Revamping the genre!....... ?

[free_pepe]

Hello everybody!
this is my first post;

I love good characters, art, and stories!

and, depending on my mood, I also love good video games to just chill with, without the pressure of loosing that comes with a good action or strategy game!

and adventure games are the combination of these two things!.... but there's 2 main serious issues I have with them, as does anybody else who's ever played them; pixel hunting, and moon logic!...........

But, without those two things, if we make everything obvious to avoid the frustration when it ain't, what is left?.........

Pretty much just a cartoon!.....

So is there anything that we can add to make it a proper game?

...How about instead of gameplay focused on randomly clicking things until something works, it be about light platforming! and exploring more open environments!

In between the story bits, just give me a big playground to bounce around in, at a good pace, in whatever direction catches my fancy, and I'm happy!

(this could be done from the traditional 3rd person perspective, but I'm more interested in the (semi) top down perspective (as seen in the recent Thank Goodness You're Here) that allows for hand drawn art)

Thoughts!? (cheers)

 

[Durq]

Have you played Lair of the Clockwork God?

 

[Baron Tahn]

Like I said in the other thread Id make more Quest for Glory style adventure game/rpg hybrids.

 

[free_pepe]

Have you played Lair of the Clockwork God?

No I haven't. I just briefly looked it up and while I'm not entirely sure how it plays, it didn't particularly look like it captured the spirit of what an Adventure Game is to me, from what I could see; the heavy focus of platforming, the fact that it's split into levels, the gamey level design, the pressure of death.......

Have you ever played Fantastic Dizzy (old SNES game)? To me it seems the open world design, and the more laid back platforming, make it closer to an adventure game/2d platformer hybrid... (though not a particularly good game...)

I dont think it's really possible to mesh adventure games and 2d platformers properly....

........but as I said, I'm thinking about a 3d space, with the platforming as less of a challenge to conquer, with the possiblity of death always present, but more of just a fun way to move around, within the story.

Have you played anything close to that??

 

[free_pepe]

Like I said in the other thread Id make more Quest for Glory style adventure game/rpg hybrids.

How does that differ from other RPGs?

 

[Pyke]

Interestingly, as you move away from the 'tried and true' adventure game format, you lose support from adventure game players. I think that adventure game players generally dont want the genre shaken up too much - they want that same experience they had when they were younger, wrapped in a different package.

The problem is that there are other genres that do those things better - that DONT have the limitations of adventure games. Open world games exist - and their mechanics arent confined to specific bespoke inventory management. Platformers exist, but they arent confined to the smaller environments needed for adventure game puzzles to not be frustrating.

As you move away from the adventure game loop, you are more seen as a lesser version of X genre, not an evolution of adventure games.

But I'm happy to be proven wrong!

 

[lightbane]

Brok the Investigator covers all of your bases, as it's an adventure game with beat-em-up elements (some of which are optional), Choices and Consequences, and multiple mutually exclusive endings. Unfortunately, it has a setting populated with cartoony funny animal type characters that might not be your cup of tea.

 

[Nifft Batuff]

Interestingly, as you move away from the 'tried and true' adventure game format, you lose support from adventure game players. I think that adventure game players generally dont want the genre shaken up too much - they want that same experience they had when they were younger, wrapped in a different package.

The problem is that there are other genres that do those things better - that DONT have the limitations of adventure games. Open world games exist - and their mechanics arent confined to specific bespoke inventory management. Platformers exist, but they arent confined to the smaller environments needed for adventure game puzzles to not be frustrating.

As you move away from the adventure game loop, you are more seen as a lesser version of X genre, not an evolution of adventure games.

But I'm happy to be proven wrong!

Well, Quest for Glory was an excellent adventure game, even if it was an adventure/rpg hybrid. If its combat is improved and better integrated it still could be an interesting direction for modern adventure and rpg genres evolutions. The game has also a big component in its interesting exploration of the wilderness, it is not cofined in small places, so that it could be also a good idea to evolve it towards open world mechanics. Many old Sierra adventure games are basically open world.

