Revisiting VtM: Bloodlines

[Storyfag]

RaggleFraggle, does Secret World scratch your urbfant itch?

 

[ColaWerewolf]

It's cool in the context of the game. Like if this was the only VtM game ever made I think it would be a neat plot twist. I think it makes the world seem smaller.

In more than 30 years there has been only 2 VtM games, not counting all the low-effort visual novels that White Wolf greedily churns out. And of these Bloodlines is the most popular. If Troika have decided to respect the WoD lore, Bloodlines wouldn't have been so good and you wouldn't have played another vampire game for the next 2 decades.

"Everything around you burns to the ground" is a bit of an exaggeration

Not from the perspective of the player. At the end of the game everyone is trying to get you and the Sabbat literally puts fire to the downtown, following a long trail of bullshit and backstabs. This is why the cab scene is so impactful: he picks you up and drives you without demanding anything from you.

LaCroix was just a big nothingburger in the grand scheme of things.

The other day I re-watched the Van Helsing movie with Hugh Jackman and Kate Beckinsale. Despite being a movie that is not trying too hard to be serious or dark, is filled with great scenes such as this:



WoD is the oppossite: Overblown lore wank that tries too hard to be serious and dark while not being great or even good. Bloodlines is closer to this early 2000s campy style than to WoD.

Thanks for this, it reminded me of an important point. Cabbie being Caine is a WoD "lore wank". Despite what you say, Bloodlines is without a doubt the vtm game that leans the most into WoD and WoD lore.
Bloodlines has the most vampire clans out of all other WoD games. Including Nagaraja and gargoyles.
Bloodlines has the most WoD supernaturals out of all the games. Vampires, wraiths, werewolves, cathayans, homunculi, weresharks, and even mummies were mentioned.
Bloodlines has the most WoD lore dumps out of all the games. Tung serves as a clanbook encyclopedia, Skelter tells you the book of Nod origin story, art museum even explains Lilith's involvement with the vampire mythos.

Every other WoD game focuses primarily on its own plot with the WoD setting being the secondary backdrop. Bloodlines is the only game that has the WoD setting be the primary attraction and its sarcophagus plot is just a deus ex machina to showcase the WoD themepark.

 

[Storyfag]

Bloodlines has the most vampire clans out of all other WoD games. Including Nagaraja and gargoyles.

Does it? Redemption lacks Ravnos only, I think. It even manages both Cappadocians and Giovanni. Well, Salubri ought to still be around in the Dark Ages and arent in-game either. Bloodlines has no Setites, Ravnos, Assamites, Lasombra, Cappadocians, Salubri (the latter two quite reasonably)...

Bloodlines has the most WoD supernaturals out of all the games. Vampires, wraiths, werewolves, cathayans, homunculi, weresharks,

Cathayans are also vampires. Just not Cainite vampires. There is no homunculus in Bloodlines. Redemption also has wraiths and werewolves, and a huge golem to balance out the wereshark.

even mummies were mentioned.

Not in the context of a moving one, I think.

Bloodlines has the most WoD lore dumps out of all the games. Tung serves as a clanbook encyclopedia, Skelter tells you the book of Nod origin story, art museum even explains Lilith's involvement with the vampire mythos.

Again, comparable to Redemption and the stuff you can find in the Nosferatu tunnels beneath Prague. Also, Tung gives you loredumps on 7 clans only, then you get one on Tzimisce from Jack and one on Giovanni from Gary. 4 other Clans are not only absent from the game, but not even mentioned.

 

[ColaWerewolf]

Bloodlines has the most vampire clans out of all other WoD games. Including Nagaraja and gargoyles.

Does it? Redemption lacks Ravnos only, I think. It even manages both Cappadocians and Giovanni. Well, Salubri ought to still be around in the Dark Ages and arent in-game either. Bloodlines has no Setites, Ravnos, Assamites, Lasombra...

