game and then set in stone (hidden from the player).

No. Your suggestion encourages reloading. Try using the skill, see if you pass. If not, reload and try something else.

Precisely. "Pre-baking" randomness is just a way of telling the player "OK, this is the thing that you must never do. Now reload and try something else." whenever he fails at a specific action.

:bounce:
 

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Where's the reading comprehension failure here?

For most "isolated" skill checks, I'm an advocate of a random factor being calculated at the start of the game and then set in stone (hidden from the player).

No. Your suggestion encourages reloading. Try using the skill, see if you pass. If not, reload and try something else.

Precisely. "Pre-baking" randomness is just a way of telling the player "OK, this is the thing that you must never do. Now reload and try something else." whenever he fails at a specific action.

:bounce:

:hmmm:

Pray tell what is wrong with what I said. The skill check is set in stone. You will never succeed. Reload and try something else. That path is closed to you, at least for now. Of course, if you didn't expend any resources or lose any opportunities from trying to pass the skill check, you don't actually need to reload.
 

Haba

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Tell me how you are precisely more likely to reload when the skill requirement can be 12, 11, 9 or 8 instead of a fixed 10?

In the first place, reloading after failed skill checks is like reloading after losing a character in X-Com or JA - something only degenerate scum do.
 

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Tell me how you are precisely more likely to reload when the skill requirement can be 12, 11, 9 or 8 instead of a fixed 10?

You aren't, but at least the game isn't lying to you with a fake "random" chance to succeed that isn't really random in the sense most people think.

Again, I don't see the point of randomly determining skill check thresholds when the game starts. The game is not a roguelike. It doesn't add anything. It doesn't make the game more interesting if a skill check is slightly different from your previous playthrough.
 

CappenVarra

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Tell me how you are precisely more likely to reload when the skill requirement can be 12, 11, 9 or 8 instead of a fixed 10?

You aren't, but at least the game isn't lying to you with a fake "random" chance to succeed that isn't really random in the sense most people think.

Again, I don't see the point of randomly determining skill check thresholds when the game starts. The game is not a roguelike. It doesn't add anything. It doesn't make the game more interesting if a skill check is slightly different from your previous playthrough.
Does having randomly generated maps in a strategy game add anything compared to always playing on the same map? Of course, RPGs are different and full randomization has so far only been used in roguelikes etc. But it doesn't mean that strategy-game-like moderate randomization and slight unpredictability (as opposed to strawman full randomization I just used) is not a path that needs to be explored by more cRPGs, and emphasized over the dead end that is a fixed (cinematic) narrative. Always having the same skill checks and the same enemies is fundamentally similar to a strategy game that always uses the same map - give a trained monkey a walkthrough and it could "win" it; and where's the fun in that? Sure, there is a bunch of possible issues that need to be solved and you'd need an actual RPG designer/developer to make it work (as opposed to random clowns that can make a Mass Effect 16), but so what? It's a fundamentally sound and interesting idea, and I don't get why you're so hell-bent on hating/dismissing it.
 

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Does having randomly generated maps in a strategy game add anything compared to always playing on the same map?

It does, but maps != skill check thresholds

Skill check thresholds just aren't really important. They're not something memorable that you play with or play in. Why add unnecessary complexity where it's not needed?
 

CappenVarra

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Does having randomly generated maps in a strategy game add anything compared to always playing on the same map?

It does, but maps != skill check thresholds

Skill check thresholds just aren't really important. They're not something memorable that you play with or play in. Why add unnecessary complexity where it's not needed?
Well, if skill checks are so irrelevant in Game X that designing them intelligently is not worth the effort, why does the game have them in the first place? Can't it just replace them with attribute checks and call it a day? And I don't know which Game X were you talking about (P:E?) in a general discussion about dice rolls and luck, but I was talking about AoD in my example - where skill check thresholds are the "map". Righty O Ol' Chap?
 

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but I was talking about AoD in my example - where skill check thresholds are the "map". Righty O Ol' Chap?

If they're the "map", then you'd need to change them AS A WHOLE, in a way that keeps the game balanced. A full skill check rebalancing algorithm.

Applying a random +10%/-10% change to each skill check individually is worthless. That's analogous to taking a map in a strategy game and randomly planting hills or valleys every ten squares, or something like that.
 

CappenVarra

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If they're the "map", then you'd need to change them AS A WHOLE, in a way that keeps the game balanced. A full skill check rebalancing algorithm.

Applying a random +10%/-10% change to each skill check individually is worthless. That's analogous to taking a map in a strategy game and randomly planting hills or valleys every ten squares, or something like that.
If hills and valleys have a mechanical in-game difference (like, say, in Alpha Centauri), it's not worthless.

