Revisiting VtM: Bloodlines

[ColaWerewolf]

You were kinda expected to be at least slightly familiar with the VTM lore and its clans.
Redemption is part of the Vampire: Dark Ages setting.

That's why I wouldn't call it an introduction to the setting, rather it's just a really solid entry that uses its source material effectively.

 

[RaggleFraggle]

Vampire the Requiem is shit and a game based on it would be even more shit. A significant part of the appeal of a setting is the "fluff" while the main "appeal" of Vampire the Requiem is that its a blank slate. In fact, it's so fucking barebones and the vampires in it are so fucking underwhelming that you might as well not even bother making an adaptation and instead work your own world, characters, game system, etc. from scratch.

Have you actually read the books or are you basing everything you believe on third hand rantings by butthurt haters? Requiem had books written for almost two decades before Paradox pulled the plug. It has accumulated a metric ton of lore. Clan books, covenant books, bloodline books, historical eras, alternate histories, mythologies, GM advice books, monster books, city books, etc. To say that it's a blank slate is categorically false. It has a ton of lore, you're just not forced to keep track of all of it. It's quite detailed, but it is modular. In some ways this is a drawback, because they rarely reference the same material across multiple books, but it is still lore. In some ways it's even more bloated than VtM ever got, but this is isn't as big a problem due to the modularity. For example, there are at least 3-4 different bloodlines whose shtick is being territorial and having superpowers related to controlling their territory, which probably would've been better served by condensing them into one. There's even translation guides allowing you to convert your favorite global arab ninja clan if it didn't already have an equivalent.

Also, Requiem was actually designed to be a fucking game. Like D&D and Pathfinder. Not bad microfiction pretending to be a game, but an actual game for people who play tabletop games and aren't interested in passively reading lore dumps. No shit its first edition was consistently the best selling tabletop game after D&D and Pathfinder. It was a good game. Maybe not perfect, and in retrospect I don't agree with all the creative decisions, but it was fun. Haters gonna hate.

Anyway, Troika could've easily created a very similar game to Bloodlines using that material, and without necessarily using the translation guides. The more gonzo fights in the later areas pose slightly more challenge, but you can probably use Centimani and Pandorans for the sewer monsters if you want to maintain the frankenstein aesthetic. What made Bloodlines good was Troika. Lore is cheap. We know that because none of the Paradox games have been good despite being written by lore junkies.

you might as well not even bother making an adaptation and instead work your own world, characters, game system, etc. from scratch.

I could say the same about VtM. There's nothing that justifies using it over making your own IP beyond being an autist. Anyone with a little creativity could make their own extensive lore drawing upon public domain sources, such as The Everlasting.

I am less pessimistic. I think that "BL2 bombing" will only destroy Bloodlines, not Vampire: The Masquerade, just like bad Warhammer 40k/Dark Fantasy games don't really bother people who are into Warhammer.

GW makes money from its miniatures sales. Other markets are a drop in their bucket. If a licensed video game fails, then it doesn't affect miniatures sales.

Paradox is a video game company. They bought the IP to mine it for video games; the ttrpg part is a legacy product on life support and a drop in their bucket. They sunk all their investments into video games, which are not paying off. If BL2 bombs, then I doubt Paradox will renew the licenses for new games and tabletop books. Maybe they'll sell the IP off, but corpos in general seem too tight-fisted to do that. Even if they do try selling, I can't think of many who would be interested in buying a soiled brand. Maybe Onyx Path would want it back for the sentimental value, but would they even be able to pay the asking price?

Over the years there have been multiple instances of tabletop IPs being sold and killed. I don't think the prognosis looks good.

That said, we will likely see more independent takes, because then you retain the right to the potential IP and aren't constrained by the IP holder telling you what you can or can't do within the game.

About fucking time. Unfortunately, I'm not impressed with the results I've seen thus far. I checked out The Hungry Town and it was clearly trying to be VtM with the serial numbers filed off. It doesn't try to do anything interesting with its world like The Everlasting or The Requiem did. The writing isn't terrible, but it doesn't draw me in.

Compare the trailer for A Vampyre Story 2: A Bat's Tale. It's an adventure game that parodies vampire tropes similar to What We Do In The Shadows. I enjoyed playing the first game despite the time-consuming puzzles because the dialogue was just so much fun to listen to.