 

[AndyS]

I've always liked the idea of going back to text parsers, but ideally more advanced and flexible text parsers. The classic complaint about adventure games is you having an idea for overcoming an obstacle and trying it only for the game to tell you "you can't do that" or "I don't understand/that word isn't recognized/etc." But it would be interesting to have something that looks like a classic adventure game but plays more like an immersive sim, giving more flexibility in overcoming challenges.

 

[Baron Tahn]

Like I said in the other thread Id make more Quest for Glory style adventure game/rpg hybrids.

How does that differ from other RPGs?

It differs from adventure games in that it has stats, classes and different puzzle solutions. It differs from RPGs in that its an adventure game. You should play them. 1 and 2 are good, 3 I didnt enjoy so much, 4 is a classic and 5, well....it was an awkward time.

 

[free_pepe]

Interestingly, as you move away from the 'tried and true' adventure game format, you lose support from adventure game players. I think that adventure game players generally dont want the genre shaken up too much - they want that same experience they had when they were younger, wrapped in a different package.

The problem is that there are other genres that do those things better - that DONT have the limitations of adventure games. Open world games exist - and their mechanics arent confined to specific bespoke inventory management. Platformers exist, but they arent confined to the smaller environments needed for adventure game puzzles to not be frustrating.

As you move away from the adventure game loop, you are more seen as a lesser version of X genre, not an evolution of adventure games.

But I'm happy to be proven wrong!

I think that you're quite right in saying that many fans of the adventure game genre are old men stuck in the past.. That was my experience when I criticised certain elements of Return to Money Island.... They were more focused on deeming Ron Gilbert as some kind of God, then discussing how to make a good game...

 

[free_pepe]

Brok the Investigator covers all of your bases, as it's an adventure game with beat-em-up elements (some of which are optional), Choices and Consequences, and multiple mutually exclusive endings. Unfortunately, it has a setting populated with cartoony funny animal type characters that might not be your cup of tea.

That looks interesting, and I do quite like the funny cartoon characters... but I'm not looking for any fighting in my "Adventure Games", as the reason why I play them in the first place is for an experience that involves no pressure at all!

 

[free_pepe]

Like I said in the other thread Id make more Quest for Glory style adventure game/rpg hybrids.

How does that differ from other RPGs?

It differs from adventure games in that it has stats, classes and different puzzle solutions. It differs from RPGs in that its an adventure game. You should play them. 1 and 2 are good, 3 I didnt enjoy so much, 4 is a classic and 5, well....it was an awkward time.

I hope don't sound rude, and I know it was made by Seira, but it seems to me that Quest For Glory is just an RPG that chose the "adventure game" camera instead of the top down veiw that the rest of the RPGs were using.. and that's all that separates it from other RPGs.. and that this difference was actually just a product of technical limitations; meaning that if 3D was around they both would have used that.. and there would have been no real difference at all..



Correct me if I'm wrong...?

 

[Baron Tahn]

Like I said in the other thread Id make more Quest for Glory style adventure game/rpg hybrids.

How does that differ from other RPGs?

It differs from adventure games in that it has stats, classes and different puzzle solutions. It differs from RPGs in that its an adventure game. You should play them. 1 and 2 are good, 3 I didnt enjoy so much, 4 is a classic and 5, well....it was an awkward time.

I hope don't sound rude, and I know it was made by Seira, but it seems to me that Quest For Glory is just an RPG that chose the "adventure game" camera instead of the top down veiw that the rest of the RPGs were using.. and that's all that separates it from other RPGs.. and that this difference was actually just a product of technical limitations; meaning that if 3D was around they both would have used that.. and there would have been no real difference at all..



Correct me if I'm wrong...?

Its more adventure game. It has point n click puzzles and adventure game style presentation. Which class you play changes the puzzle solutions and while the games do have combat its kind of secondary, but its nice to have it (even though its usually jank and not the focus of the game) and is sometimes required to progress (especially as a straight fighter), but all the major puzzles are solved through adventure game style exploration, conversations with NPCs, combining items in your inventory...Its a hard game series to explain if you havent played it and pretty much is unique in the way it does things.

