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Reject Modernity: Embrace Tradition

Joined
Mar 28, 2014
Messages
4,234
RPG Wokedex Strap Yourselves In
Fighter - He fights.
Wizard - Casts spells.
Paladin - Remove regular spells. Supernatural charisma-based abilities only. Auras, smites, supernatural inspiration, inquisitor-ish debuffs.
Rogue - Utility and stealth. Positioning. To make work it requires your game not to be a total popamole.

Ranger and barbarian - They can be fighter subclasses...?
Druid - Should be some caster subclass.
Bard - Bard should be just an occupation. Not every singing guy casts spells. Maybe add some kind of skald caster subclass instead.

I have to think about cleric and other casters.

IMO it would make sense for clerics to mechanically work like bards. Utilizing prayer's instead of instruments. It makes more sense for guy to stand and pray during the fight and providing passive divine support of his deity than for some bozo to make everyone fight better because he just sings so damn well. Also it's more natural than priest casting X spells every day like wizards do.
 

FriendlyMerchant

Guest
Fighter - He fights.
Wizard - Casts spells.
Paladin - Remove regular spells. Supernatural charisma-based abilities only. Auras, smites, supernatural inspiration, inquisitor-ish debuffs.
Rogue - Utility and stealth. Positioning. To make work it requires your game not to be a total popamole.

Ranger and barbarian - They can be fighter subclasses...?
Druid - Should be some caster subclass.
Bard - Bard should be just an occupation. Not every singing guy casts spells. Maybe add some kind of skald caster subclass instead.

I have to think about cleric and other casters.

IMO it would make sense for clerics to mechanically work like bards. Utilizing prayer's instead of instruments. It makes more sense for guy to stand and pray during the fight and providing passive divine support of his deity than for some bozo to make everyone fight better because he just sings so damn well. Also it's more natural than priest casting X spells every day like wizards do.
Their chanting does raise the morale of your troops...
tVzTZS0.jpg
 

Cryomancer

Arcane
Glory to Ukraine
Joined
Jul 11, 2019
Messages
17,061
Location
Frostfell
I snap my fingers and make everything in this room explode = button awesome

Yep. Because there are no other spells except fireball, an Wizard can't cast dominate undead into the evil lich minion to try to get the philactery location, can't cast invisibility in the party rogue and enlarge the barbarian, can't disguise himself and the party to infiltrate into enemy base and fireball is just a button that the magic user presses, he don't need to study, get the scroll, learn the spell, prepare the spell, recite the incantations, worry about hitting his own party and the structural damage(...)

Sarcasm aside, my more interesting P&P character was an Chaotic Good Athasian(Dark Sun) Wizard specialized in transformation who wanted to develop constructs to end slavery and in Athas, throwing fireballs left and right is a easy way to be hunted as everyone hates magicians. If you can't disguise your spells as psionics, don't even cast if someone is seeing.

In everquest, I would rank the caster classes as : Necromancer > Magician > Enchanter > Wizard. Wizard is all about AoE destruction. Enchanter is all about illusions, charms, buffs, debuffs, etc. Magician all about conjuring pets, conjuring items and few DD spells. Necromancers, about damage over time and other persistent spells, you can sacrifice someone to ressurect another, siphon enemy life, dominate undead(enchanter can dominate everything), poison the enemy, blood magic, etc.
 
Joined
Mar 28, 2014
Messages
4,234
RPG Wokedex Strap Yourselves In
Yep. Because there are no other spells except fireball, an Wizard can't cast dominate undead into the evil lich minion to try to get the philactery location, can't cast invisibility in the party rogue and enlarge the barbarian, can't disguise himself and the party to infiltrate into enemy base

So he has more than one button awesome.

fireball is just a button that the magic user presses, he don't need to study, get the scroll, learn the spell, prepare the spell, recite the incantations, worry about hitting his own party and the structural damage(...)

You can just select it on level-up.
 

ERYFKRAD

Barbarian
Patron
Joined
Sep 25, 2012
Messages
29,882
Strap Yourselves In Serpent in the Staglands Shadorwun: Hong Kong Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag. Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
I snap my fingers and make everything in this room explode = button awesome

Yep. Because there are no other spells except fireball, an Wizard can't cast dominate undead into the evil lich minion to try to get the philactery location, can't cast invisibility in the party rogue and enlarge the barbarian, can't disguise himself and the party to infiltrate into enemy base and fireball is just a button that the magic user presses, he don't need to study, get the scroll, learn the spell, prepare the spell, recite the incantations, worry about hitting his own party and the structural damage(...)
If your caster can effectively nullify any drawback then you might as well call it a win then and there and go home.
 