I don't know what happened, but it feels like after about 2010 most game writers just stopped trying.

 

[Harthwain]

I don't remember the clans being discussed, or any factions.

When you go to "infiltrate" the clan Cappadocian your companion and teacher, Wilhem, talks about them. The monastery is also where he talks about the origins of the Curse of Caine and the Cainate Heresy.

I remember the prince being called a Ventrue but no explanation as to what a Ventrue is, for example.

It is mentioned right after your transformation into a vampire that they are mortal enemies of the Brujah clan and skilled politicians. There is also another Venture NPC who talks about himself and his clan later on. Like I said, there are bits of information spread throught the game as they are needed.

GW makes money from its miniatures sales. Other markets are a drop in their bucket. If a licensed video game fails, then it doesn't affect miniatures sales.

Paradox is a video game company. They bought the IP to mine it for video games; the ttrpg part is a legacy product on life support and a drop in their bucket. They sunk all their investments into video games, which are not paying off. If BL2 bombs, then I doubt Paradox will renew the licenses for new games and tabletop books. Maybe they'll sell the IP off, but corpos in general seem too tight-fisted to do that. Even if they do try selling, I can't think of many who would be interested in buying a soiled brand. Maybe Onyx Path would want it back for the sentimental value, but would they even be able to pay the asking price?

You sure they make money just from minatures? Because there are video games, comics, books, etc. At this point Warhammer is bigger than figurines. And I don't really see the reason for Paradox not to give the license to anyone who is willing to make a game in exchange for part of the profit. As long as they won't have to shovel their money into such projects it's not like they would be losing anything from this kind of deal.

I don't know what happened, but it feels like after about 2010 most game writers just stopped trying.

Something did happen to writers at large. Not just game writers, but also movie writers. My guess is the industry thought they can replace good quality writers with some cheap labour who lack talent and experience and the results are what we can see.

 

[ColaWerewolf]

RaggleFraggle There's a new urban horror TTRPG called Curseborne that seems interesting, I'd be interested in your review of it.

 

[spectre]

You sure they make money just from minatures? Because there are video games, comics, books, etc. At this point Warhammer is bigger than figurines. And I don't really see the reason for Paradox not to give the license to anyone who is willing to make a game in exchange for part of the profit. As long as they won't have to shovel their money into such projects it's not like they would be losing anything from this kind of deal.

It's a bit difficult to dig out an actual number from their financial statements, at least from the ones I've seen. You can have a jab at it here:
https://investor.games-workshop.com/annual-reports-and-half-year-results

The video games, books and Warhammer+ videos are usually piled somewhere under "Trade," i.e. stuff that isn't sold by them directly, by their own outlets.
It is 50% of their income, but this category is a catch all for everything, including selling miniatures to unaffiliated retailers, which I imagine is the lion's share of that number, but how much exactly?

Perhaps a more indicative item are the core revenue vs. licensing revenue fields. In 2023, they got 445M English shekels vs. 25M revenue from licensing which isn't a whole lot as a %,
I'd doubt if the suits consider these things as something more than just "advertising that happens to make us some money," so basically free.
Good games make the plastic (and resin) flow, bad games are quickly forgotten, so it's not like they're taking big risks here.

 

[RaggleFraggle]

RaggleFraggle There's a new urban horror TTRPG called Curseborne that seems interesting, I'd be interested in your review of it.

I backed the kickstarter so that I could read the manuscript. Trying to read through all the new capitalized jargon and godawful microfiction made my eyes bleed. From what I could tell, it was basically just an inferior rehash of WoD/CoD with all the interesting stuff sheared off because they don't have the rights anymore and don't have the creativity to make up for it. These are supposed to be the same guys who wrote Changeling: The Lost and Hunter: The Vigil, which are fucking amazing btw, but you wouldn't be able to tell from this eye-searing mess.

The splat structure is actually smaller than CoD, but somehow each splat is an idiosyncratic stereotype at least as bad as 1st edition WoD. Like, one of the non-vampire undead splats are just perky goths. Why is that even a splat? I've had my misgivings about splats for years now, but this is probably the most convincing evidence I ever saw that the concept is inherently stupid. The text isn't even pretending that these aren't thinly veiled high school cliques.