 

[lightbane]

Brok the Investigator covers all of your bases, as it's an adventure game with beat-em-up elements (some of which are optional), Choices and Consequences, and multiple mutually exclusive endings. Unfortunately, it has a setting populated with cartoony funny animal type characters that might not be your cup of tea.

That looks interesting, and I do quite like the funny cartoon characters... but I'm not looking for any fighting in my "Adventure Games", as the reason why I play them in the first place is for an experience that involves no pressure at all!

That's fine: Many fights are optional and can be circumvented with puzzles (if you do the section that has said fights, as you can bypass many by completing puzzles). You also have an "Easy" mode with a button that lets you auto-win any battle so you can focus on the adventure elements.

 

[free_pepe]

Like I said in the other thread Id make more Quest for Glory style adventure game/rpg hybrids.

How does that differ from other RPGs?

It differs from adventure games in that it has stats, classes and different puzzle solutions. It differs from RPGs in that its an adventure game. You should play them. 1 and 2 are good, 3 I didnt enjoy so much, 4 is a classic and 5, well....it was an awkward time.

I hope don't sound rude, and I know it was made by Seira, but it seems to me that Quest For Glory is just an RPG that chose the "adventure game" camera instead of the top down veiw that the rest of the RPGs were using.. and that's all that separates it from other RPGs.. and that this difference was actually just a product of technical limitations; meaning that if 3D was around they both would have used that.. and there would have been no real difference at all..



Correct me if I'm wrong...?

Its more adventure game. It has point n click puzzles and adventure game style presentation. Which class you play changes the puzzle solutions and while the games do have combat its kind of secondary, but its nice to have it (even though its usually jank and not the focus of the game) and is sometimes required to progress (especially as a straight fighter), but all the major puzzles are solved through adventure game style exploration, conversations with NPCs, combining items in your inventory...Its a hard game series to explain if you havent played it and pretty much is unique in the way it does things.

So what exactly is it that you'd like to see more of, incorporated with RPG elements?

The point/click controls?
The fixed camera(s) perspective?
A strong focus on inventory based progression?
A strong focus on character/story?

 

[free_pepe]

Brok the Investigator covers all of your bases, as it's an adventure game with beat-em-up elements (some of which are optional), Choices and Consequences, and multiple mutually exclusive endings. Unfortunately, it has a setting populated with cartoony funny animal type characters that might not be your cup of tea.

That looks interesting, and I do quite like the funny cartoon characters... but I'm not looking for any fighting in my "Adventure Games", as the reason why I play them in the first place is for an experience that involves no pressure at all!

That's fine: Many fights are optional and can be circumvented with puzzles (if you do the section that has said fights, as you can bypass many by completing puzzles). You also have an "Easy" mode with a button that lets you auto-win any battle so you can focus on the adventure elements.

But then it's really just another traditional adventure game isn't it....

Have you ever seen an adventure game which incorporates (playful) movement into the game? If not jumping, then maybe a little gocart to zoom around in or something....?

 

[Baron Tahn]

Like I said in the other thread Id make more Quest for Glory style adventure game/rpg hybrids.

How does that differ from other RPGs?

It differs from adventure games in that it has stats, classes and different puzzle solutions. It differs from RPGs in that its an adventure game. You should play them. 1 and 2 are good, 3 I didnt enjoy so much, 4 is a classic and 5, well....it was an awkward time.

I hope don't sound rude, and I know it was made by Seira, but it seems to me that Quest For Glory is just an RPG that chose the "adventure game" camera instead of the top down veiw that the rest of the RPGs were using.. and that's all that separates it from other RPGs.. and that this difference was actually just a product of technical limitations; meaning that if 3D was around they both would have used that.. and there would have been no real difference at all..



Correct me if I'm wrong...?

Its more adventure game. It has point n click puzzles and adventure game style presentation. Which class you play changes the puzzle solutions and while the games do have combat its kind of secondary, but its nice to have it (even though its usually jank and not the focus of the game) and is sometimes required to progress (especially as a straight fighter), but all the major puzzles are solved through adventure game style exploration, conversations with NPCs, combining items in your inventory...Its a hard game series to explain if you havent played it and pretty much is unique in the way it does things.