Bloodlines has the most WoD supernaturals out of all the games. Vampires, wraiths, werewolves, cathayans, homunculi, weresharks,

Cathayans are also vampires. Just not Cainite vampires. There is no homunculus in Bloodlines. Redemption also has wraiths and werewolves, and a huge golem to balance out the wereshark.

even mummies were mentioned.

Not in the context of a moving one, I think.

Bloodlines has the most WoD lore dumps out of all the games. Tung serves as a clanbook encyclopedia, Skelter tells you the book of Nod origin story, art museum even explains Lilith's involvement with the vampire mythos.

Again, comparable to Redemption and the stuff you can find in the Nosferatu tunnels beneath Prague. Also, Tung gives you loredumps on 7 clans only, then you get one on Tzimisce from Jack and one on Giovanni from Gary. 4 other Clans are not only absent from the game, but not even mentioned.

You're right, Redemption also utilises a lot of WoD concepts they're just explained less effectively and tend to take a backseat compared to the love story between Cristof and Anezka. Bear in mind I actually prefer Bloodlines over Redemption for that reason alone. I'd rather go through an engaging themepark than watch a sappy romance.

I should also preface by saying that Bloodlines is my favorite WoD game.
Bloodlines leaning so much into the WoD setting and being the most popular game to date should at least create some pause in the people who think WoD is the issue. WoD is not the issue, but leaning too much into it can start to seem fanservice-y and actually damaging to the setting's integrity. It's all about balance: utilizing the setting but not to the point where it becomes cheap.

When I first completed Bloodlines I didn't play as a Malkavian so I had no idea that the cabbie was supposed to be Caine, but that didn't detract at all from the cab drive at the end of the game. The discussion was no less impactful to me when the cabbie just seemed like a mysterious vampire, perhaps the one who would send you those cryptic emails? It made me start to speculate and use my brain. I sincerely felt nothing was added by the discovery that he is Caine, it took away the mystery of it and frankly imagining Caine following you around in a cab and writing cheesy chess emails just isn't cool to me.

 

[RaggleFraggle]

Those are Easter egg references that would only make sense to people who already read the tabletop books extensively. To people who only played Bloodlines, it just comes across as weird random stuff.

The “exposition” is very short, especially compared to modern codices. It’s no substitute for the tabletop books or even a wiki.

 

[ColaWerewolf]

Those are Easter egg references that would only make sense to people who already read the tabletop books extensively. To people who only played Bloodlines, it just comes across as weird random stuff.

The “exposition” is very short, especially compared to modern codices. It’s no substitute for the tabletop books or even a wiki.

I disagree, I think Bloodlines is by far the best intro to WoD out of any game by a stupendous margin because it showcases many concepts and yet explains all of them enough for anyone who's not a short-attention span zoomer to understand. Yes it doesn't go into any nuanced material but that's why it's the perfect intro.

 

[RaggleFraggle]

S.torch do you have anything to add? I’m too exhausted to bother

 

[Harthwain]

Exactly. Hard to use urban fantasy as a category when there’s not enough to put in it.

I meant to say that even when it comes to vampires and werewolves there aren't that many games to pick from, so I am not at all surprised that Vampyr did relatively well.

As for not using urban fantasy as a category - it is all about supply and demand. If people were using urban fantasy as a category to make it popular, then we would see it used. But they seem not have the need to use it, so they don't. Like I said, Harry Potter was described as fantasy and lo and behold; Hogwarts Legacy has fantasy as second most applied tag on Steam. Whereas urban fantasy films (as a category) has 2 subcategories and 5 pages on wikipedia, which is abysmal numbers-wise.

It’s not like “vampire” or “werewolf” are useful either. That tells you absolutely nothing about gameplay or story or anything. The tags are so broad as to be useless. It’s like using “fish” or “chair”.

"Vampire" or "werewolf" are useful, because they help people pintpoint exactly what interests them (vampires or werewolves). Trying to compare these categories to something like fish or chair is logical fallacy on your part. Another proof of usefulness is that there actually are such categories so you can search games for them, unlike urban fantasy one.