Also, the re-balancing has already been addressed:
Possibly one would have to balance the adjustments overall so that you can't end up with +2 in every check for the rest of the game if you get unlucky, but that is rather trivial to do.

In one, the guards are harder to bluff but the merchant is easier to flatter, in another something else is slightly different etc. If you keep the adjustments balanced as Haba said, you end up with small but significant variations that can discourage degenerate player behavior Sawyerize memorizing the exact skill thresholds you need to pass each check.
 

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That's not the kind of balance I'm referring to. You'd need to make significant changes to the thresholds, in a way that changes the gameplay experience significantly. Otherwise, what's the point?

Doing both that and keeping them balanced at the same time would definitely be NON-trivial.

Of course, even if you managed that, it would no doubt conflict with the game's actual plot/writing. Suddenly an easily persuadable tavern oaf has become extremely difficult to persuade because his skill check been rebalanced.

If hills and valleys have a mechanical in-game difference (like, say, in Alpha Centauri), it's not worthless.

Really? So that's your idea of good random map generation?
 

CappenVarra

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I know you're not that dense, so I'll assume you're just hell-bent on keeping your previous opinion on the topic intact. The discussion train has left the building...
 

Karmapowered

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About Sawyer's take on encouraging the player to continue playing rather than reloading, I'd support it. That's a mild progress on C&C. Assuming the system is well done, unskilled players will (chose to) be punished, be it even by reduced penalties, whereas till now they virtually didn't exist by the virtue of reloading after a failure.

About generating random numbers and storing them before the game actually needs them, well... AFAIK Japanese game designers have attempted to go that route for quite some time already, and it hasn't prevented people from abusing their systems (Fire Emblem comes to my mind). It's maybe an improvement, but not a solution.

The thing is that modern game designers still haven't understood (or rather refuse to acknowledge) is that some of the randomness (let's call it the "bad" randomness) was historically used to substitute for a failing/absent AI :
  • what kind of enemies would the player face once inside the dungeon ? Dice throw.
  • how would the enemies deploy ? Dice throw
  • how would the enemies fight once confronted to the player ? Dice throw.
  • ...

If a game has a good AI, and any modern game should, these dice throws aren't needed.

This "bad" randomness would then be inherent to the quality and challenge level of its AI. On MEDIUM (normal), it could order Orcs to block a passage from the North, have Goblins shoot from a passage to the W, and Kobolds sneak in from a passage to the South for a backstab. On EASY, it would "fail" to organize its troops in anything but a chaotic melee, or fail to send out scouting parties to avoid being ambushed by the player. Hobgoblin shamans would use their spells in a less than optimal fashion, never buffing. On HARD, enemies would know how to fight in formations, and call in for reinforcements if the AI "feels" that the player is about to retreat. Spells would be used to yield maximum hassle and pain for the player.

The result of the battle would also not suffer from "random" outcomes. If the player is skilled, he/she should always win, in the opposite case, they should always lose, till he/she adapts, and learns how to become skilled at the game.

The other kind of randomness would still be needed, to simulate actions (skill checks, attack rolls, etc.) executed by in-game actors in lieu of the player, for example (since not every video-game is action-oriented). Still, an untrained goblin fledgeling should not be able to kill a highly skilled knight thanks to a lucky crit, a newbie rogue should not be able to pick highly complex locks even if they spent hours clicking on the "retry" button.

One can see that even that kind of "tolerable" randomness should be limited whenever possible, which is what actually happens with the human presence of a "DM" in P&P parties. This then leads to quite predictable results, statistically always the same provided the input ( = player skill ) is the same.

Chess games is a good example, because there is no randomness in the game, no dice throws whatsoever, yet there isn't a single game that looks like another, and the result is almost guaranteed to be favorable to the more skilled on the long run. A vastly rewarding, challenging and fun game to me.

Finally, about games played to be "won", indeed, but games shouldn't be designed to let the player win easily. A good AI helps with that, not any variable amount of randomness here or there.



TL;DR : My guts tell me that the less random a game, the better it is.
 

J1M

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A more sensible solution to accomplish the same thing is to randomly give the player some skill boosts after the opening vignette to represent their background life experiences. That way your ability to do certain things is altered (which some have claimed is desirable) but the in-game clues as to how difficult different things are to do remain sensible.
 

Dorateen

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In addition, dice and dice rolls are emblematic of pnp, and by extension, cRPG. For the digital medium, it's random number generators. I suspect there are people out there who have an agenda to move away from this bedrock concept, trying to take the RPG genre in wild new directions. Those people can sit on a plunger.
 