So what exactly is it that you'd like to see more of, incorporated with RPG elements?

The point/click controls?
The fixed camera(s) perspective?
A strong focus on inventory based progression?
A strong focus on character/story?

I guess in some ways it feels like a proper quest rather than a grind. Modern RPGs I find its just talk to everyone, gets quests, fill journal, do quests, get loot, sell loot, level up, repeat. Its rare to find a decent puzzle or barrier that doesnt just require more combat. I also dont feel like the mechanics often tie much into the game - in QFG you might have to get an apple out of a tree but a mage might grab it with a spell while a thief will climb the tree or throw a dagger.

Id like to see Quest for Glory but more leveling, stats, better combat basically, as long as they didnt compromise the adventure game aspect for it. Also I like dungeons and dungeon crawling and while QFG has a bit of that I wouldnt mind seeing more of it or done a bit better. QFG IV was the best for this, with 3 'dungeons': the intro area, the forest and the castle. The forest changed at night and was scarier with different stuff to do which was cool.

 

[free_pepe]

Like I said in the other thread Id make more Quest for Glory style adventure game/rpg hybrids.

How does that differ from other RPGs?

It differs from adventure games in that it has stats, classes and different puzzle solutions. It differs from RPGs in that its an adventure game. You should play them. 1 and 2 are good, 3 I didnt enjoy so much, 4 is a classic and 5, well....it was an awkward time.

I hope don't sound rude, and I know it was made by Seira, but it seems to me that Quest For Glory is just an RPG that chose the "adventure game" camera instead of the top down veiw that the rest of the RPGs were using.. and that's all that separates it from other RPGs.. and that this difference was actually just a product of technical limitations; meaning that if 3D was around they both would have used that.. and there would have been no real difference at all..



Correct me if I'm wrong...?

Its more adventure game. It has point n click puzzles and adventure game style presentation. Which class you play changes the puzzle solutions and while the games do have combat its kind of secondary, but its nice to have it (even though its usually jank and not the focus of the game) and is sometimes required to progress (especially as a straight fighter), but all the major puzzles are solved through adventure game style exploration, conversations with NPCs, combining items in your inventory...Its a hard game series to explain if you havent played it and pretty much is unique in the way it does things.

So what exactly is it that you'd like to see more of, incorporated with RPG elements?

The point/click controls?
The fixed camera(s) perspective?
A strong focus on inventory based progression?
A strong focus on character/story?

I guess in some ways it feels like a proper quest rather than a grind. Modern RPGs I find its just talk to everyone, gets quests, fill journal, do quests, get loot, sell loot, level up, repeat. Its rare to find a decent puzzle or barrier that doesnt just require more combat. I also dont feel like the mechanics often tie much into the game - in QFG you might have to get an apple out of a tree but a mage might grab it with a spell while a thief will climb the tree or throw a dagger.

Id like to see Quest for Glory but more leveling, stats, better combat basically, as long as they didnt compromise the adventure game aspect for it. Also I like dungeons and dungeon crawling and while QFG has a bit of that I wouldnt mind seeing more of it or done a bit better. QFG IV was the best for this, with 3 'dungeons': the intro area, the forest and the castle. The forest changed at night and was scarier with different stuff to do which was cool.

I would certainly like to see more depth in the characters (just listen to the voices of Square Enix's characters.....Cringe!) and the story of modern RPGs, to make it feel like less of a grind and more of a quest!

...But I think that if we place too much focus on mundane tasks (such as getting an apple out of the tree) it starts to feel kinda goofy.... Guybrush surely struggles with taks like that, but Aragon doesn't!

....Would your modern take on QFG be turned based, or action? And what kind of camera and controls? traditional adventure game format, or a more modern approach?

 

[Darkozric]

I think that adventure game players generally dont want the genre shaken up too much - they want that same experience they had when they were younger, wrapped in a different package.

This is just plain generalization, I can speak for myself and say that while I mostly enjoy the classic first person formula, I'm always open to new ideas.
That's why I was able to enjoy both Talos Principle games, 2 very different puzzle games in terms of game design philosophy compared to the classic recipe.