 

[RaggleFraggle]

"Vampire" or "werewolf" are useful, because they help people pintpoint exactly what interests them (vampires or werewolves). Trying to compare these categories to something like fish or chair is logical fallacy on your part. Another proof of usefulness is that there actually are such categories so you can search games for them, unlike urban fantasy one.

If you’re a mindless consumer, then sure. I checked the categories and it’s 90% drek. It’s applied to every game that so much as mentions the words even once. Maybe 1% even let you play a vampire, 0.1% a werewolf, and 90% of those are badly reviewed drek.

If I’m trying to find games like Bloodlines, then those tags are worse than useless. They actively waste my time.

 

[Harthwain]

If you’re a mindless consumer, then sure.

I thought we were talking about the mainstream here?

If I’m trying to find games like Bloodlines, then those tags are worse than useless. They actively waste my time.

I put in "vampires" and Bloodlines was 64-th position out of 1,552. It is not as bad as you try to make it seem.

 

[RaggleFraggle]

I put in "vampires" and Bloodlines was 64-th position out of 1,552. It is not as bad as you try to make it seem.

How many of those games are rpgs, focus primarily on vampires, let you play a vampire (or even a half-vampire if we want to be charitable), take place on Earth (at any time if want to be charitable), and are worth playing?

I’ll save you the trouble: Bloodlines and nothing else.

As I said, if you’re looking for anything like Bloodlines, then you’re fucked. Over a thousand games with that tag, and most are either irrelevant or outright garbage. It’s exactly as bad as I’m making it out. If it wasn’t, then urban fantasy would be an actual tag and we wouldn’t be complaining that there hasn’t been a single decent urban fantasy game released since Bloodlines 20 years ago.

The game industry is fucking pathetic. They’re the single best argument for instituting communism.

 

[Harthwain]

As I said, if you’re looking for anything like Bloodlines, then you’re fucked. Over a thousand games with that tag, and most are either irrelevant or outright garbage. It’s exactly as bad as I’m making it out.

"Vampire" + "RPG" tag = Bloodlines is 8th. You can thin it out even more by using "Vampire" + "RPG" + "Story Rich".

Your actual problem is that nobody is looking for games that "take place on Earth" so there is no way to narrow down that particular parameter. You're also screwed simply because there aren't that many RPGs, much less vampire RPGs (Bloodlines, Redemption, Swansong and Bloodlines 2 being the most prominent ones fititng these criteria).

If it wasn’t, then urban fantasy would be an actual tag and we wouldn’t be complaining that there hasn’t been a single decent urban fantasy game released since Bloodlines 20 years ago.

I sincerly doubt we would have that tag, even if we had 30 decent vampires RPG when that's needed are "Vampire" and "RPG" tags.

 

[RaggleFraggle]

You're also screwed simply because there aren't that many RPGs, much less vampire RPGs

No shit, Sherlock.

There’s not even a decent medieval fantasy rpg about vampires, or werewolves, or whatever. You’d think there’d be at least one, but nope! At best, we get a few sidequests in an otherwise generic fantasy rpg like Skyrim.

Swansong and Bloodlines 2 being the most prominent ones fititng these criteria).

Everyone knows those suck ass.

I sincerly doubt we would have that tag, even if we had 30 decent vampires RPG when that's needed are "Vampire" and "RPG" tags

Don’t get me started on the dearth of urban fantasy featuring anything that isn’t a vampire. Where are all the X-Files inspired rpgs where you play a paranormal investigator investigating mothmen, chupacabras, Rosicrucians and templars? What about traditional fantasy races living secretly in modern society? The tag would useful if the market wasn’t comprised of dunderheads.

 

[Harthwain]

Everyone knows those suck ass.

I wasn't talking about their quality as games. I meant they are prominent insofar as they are recognizeable due to them being part of the Vampire: The Masquerade brand.