Karmapowered

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Dice and dice rolls are emblematic of pnp

Funny that you mention that, since I distinctly remember some of my first tabletop RPGs being played without any dice, but I can get that. When the nostalgia kicks in, even I get the craving to throw a pair of them, just to check if they still make the same sound than before, rolling all over the table.

and by extension, cRPG.

Again, there historically was a good reason for that, but cRPGs are slowly shifting away from that paradigm.

What's wrong with that ?

I can't recall any cRPG in which the chargen forced me to roll the stats, the starting gear, the background, the hps at level up, etc., to be more ultimately more satisfying than their non-random counter-parts.

Would you tolerate puny critters to double/triple crit your powerful warrior, maiming him for the rest of the game, just because the RNG decided so ?

People spend more time bypassing the "random" effects of some games than actually learning to master their mechanics. How is that a good thing ?

For the digital medium, it's random number generators. I suspect there are people out there who have an agenda to move away from this bedrock concept, trying to take the RPG genre in wild new directions. Those people can sit on a plunger.

While some randomness will always be needed in a game, because of its very nature, less random = good. I still am looking for an argument that challenges that opinion, other than "itz tradition" or "it's just cool to have".
 
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While some randomness will always be needed in a game, because of its very nature, less random = good. I still am looking for an argument that challenges that opinion, other than "itz tradition" or "it's just cool to have".
The dice add some unpredictability, it's just simulating an aspect of life.
 

Karmapowered

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The dice add some unpredictability, it's just simulating an aspect of life.

Okay, I am willing to listen (and why not be convinced), but answer me this first :

In a video-game, which is more fun to you :
  • Diablo-style fighting, where all the hits will connect (but can be resisted, countered, etc.)
  • D&D-style fighting, where some hits can miss and never connect, because of a failed dice roll ?
 

FeelTheRads

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Which is more fun to you in a video-game :
  • Diablo-style fighting, where all the hits will connect (but can be resisted, countered, etc.)
  • D&D-style fighting, where some hits can miss and never connect, because of a failed dice roll ?

Is this even a question? "D&D-style", obviously.
 

Dorateen

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Dice and dice rolls are emblematic of pnp

Funny that you mention that, since I distinctly remember some of my first tabletop RPGs being played without any dice, but I can get that. When the nostalgia kicks in, even I get the craving to throw a pair of them, just to check if they still make the same sound than before, rolling all over the table.

and by extension, cRPG.

Again, there historically was a good reason for that, but cRPGs are slowly shifting away from that paradigm.

What's wrong with that ?

While some randomness will always be needed in a game, because of its very nature, less random = good. I still am looking for an argument that challenges that opinion, other than "itz tradition" or "it's just cool to have".

There are always exceptions, of course, but the first tabletop games I played all used dice. I'm not talking about only D&D. The various alternative games TSR and other publishers were putting out during the early PnP craze, used dice as well. I can only comment based on experience I've had. And to me, a RPG includes dice. The 20-sider is iconic.

You mentioned cRPGs shifting away from the older paradigm... that is exactly why I am voicing opposition. Pay no mind to me, it's a personal crusade.

The fact that you think a shift away from a PnP framework is good, and statements such as less random is better, means we are approaching the subject from very different places. For the record, I haven't read any reason why less randomization/unpredictability/luck is better. The premise of removing even some of it from a classic RPG strikes me as bizarre. The counter arguement could be interpreted as change merely for the sake of change, implementing new systems just to be different, which is equally invalid.
 

Roguey

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Okay, I am willing to listen (and why not be convinced), but answer me this first :

In a video-game, which is more fun to you :
  • Diablo-style fighting, where all the hits will connect (but can be resisted, countered, etc.)
  • D&D-style fighting, where some hits can miss and never connect, because of a failed dice roll ?
I'm going to be pedantic here and point out that Diablo 1/2 have attack rolls and it's only Diablo 3 that doesn't: http://www.diablowiki.net/Attack_Rating
 
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The dice add some unpredictability, it's just simulating an aspect of life.

Okay, I am willing to listen (and why not be convinced), but answer me this first :

In a video-game, which is more fun to you :
  • Diablo-style fighting, where all the hits will connect (but can be resisted, countered, etc.)
  • D&D-style fighting, where some hits can miss and never connect, because of a failed dice roll ?
The second, though not necessarily "D&D-style" because it sucks. There are other dice-roll methods, you know.
 

Metro

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Aren't resists, glancing blows, etc. just another form of 'dice roll?'
 

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