Talking about evolution, one should first define what evolution means for adventure games. Evolution is fueled by innovative ideas.
In my point of view there are technical and gameplay innovations. A technical example is that back in the early 90s, FPP adventures relied on static pre-rendered scenery and node-based movement,
Zork Nemesis, on the other hand, stores each of its nodes as a 360-degree panorama instead of a set of fixed views, letting you smoothly turn in place through a complete circle.
A simple gameplay innovation example that I can quickly pull off my head is Monkey Island's insult-based sword fighting.
It was such a simple and neat idea, which hasn't been tried in any adventure game of that time, most importantly it fits the pirate theme and the adventure framework without alienating the genre.

As much I like the Quest for Glory format, evolution is not about throwing a bunch of stats and classes and try to make adventures a lil bit more arrr pee gees, or adding some beat 'em up sections and calling it a day.
This is just mixing predefined genres, which is fine to be a chemist, and as Nifft Batuff mentioned you could potentially have some interesting results, especially in the open world department.
But you bastardize the genre, it still remains a cheap way to consider yourself an innovator.
IMO innovation should be made within the established framework of the genre, and this is the challenge and the beauty of it.
It also requires esoteric thinking and procedures that most of the modern devs are incapable of doing.
For games like Tex Murphy, Riven, etc to exist, talented people pushed their brains to the limit day-night,
they never went "let us spare the tiresome brainstorming on how to push the genre forward and just make a half-assed strategy/adventure or a beat 'em up/adventure and get done with it".

As you move away from the adventure game loop, you are more seen as a lesser version of X genre, not an evolution of adventure games.

Well this is logical, and how can one blame someone for having this view, when what you're suggesting is exactly what I described above.
Additionally, keep in mind that Owlcats also have the delusion that moving away from the role play loop they "evolve" RPGs, but in reality they only manage to irritate people with their pointless management autism.

The problem is that there are other genres that do those things better - that DONT have the limitations of adventure games. Open world games exist - and their mechanics arent confined to specific bespoke inventory management. Platformers exist, but they arent confined to the smaller environments needed for adventure game puzzles to not be frustrating.

Adventures that aren't confined by inventory management and small environments already exist. I don't get what exactly it is that limits you.
For example, you could make a 3rd person Stasis or any other open-world/semi open-world adventure ala URU, but with your own personal spin, without inventory management, meaningful platforming/climbing,
and a few fresh problem solving ideas. Depending on the setting, you could also throw a few stealth sections, but not overdoing it, you need to add some tension not making a Thief successor.
It will not be a point n click, but it will still be an adventure game at heart, without the implied limitations.

Given that you're working on your next game, I have to ask, are you going to innovate or roleplay a chemist?

 

[Baron Tahn]

Its not mundane if you are starving or its an Apple of Erana (dead QFG mage that made safe oases in dangerous places and ties into the Paladin storyline). But QFG did have some cheesy humor and that was great.

Turn based. Point n click. Virtually the same controls but id maybe do a more tactical grid based combat thing that allowed for multiple enemies and some summons of your own. Traditional adventure game format whatever that means, Im not sure what you mean by 'modern approach'. Probably nice looking 2d art and backgrounds. Good narrator like IV.

Edit: That was a reply to free_pepe above.

 

[free_pepe]

Its not mundane if you are starving or its an Apple of Erana (dead QFG mage that made safe oases in dangerous places and ties into the Paladin storyline). But QFG did have some cheesy humor and that was great.

Turn based. Point n click. Virtually the same controls but id maybe do a more tactical grid based combat thing that allowed for multiple enemies and some summons of your own. Traditional adventure game format whatever that means, Im not sure what you mean by 'modern approach'. Probably nice looking 2d art and backgrounds. Good narrator like IV.

Edit: That was a reply to free_pepe above.

Ok, I see what you mean now. Before I wasn't sure if you where describing something like The Witcher 3 (which dose have some depth to the characters/story) with a stong focus on the quite/combatless moments in the towns (which I am certainly all for!), or Monkey Island with turn based combat..... it turns out your talking the latter.

......but tbh I'm not sure if I like the concept..