 

[SilentSeeker]

The other day I re-watched the Van Helsing movie with Hugh Jackman and Kate Beckinsale. Despite being a movie that is not trying too hard to be serious or dark, is filled with great scenes such as this:



WoD is the oppossite: Overblown lore wank that tries too hard to be serious and dark while not being great or even good. Bloodlines is closer to this early 2000s campy style than to WoD.

It's funny you bring this up, as Abraham Van Helsing is the one aspect of Dracula that every adaptation gets wrong. They usually portray him as some badass monster hunter, often the latest in a long line, that has the knowledge and skills needed to bring down the unnatural beasts- in the book, he's a borderline-elderly medical doctor who's only brought in to help because he's a friend and colleague of one of Mina's sweethearts, and his "power" consists of open-mindedness, and willingness to try things from folklore to help when medical science has failed.

He'd make a GREAT allied foil for Patrick Galloway.

I think, however, that the more telling comparison is with the titular character of Varney the Vampyre. Varney is, unlike Dracula, not really a good book, but not only is Varney himself portrayed sympathetically (though villainously), but much about vampirism, and his own history, is left a mystery, even to him. The idea of a newly-created vampire trying to suss out what is and isn't true regarding vampires with nothing but myths, legends, and reputations to go from is an interesting idea- but it'd be REALLY hard to make a game out of, since player choice is all too likely to torpedo the kind of experimentation that'd make it worthwhile.

Which is really just a long-winded way of saying that lore dumps definitely have a place, if you're trying to make a game that's marketable beyond a small niche audience.

 

[RaggleFraggle]

Everyone knows those suck ass.

I wasn't talking about their quality as games. I meant they are prominent insofar as they are recognizeable due to them being part of the Vampire: The Masquerade brand.

Paradox has irrevocably soiled the brand name. It’s poison now. They’re part of the problem. After BL2 bombs, nobody is gonna invest in that IP. Even if by some miracle they did, the bad blood means nobody would play even a good game. Just look at Dawn of War 3 and Andor.

Fans need to put aside their nostalgia and make new games with new IPs. Urban fantasy is extremely easy to write for because you can draw from the whole of human history and folklore. Just write a good game!

The idea of a newly-created vampire trying to suss out what is and isn't true regarding vampires with nothing but myths, legends, and reputations to go from is an interesting idea- but it'd be REALLY hard to make a game out of, since player choice is all too likely to torpedo the kind of experimentation that'd make it worthwhile.

You never know unless you try. I think that sounds absolutely fascinating. Usually vampire fiction just exposits the rules at you in the most banal manner possible. It’s never tactile.

Even Bloodlines falls into that trap. Jack exposits the rules at you. He does it comedically, but he still exposits. Most of what he says never comes up later, so it’s not even necessary to know. But the sequence where a scientist exposes the PC to various stimuli to see what works? That is actually interesting.

Which is really just a long-winded way of saying that lore dumps definitely have a place, if you're trying to make a game that's marketable beyond a small niche audience.

The meat and bread of stories are plot and characters. Lore is supposed to be a light sprinkling of salt and pepper, if at all. Where WoD has consistently fucked up is giving you giant piles of salt like a first time fantasy writer with no editor.

 

[S.torch]

Despite what you say, Bloodlines is without a doubt the vtm game that leans the most into WoD and WoD lore.

That's like saying the mere mention of Elves, Dwarfs or Orcs in a fantasy game is lore wank. They're terms and concepts most players and fantasy fans are familiarized by and need very little to get introduced, which is what Bloodlines did.

Also, you're viewing this from a pure info-dump perspective. When lore wank can be the mindless adhesion to canonical plotlines, cutting everything that doesn't strictly follow it as if it was a compendium of government legislature. In IPs like WoD that have gone under numerous re-writings, retcons and different editions this is just pointless and goes again telling interesting stories.

 

[ColaWerewolf]

That's like saying the mere mention of Elves, Dwarfs or Orcs in a fantasy game is lore wank. They're terms and concepts most players and fantasy fans are familiarized by and need very little to get introduced, which is what Bloodlines did.

