Editorial Realism vs. What Designers Care About

[Awor Szurkrarz]

That's why armored cavalry started discarding pieces as firearms became more prevalent, until they ended up with the classic cuirassier (wearing just a plate cuiriass and possibly a helmet) that hung around until WW1.

Actually, plate armour was introduced after firearms started appearing on battlefields. Armour got discarded when rifled firearms appeared whose bullets couldn't be reliably stopped by armour of reasonable weigh.

 

[MetalCraze]

Generally, these arguments come from players, or from non-designers, or less experienced designers, and will take the form of, "But XXXX isn't realistic!" or "Realistically, YYYY should happen instead". And, frequently, experienced game designers will turn around and say "Who cares?" and merrily go on their way designing an "unrealistic" system.

Experienced designers also don't work at Obsidian, so it's pretty ironic, eh Nathaniel?

 

[PorkaMorka]

That's why armored cavalry started discarding pieces as firearms became more prevalent, until they ended up with the classic cuirassier (wearing just a plate cuiriass and possibly a helmet) that hung around until WW1.

Actually, plate armour was introduced after firearms started appearing on battlefields. Armour got discarded when rifled firearms appeared whose bullets couldn't be reliably stopped by armour of reasonable weigh.

Negative.

a) Plate armor has been around since antiquity, certainly well before firearms.

b) Even the arquebus could penetrate plate armor at combat ranges (which were relatively short due to the lack of accuracy). This was a big change and lead to people shedding some of their armor, going to three quarter plate etc, as well as mostly unsuccessful attempts at bulletproof plate.

At long range, plate could stop an arquebus round, but if it did so at closer ranges, ranges where the combat took place, it did so only unreliably.

This vulnerability only increased by the time muskets were on the scene, which is why armor had been so drastically scaled back to a (at times reinforced) cuirass.

The cuirass was worn mostly for protection against the swords and light lances of other cavalry, not for protection against close range firearms.

Rifled firearms made armor even less useful of course, but firearms were a revolution in warfare well before rifled ones were in common use.

 

[Topher]

M1A1 is "Modern Armor" not "Armor".

Anyway, the standard scenario for spearmen to defeat tanks is a bunch of fortified spearmen sitting in a city.

1000 spearmen dug in close/urban terrain could easily destroy some WW2 style tanks, using molotov cocktails and various mechanical means to immobilize them.

It's not like the spearmen are much worse off than riflemen who weren't supplied with anti tank weapons in this regard...

Attacking with unsupported tanks into urban terrain is a nightmare for the tanks in terms of spotting.

Ethiopians in the 1930s famously defeated Italian tanks by rolling boulders on them to immobilize them, prying open the hatches and/or pouring gasoline on them and setting them alight.

But in a built up city you'd just need the gasoline.

Aren't we talking about early game speaman here? I wanna know what kind of awesome spearmen have molotov cocktails and gasoline.

 

[Azrael the cat]

If by no other method than having more bodies than the tank has bullets at minimum, though taking advantage of the fact that the tank can only fire in one direction and flanking it so the other guys can get on it from behind and kill the guys inside with their spears would be the better choice.

More like the tank would kill a few dozen and rest would run in terror as the fearsome metal beast destroys everything in its path. You can't assume a modern level of knowledge from some archaic spearmen so they would have no idea how to attack a tank.

The power balance between the units in Civ games was always whacked; mods do it much better (ie., older units have virtually no chances against newer ones. In my last game I conquered Ethiopia, who were still with spearmen and the like, with a handful of infantry units. They must've had 50+ total units in defense and I annihilated them )

I agree with your general point, but to play Devil's Advocate, how about the various times where a poorly armed indigenous insurgency has fought an impressive guerilla resistance against a far superior equipped western military. I'm thinking the native american resistance in particular.

Or, if you want an example where the natives with spears actually DEFEATED the westerners with guns and artillery (well, fought to a draw anyway, the war was at a total standstill and so the sides signed a treaty)...New Zealand!

The Maoris basically pwned massively superior numbers and massively superior tech, and the english stayed in it to eke out a standstill basically by swamping the place with more and more troops. Essentially, the Maoris invented trench warfare, making the artillery less effective and forcing the British to fight at close range, where the Maoris would smash them (by comparison, the British forces were used to having the advantage in melee even versus tribal armies - see the Zulu wars for example - as they were adept at Bayonet fighting and their Bayonets would usually be better quality melee weapons than the wooden spears that African/Australian natives used - it was no small tactical victory that the Maoris could guarantee on any close-range fight going their way).

Of course, it didn't hurt that the southern island (where the British couldn't penetrate) is about 80% mountains - lots of dragging artillery up to the top of mountains only for Maori guerilla raids to wreck them and force the Brits to wait in the snow for new artillery to arrive.

And it REALLY didn't hurt that Maori's have a weird tendency to measure about 5 foot across the shoulders and be built like oversized Urukhai. Nor did it hurt that the Maoris had spent most of their pre-British-wars history fighting each other, and devising war-dances that still pretty much make their rugby opponents shit their pants (friends of mine in the military say they're even scarier when they do it in the army - the Maoris adopted the NZ military as a legitimate 'Maori tribe' under their traditional god of war, and when they do that chest-raking thing in the hakka, they're expected to actually draw blood with each chest-rake).

 

[RK47]

Attribute that Maori's victory to terrain familiarity resulting in increased attack and movement speed. This works up to a point in Civ IV's troop promotions. Early Roman civ can really wreck everything apart by picking City raider promotions and sack dozen of towns with impunity in early game. The only reliable counter is massed axemen specially trained in Melee combat.