The Limper

Educated
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Apr 24, 2021
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Wishing I was back in Cheesesteak Heaven

Robotigan

Learned
Joined
Jan 18, 2022
Messages
420
There's actually very little lore reason for mages and clerics to be distinct classes. It's a cultural artifact from the dominant religion at the time and place where RPGs were first being designed. Christianity's compulsion to distinguish itself from pagan evils just sort of seeped into the public unconscious. But as far as game design goes, a dedicated support class has been discovered to add an interesting element to battle tactics. The holy trinity (pardon the pun) of classes is more like ranged, melee, and support.
 

Robotigan

Learned
Joined
Jan 18, 2022
Messages
420
Just about everyone has an idea of what classes should be. Some people prefer them to be very wide and far reaching, with as few classes as possible but perhaps lots of sub-classes, kits or whatever you have in your game to differentiate members of the classes. Others want to have as many classes as you have different roles in the game world; "cleric" could be a class, but so could be "priest", "shaman", "monastic" and what have you. Personally, I think these aren't necessarily opposed actually.

One idea I've toyed with, but didn't really finish was a derivative game out of DCC RPG. In that system, characters would choose one of three possible, very generic classes. Each of these classes would represent one of the important gameplay aspects out of this kind of game; a "fighter" class would be focused on combat (in all the forms it might take in the game, such as one on one, group combat, mass combat, etc), a "magic user" class that would focus on... well, magic, and an "explorer" or "thief" class that would focus on the exploration aspect of the game. Note that these three are particularly geared to the kind of game D&D is. Games with focus on different activities could have different classes as well. In particular, a game like Shadowrun would justify there being a "face" class, that would focus in social interaction and manipulation. A game like CoC would justify an investigator class, since gathering clues is a very important activity in those, etc.

The point here is that these classes aren't concrete parts of the setting. They are abstract aspects of the gameplay the game and the DM has in mind. Which is why they are given rather generic names. Their implementation is likewise, abstract. Having a class and levels in it wouldn't, in this system, actually give you any kind of concrete ability. You don't get sword proficiency for being a level 6 fighter, for instance. Nor do you get access to new spells for levelling up as a magic-user, neither does your explorer class give you access to a disarm traps skill. Rather, these classes would give you bonuses and safety nets for doing abilities that are within their domain. A level 4 fighter might, for instance, re-roll a failed attack roll twice a day. While a level 5 magic user might be able to avoid a critical failure for casting a level 3 spell once per day.
What you and the OP have stumbled upon is a little something called "game design". A mythical phrase RPG players ponder only but rarely. The tendency for RPGs to add billions of classes, subclasses, skills, feats, traits, hybrid-classes, races, etc. has more to do with roleplayers' desire for self-expression than an interest in balance and intriguing gameplay. I shouldn't be so patronizing, self-expression is literally the point of roleplaying games. Suffice to say, I think designers should follow a model closer to what you describe. Break up the game into abstract conceptual classes and rationalize their tactical roles purely in gameplay terms. Then figure out how all the flavors of roleplay slot into those base classes.
 
Joined
Jan 14, 2018
Messages
50,754
Codex Year of the Donut
The issues with crpg thieves is that they don't steal.

Gary Gygax said:
The thief is a strong archetype in fantasy and adventure stories in general. The main drawback to having one in the party was...theft! Otherwise, we always appreciated a thief PC being able to scout ahead, check for and remove traps, pick locks, cimb up where the rest of the PCs couldn't reach easily, and even pop out of shadows to strike a dangerous opponent for added damage.

As encounters became more complex and dangerous, the party's thief became a lot more in demand. Just being able to have a member go ahead, see what was awaiting, and return to warn the other PCs was often the difference between success and failure.

Thief characters that prospered understoon that their purloining had to be kept to a reasonably modest "extra share," or else the other PC would grab them, turn them upside hown, and shake them :D Of course when I was DMing I did my best to encoutrage thieves to be greedy, so as to give the party problems from within, that seeming logical when they had a sneaky stealer of wealth along
 

Zed Duke of Banville

Dungeon Master
Patron
Joined
Oct 3, 2015
Messages
13,138
There's actually very little lore reason for mages and clerics to be distinct classes. It's a cultural artifact from the dominant religion at the time and place where RPGs were first being designed. Christianity's compulsion to distinguish itself from pagan evils just sort of seeped into the public unconscious. But as far as game design goes, a dedicated support class has been discovered to add an interesting element to battle tactics. The holy trinity (pardon the pun) of classes is more like ranged, melee, and support.
Inspirations for the cleric class are distinct from the inspirations for the magic-user class. One of the two main sources was the sort of vampire-hunter / monster-hunter type of character found in many horror films of the 1950s and 1960s, which explains the presence of items such as wolfsbane, garlic, stakes with mallet, and holy water in the (relatively short) equipment list for original Dungeons & Dragons in 1974, and also why clerics possess a turn undead ability using their holy symbol. The other main source was the representation of Christian clergymen in Arthurian/Carolingian legends and similar fantasy literature, which explains why clerical spells are Biblical in origin, and also why clerics are prohibited from using edged weapons.