If you're arguing that terms such as Nagaraja, Caine, the Caine mythos, Brujah, Ventrue, Sabbat, Camarilla, Tremere, are terms and concepts that most players and fantasy fans are familiarized with and on the same level as "elves" and "orcs" then I honestly refuse to engage with you. They needed to be explained and they were explained in-game. The only inclusion I consider to step over the line of worldbuilding and dangerously into fanservice is Caine's physical presence, thankfully it wasn't abused and only one clan could confirm his inclusion.

Also you and RaggleFraggle are standing on directly opposing viewpoints despite you having been summoned by him to argue his case. He's arguing that this stuff is eastereggs that only VtM lorebuffs would understand, while you're saying that this is stuff most players and fantasy fans understand intuitively and without explanation. So please sort this out between eachother first.

 

[RaggleFraggle]

which is what Bloodlines did.

Bloodlines also kept the IP’s jargon to a minimum, thank god. For example, Therese and the PC refer to the Ocean House haunting as a troublesome spirit and ghost, but only Beckett says “wraith” if prompted. You can tell the IP was invented by pretentious mall goths in the early 90s because it absolutely refuses to use naturalistic language.

In IPs like WoD that have gone under numerous re-writings, retcons and different editions this is just pointless and goes again telling interesting stories.

Totally. They rebooted the IP in 2004 to fix that, making the settings broader, flexible and mysterious. That reboot was the best-selling ttrpg after D&D from 2004 to 2009, almost continuously in every quarter, on the ICv2. The new structure lent itself extremely well to video game adaptations, I thought.

Paradox cancelled it and replaced it with V5, which struggles to enter the top 5 on the ICv2.

 

[Storyfag]

If you're arguing that terms such as Nagaraja

Is Pisha even ever identified as such? We recognise her as such, due to her vampiric weakness and necromantic aptitude, but to an outsider she remains this "vampire worse off than normal".

Caine

Biblical.

the Caine mythos

Biblical again, with a bit of apocrypha and a bloody touch added. Still well within the general body of culture.

Camarilla

Actual word meaning, in the broadest terms, the same thing as WoDs Camarilla does - a conspiracy/secret clique.

 

[Vulpes]

Totally. They rebooted the IP in 2004 to fix that, making the settings broader, flexible and mysterious. That reboot was the best-selling ttrpg after D&D from 2004 to 2009, almost continuously in every quarter, on the ICv2. The new structure lent itself extremely well to video game adaptations, I thought.

Paradox cancelled it and replaced it with V5, which struggles to enter the top 5 on the ICv2.

Vampire the Requiem is shit and a game based on it would be even more shit. A significant part of the appeal of a setting is the "fluff" while the main "appeal" of Vampire the Requiem is that its a blank slate. In fact, it's so fucking barebones and the vampires in it are so fucking underwhelming that you might as well not even bother making an adaptation and instead work your own world, characters, game system, etc. from scratch.

 

[ColaWerewolf]

Is Pisha even ever identified as such? We recognise her as such, due to her vampiric weakness and necromantic aptitude, but to an outsider she remains this "vampire worse off than normal".

Right you are, my mistake.

I respect you too much to try and argue semantics so instead I'll just express my idea openly: VtM: Bloodlines is steeped in WoD lore/terms/details, and indeed it is a themepark of WoD. I don't think this is a bad thing and it's a big reason why it became so popular. You never knew what to expect. You had a vague relatability with other vampires, particularly the anarchs who were much more fleshed out than the Camarilla, but outside of that you were literally dropped into the World of Darkness.

You turned a corner and met a ghoul. You walked down some stairs and met a serial killer. You went to a hotel and saw a ghost. You met other vampires who explained to you how their society worked. You had no idea who the Sabbat were until some vampire (Jack) told you they were mean angry assholes. And that's all you knew for a while. Then another vampire (Bertram) explained it in more detail, including parts of their ideology. You met other vampires who talked about their religious beliefs (Skelter). You saw one who was on the verge of succumbing to the Beast (Slasher). You saw one who was different on a physiological level from other vampires (Pisha). You saw oriental variants (Ming Xiao). You saw werewolves and other were-things. You saw hunters and corporations trying to hunt you. You saw strange and unique abilities. Gargoyles created by Tremere. Blood magic. Fleshcrafting. Nosferatu lairs. You got initiated in the commandments of vampiric society (Masquerade). You saw how generation affected how other vampires saw you (thin-bloods).