There's something weird about sticking RPG grinding into the story book asthetic..... ("Bro, whoever binded this book stuck page 32 in here like 20 times WTF!?")

...And (while I know that it was quite common in the Sierra games) I don't want any fail states, and the pressure that comes with it, in my Adventure Games!

 

[Baron Tahn]

Yep the latter more than the former is what I was going for.

 

[free_pepe]

I think that adventure game players generally dont want the genre shaken up too much - they want that same experience they had when they were younger, wrapped in a different package.

This is just plain generalization, I can speak for myself and say that while I mostly enjoy the classic first person formula, I'm always open to new ideas.
That's why I was able to enjoy both Talos Principle games, 2 very different puzzle games in terms of game design philosophy compared to the classic recipe.

Talking about evolution, one should first define what evolution means for adventure games. Evolution is fueled by innovative ideas.
In my point of view there are technical and gameplay innovations. A technical example is that back in the early 90s, FPP adventures relied on static pre-rendered scenery and node-based movement,
Zork Nemesis, on the other hand, stores each of its nodes as a 360-degree panorama instead of a set of fixed views, letting you smoothly turn in place through a complete circle.
A simple gameplay innovation example that I can quickly pull off my head is Monkey Island's insult-based sword fighting.
It was such a simple and neat idea, which hasn't been tried in any adventure game of that time, most importantly it fits the pirate theme and the adventure framework without alienating the genre.

As much I like the Quest for Glory format, evolution is not about throwing a bunch of stats and classes and try to make adventures a lil bit more arrr pee gees, or adding some beat 'em up sections and calling it a day.
This is just mixing predefined genres, which is fine to be a chemist, and as Nifft Batuff mentioned you could potentially have some interesting results, especially in the open world department.
But you bastardize the genre, it still remains a cheap way to consider yourself an innovator.
IMO innovation should be made within the established framework of the genre, and this is the challenge and the beauty of it.
It also requires esoteric thinking and procedures that most of the modern devs are incapable of doing.
For games like Tex Murphy, Riven, etc to exist, talented people pushed their brains to the limit day-night,
they never went "let us spare the tiresome brainstorming on how to push the genre forward and just make a half-assed strategy/adventure or a beat 'em up/adventure and get done with it".

As you move away from the adventure game loop, you are more seen as a lesser version of X genre, not an evolution of adventure games.

Well this is logical, and how can one blame someone for having this view, when what you're suggesting is exactly what I described above.
Additionally, keep in mind that Owlcats also have the delusion that moving away from the role play loop they "evolve" RPGs, but in reality they only manage to irritate people with their pointless management autism.

The problem is that there are other genres that do those things better - that DONT have the limitations of adventure games. Open world games exist - and their mechanics arent confined to specific bespoke inventory management. Platformers exist, but they arent confined to the smaller environments needed for adventure game puzzles to not be frustrating.

Adventures that aren't confined by inventory management and small environments already exist. I don't get what exactly it is that limits you.
For example, you could make a 3rd person Stasis or any other open-world/semi open-world adventure ala URU, but with your own personal spin, without inventory management, meaningful platforming/climbing,
and a few fresh problem solving ideas. Depending on the setting, you could also throw a few stealth sections, but not overdoing it, you need to add some tension not making a Thief successor.
It will not be a point n click, but it will still be an adventure game at heart, without the implied limitations.

Given that you're working on your next game, I have to ask, are you going to innovate or roleplay a chemist?

Yo man, can you address my idea (the topic of the thread)..... Not strategy, not beat em up, but light, playful moving/platforming in a 3d setting?.......

Let's say you're a little monkey on an island, and in between talking to those around the village and doing the traditional adventure game stuff, you're jumping over fallen trees, climing up the mountains, and swinning on vines, maybe you eventually build a little gocart to zoom around in!

Would you see that (done properly) as an evolution?

 

[free_pepe]

Yep the latter more than the former is what I was going for.

....yeah I can't really say I'm a fan, I'd rather just a medieval fantasy themed Adventure Game without that other stuff.

But I do strongly support a strong focus on the story/characters in normal RPG games!

What do you think of my idea about including the movement based mechanics into the genre?