The original D&D rulebooks even contained an illustration of an adventuring party with the cleric bearing a cross as his holy symbol:
Party.png
 

FriendlyMerchant

Guest

Sarcasm aside, my more interesting P&P character was an Chaotic Good Athasian(Dark Sun) Wizard specialized in transformation who wanted to develop constructs to end slavery and in Athas, throwing fireballs left and right is a easy way to be hunted as everyone hates magicians. If you can't disguise your spells as psionics, don't even cast if someone is seeing.
What a foolish goy. If I were him, I would've simply used Illusion magic to gather a horde of knife-wielding Simians to get my way. When you have that many monkeys, anything is possible.
 

Cryomancer

Arcane
Glory to Ukraine
Joined
Jul 11, 2019
Messages
17,061
Location
Frostfell
If your caster can effectively nullify any drawback then you might as well call it a win then and there and go home.

Sadly modern RPG's are taking off drawbacks and hindrances for magic users, instead of putting more. 5E even took prohibited school out and evoker don't need to worry about damaging himself and his companions. IMO magic should be riskier. If the caster are casting an fireball and got interrupted by an barbarian throwing throwing an axe into the caster, it should blow up in the caster's hands. And very destructive spells like meteor swarm should take multiple turns to cast. Summoning demons should be extremely more dangerous.


Sarcasm aside, my more interesting P&P character was an Chaotic Good Athasian(Dark Sun) Wizard specialized in transformation who wanted to develop constructs to end slavery and in Athas, throwing fireballs left and right is a easy way to be hunted as everyone hates magicians. If you can't disguise your spells as psionics, don't even cast if someone is seeing.
What a foolish goy. If I were him, I would've simply used Illusion magic to gather a horde of knife-wielding Simians to get my way. When you have that many monkeys, anything is possible.

Yep. Illusion/Enchantment is great, but the gnome merchant guild don't sell this scrolls to non gnomes, only slaves and other scrolls. And in Athas, spell scrolls are extremely rare, expensive and hard to find. You can't go to the local shop and buy scrolls in a freaking desert where everyone hates magic users.
 
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FriendlyMerchant

Guest


Sarcasm aside, my more interesting P&P character was an Chaotic Good Athasian(Dark Sun) Wizard specialized in transformation who wanted to develop constructs to end slavery and in Athas, throwing fireballs left and right is a easy way to be hunted as everyone hates magicians. If you can't disguise your spells as psionics, don't even cast if someone is seeing.
What a foolish goy. If I were him, I would've simply used Illusion magic to gather a horde of knife-wielding Simians to get my way. When you have that many monkeys, anything is possible.

Yep. Illusion/Enchantment is great, but the gnome merchant guild don't sell this scrolls to non gnomes, only slaves and other scrolls. And in Athas, spell scrolls are extremely rare, expensive and hard to find. You can't go to the local shop and buy scrolls in a freaking desert where everyone hates magic users.
You would think that a talented magic user would have more motivation and creativity. Allow me to spell it out... you see, about fifteen years ago, I was employed by a mage of no small caliber. Golodon the Unmanned was his name. Good teeth. Nice smell. Vicious streak a mile wide. He couldn't have children, of course. Nasty cone of cold accident, you see. Regardless, his tower wasn't far from Athkatla, and I managed to gain employment with the old elf for a while. Mondays were particularly amusing. Golodon would start the day off by summoning an imp. He'd usually spend three or four hours making it run around the room barking like a dog. But, as it was with Golodon, he soon tired of the sport. He had a beautiful mastiff named Buffy. Her diet consisted almost entirely of imps. Imp doesn't taste half bad when it's fried with a bit of garlic and butter. Goes well with turnips too. Oh, right. So anyway, Golodon's ex-wife lived no more than two hundred paces from the mage's tower. My primary job was poisoning her food, though occasionally I'd have to clean up Buffy's excrement. She had managed to build quite the resistance to mandrake. Golodon's ex-wife, that is, not the dog. It was truly a magical time in my life. I haven't been as happy poisoning someone since then. I was also, of course, poisoning Golodon on his ex-wife's behalf. She did pay handsomely. Word has it that Golodon has finally kicked the bucket, if you get my drift. Died of malaria complicated by a fireball down his throat. Apparently, Golodon's old nemesis returned. Dradu or Dreedon or some such name. The old bastard would occasionally mention this enemy when he was particularly drunk. The two of them had stolen some valuable artifacts from the Gibbering Twelve. Golodon blackjacked poor Dradunce and split with the magic. He later realized that he should have killed Dreedle and, cold-hearted fool that he was, sent assassins to finish the job. Drafeel disappeared, though his body was never found. It worried Golodon to no end.
 
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