This is all WoD. Every time you rounded a corner you didn't know what to expect because another facet of WoD awaited you. And you did need it explained to you. The first thing that happens in the game is Jack pulling you aside and giving you a primer on the basics because you needed them. Then you're left to discover some things by yourself, until Bertram pops in to explain some more things. You're left to see the different perspectives of Nines and Strauss. You get to see how Nines and Abrams have very different definitions of what it means to be a baron. It's little things like that which compound as you play the game.

By comparison, Redemption barely explains anything to the player. Which is fine because most Redemption players played Bloodlines or the ttrpg first and so know the setting already. But perhaps that's also a reason why Redemption never really gained traction, I have an inkling it got more popular with age (after people played Bloodlines) than when it originally released.

 

[Harthwain]

in the book, he's a borderline-elderly medical doctor who's only brought in to help because he's a friend and colleague of one of Mina's sweethearts

He is brought in because he is a friend and colleague of Dr Steward, who is a friend of Arthur Holmwood, who is Lucy's fiance. Mina doesn't factor into this at that point.

Paradox has irrevocably soiled the brand name. It’s poison now. They’re part of the problem. After BL2 bombs, nobody is gonna invest in that IP. Even if by some miracle they did, the bad blood means nobody would play even a good game. Just look at Dawn of War 3 and Andor.

I am less pessimistic. I think that "BL2 bombing" will only destroy Bloodlines, not Vampire: The Masquerade, just like bad Warhammer 40k/Dark Fantasy games don't really bother people who are into Warhammer.

That said, we will likely see more independent takes, because then you retain the right to the potential IP and aren't constrained by the IP holder telling you what you can or can't do within the game.

By comparison, Redemption barely explains anything to the player. Which is fine because most Redemption players played Bloodlines or the ttrpg first and so know the setting already. But perhaps that's also a reason why Redemption never really gained traction, I have an inkling it got more popular with age (after people played Bloodlines) than when it originally released.

That is not true. Redemption does a lot of introduction into the setting for the player, but it doesn't overload you with information, trying to pace it all out. That said, it may also be too indirect at times and you don't exactly have the means to ask for more information in case you do need it.

 

[ColaWerewolf]

That is not true. Redemption does a lot of introduction into the setting for the player, but it doesn't overload you with information, trying to pace it all out. That said, it may also be too indirect at times and you don't exactly have the means to ask for more information in case you do need it.

To be honest I don't remember that, but my last playthrough of Redemption was years ago. I remember Ekaterina moaning about Carthage and trying to identify the Brujah as warrior poets, then most of the dialogue being about finding Anezka. I don't remember the clans being discussed, or any factions. I remember the characters and their clans being mentioned but nothing explaining what they are or do. I remember the prince being called a Ventrue but no explanation as to what a Ventrue is, for example.

 

[NecroLord]

That is not true. Redemption does a lot of introduction into the setting for the player, but it doesn't overload you with information, trying to pace it all out. That said, it may also be too indirect at times and you don't exactly have the means to ask for more information in case you do need it.

To be honest I don't remember that, but my last playthrough of Redemption was years ago. I remember Ekaterina moaning about Carthage and trying to identify the Brujah as warrior poets, then most of the dialogue being about finding Anezka. I don't remember the clans being discussed, or any factions. I remember the characters and their clans being mentioned but nothing explaining what they are or do. I remember the prince being called a Ventrue but no explanation as to what a Ventrue is, for example.

You were kinda expected to be at least slightly familiar with the VTM lore and its clans.
Redemption is part of the Vampire: Dark Ages setting.