 

[zeitgeist]

Aren't we talking about early game speaman here? I wanna know what kind of awesome spearmen have molotov cocktails and gasoline.

Well they could just do the boulder thing, pry open the hatches, and spear them to death instead. They have to have some boulders lying around somewhere.

 

[PorkaMorka]

Aren't we talking about early game speaman here? I wanna know what kind of awesome spearmen have molotov cocktails and gasoline.

Ones that live right next to an advanced empire with tanks (and thus cars).

Person to person level trading would still have been going on, unless the spear level empire didn't have any contacts with the rest of the world.

Gasoline and alcohol in bottles would be among the most desirable trading goods and that's all you need for a molotov, along with some locally produced textiles.

And people who don't understand technology are still capable of understanding the idea behind it, see the age old concept of "Greek fire".

 

[KalosKagathos]

In my last game I conquered Ethiopia, who were still with spearmen and the like, with a handful of infantry units. They must've had 50+ total units in defense and I annihilated them

I take it you weren't playing Italy, huh?

 

[MasterSmithFandango]

That is the biggest fuck up in modern warfare. Fucking lame ass Italians.

 

[Drakron]

b) Even the arquebus could penetrate plate armor at combat ranges (which were relatively short due to the lack of accuracy). This was a big change and lead to people shedding some of their armor, going to three quarter plate etc, as well as mostly unsuccessful attempts at bulletproof plate.

Well the Crossbow could do it as well, that is why the Pope banned it as peasants could easy killed heavily armored nobles, Longbows could do it as well but they required far more training.

 

[Raghar]

Actually spearmen are just people who are going to forest in theirs work clothes that are supposing to protect them against wild animals in that natural preserve they are working in.

Considering they don't have firearm they can be called civilians under Geneva convention. (You know they are something like firemen...)

Now these people in tank will not stay in tanks forever, and when they would leave a well placed stone against theirs neck would suffice...

Other than that, digging. Tank that is flipped over is significantly less dangerous.

BTW from where are these tanks getting theirs fuel?

 

[hanssolo]

because

 

[Norfleet]

1000 spearmen dug in close/urban terrain could easily destroy some WW2 style tanks, using molotov cocktails and various mechanical means to immobilize them.

That's not "1000 spearmen". That's "1000 guys who know what a tank is and just happen to be carrying spears for non-spearman-related purposes". At this point, the unit is more closely modelled by Irregulars, Militia, or Guerrillas. SPEARMEN are an ancient unit that believe a tank is some kind of horrible dragon and are trained to fight in spear formations that make them ideal for mass-flattening by said dragon. They certainly know nothing about improvising molotov cocktails.

On the flipside, I find the idea that a tank can be given the "City Raider" promotion in Civ 4 to be laughable, since tanks are nearly useless in urban combat environments.

 

[Drakron]

On the flipside, I find the idea that a tank can be given the "City Raider" promotion in Civ 4 to be laughable, since tanks are nearly useless in urban combat environments.

Depends, as a defender they can just be dug in into collapsed buildings and you have a little bunker with nifty cannon.

As a attacker it sucks as portable anti-armor weapons can screw with them as the defenders will certainly not lack cover but its not as if you have a choice as you need fire support for your infantry.

 

[J1M]

1000 spearmen dug in close/urban terrain could easily destroy some WW2 style tanks, using molotov cocktails and various mechanical means to immobilize them.

That's not "1000 spearmen". That's "1000 guys who know what a tank is and just happen to be carrying spears for non-spearman-related purposes". At this point, the unit is more closely modelled by Irregulars, Militia, or Guerrillas. SPEARMEN are an ancient unit that believe a tank is some kind of horrible dragon and are trained to fight in spear formations that make them ideal for mass-flattening by said dragon. They certainly know nothing about improvising molotov cocktails.

On the flipside, I find the idea that a tank can be given the "City Raider" promotion in Civ 4 to be laughable, since tanks are nearly useless in urban combat environments.

It doesn't say 1000 stupid spear men. Digging holes or fighting in a marsh isn't exactly hard or a special tactic that's not useful in other situations.

 

[Drakron]

It says "urban terrain".

You have access to gasoline then what the hell are you doing with spears? you might as well arm then with crossbows (that still see some use in modern armies, believe it or not) as they would be far better with that and not with long pointy sticks.

 

[MadnessOfTheKwa]

1000 spearmen dug in close/urban terrain could easily destroy some WW2 style tanks, using molotov cocktails and various mechanical means to immobilize them.

That's not "1000 spearmen". That's "1000 guys who know what a tank is and just happen to be carrying spears for non-spearman-related purposes". At this point, the unit is more closely modelled by Irregulars, Militia, or Guerrillas. SPEARMEN are an ancient unit that believe a tank is some kind of horrible dragon and are trained to fight in spear formations that make them ideal for mass-flattening by said dragon. They certainly know nothing about improvising molotov cocktails.

On the flipside, I find the idea that a tank can be given the "City Raider" promotion in Civ 4 to be laughable, since tanks are nearly useless in urban combat environments.

It doesn't say 1000 stupid spear men. Digging holes or fighting in a marsh isn't exactly hard or a special tactic that's not useful in other situations.

So 1000 spearmen who have no regard for their own lives, no overpowering awe at facing technology that completely dumbfounds them, and who instantly grasp how this alien technology works and how to deal with it, and work in perfect unison with a military tradition of discipline not normally seen in people wielding spears?

Sure, they will have no trouble with tanks, but probably such a group would come into being only from the smashed remains of the first 99000 spearmen who were routed and systematically slaughtered.