I don't see Curseborne ever entering the top 5 on the ICv2, much less staying the best selling after D&D and Pathfinder for a dozen quarters straight. Seriously, if anyone wants decent urban fantasy, then you have to write it yourself because the so-called professionals have completely lost their touch. Also, you should probably campaign for copyright terms to be shortened, because damn can these people not come up with good ideas in a vacuum. It's blatantly obvious here that CoD was only successful because it rebooted the essence of WoD.

If any Curseborne fans are reading this, then please don't take this as a personal attack. It's not.

You sure they make money just from minatures? Because there are video games, comics, books, etc. At this point Warhammer is bigger than figurines. And I don't really see the reason for Paradox not to give the license to anyone who is willing to make a game in exchange for part of the profit. As long as they won't have to shovel their money into such projects it's not like they would be losing anything from this kind of deal.

It's a bit difficult to dig out an actual number from their financial statements, at least from the ones I've seen. You can have a jab at it here:
https://investor.games-workshop.com/annual-reports-and-half-year-results

The video games, books and Warhammer+ videos are usually piled somewhere under "Trade," i.e. stuff that isn't sold by them directly, by their own outlets.
It is 50% of their income, but this category is a catch all for everything, including selling miniatures to unaffiliated retailers, which I imagine is the lion's share of that number, but how much exactly?

Perhaps a more indicative item are the core revenue vs. licensing revenue fields. In 2023, they got 445M English shekels vs. 25M revenue from licensing which isn't a whole lot,
I'd doubt if the suits consider these things as something more than just "advertising that happens to make us some money," so basically free.
Good games make the plastic (and resin) flow, bad games are quickly forgotten, so it's not like they're taking big risks here.

Beat me to it.

GW makes most of their money off miniatures. The licensing deals are a drop in the bucket.

So it's not a good proxy for Paradox. Paradox is a video game company. The legacy tabletop sales a drop in the bucket. Let me find some numbers...

According to ICv2, "The RPG industry is tiny. ICv2 estimates its total size (US/Canada) as only $105M in 2020." The overwhelming majority of that is D&D and Pathfinder. Everything else is basically a blip.

According to Wikipedia, Paradox's net income in 2020 was 490.6 million kr or 44.57 million USD. That's almost half of the entire ttrpg industry. Their revenue is bigger than the entire ttrpg industry.

So yeah, Paradox has zero economic incentive to keep WoD alive after BL2 bombs. Any money that the ttrpgs would make is a drop in their bucket and not worth investing in. Seriously, them buying the IP was a miracle after CCP destroyed it. That purchase only happened because one of the higher ups decided to make it his personal vanity project, before he later left the company. Paradox has been whoring out the IP and soiling the brand name beyond repair. There's nobody at the company who cares about a vanity project leftover from a prior management.

The only part that really surprises and annoys me is that anybody still holds out hope that the IP has any life left rather than making their own. The IP is extremely generic and it would be super easily to create competitors by drawing from public domain sources, such as The Everlasting. The IP liberally draws from the works of prior authors like Anne Rice, Brian Lumley, and Yuzo Takada. Anyone else could do the same. The continuing obsession with it just because Troika wrote Jeanette and co is pure autism.

Urban fantasy is probably one of the easiest genres to write. There's tons of examples: True Blood, Lost Girl, Jake Long, Juniper Lee, Anita Blake, Dresden Files, Vampire Files, Harry Potter, etc. It's just the fantasy genre transposed into a post-industrial tech level! If Paradox's godawful shovelware is the biggest representative of the genre in video games, then you really have nobody but yourselves to blame for that.

 

[ColaWerewolf]

Can anyone who's played Prelude give some indication as to how playable it is?
Is it good? Buggy? How long does it take to complete?

Thanks

 

[Wesp5]

Can anyone who's played Prelude give some indication as to how playable it is?
Is it good? Buggy? How long does it take to complete?

I am a little bit biased, as I was involved with some maps and QA of the mod , but I would say Prelude I is pretty much flawless and Prelude II sadly has some random crashes in one map, otherwise both are not very buggy. I like the dialogues of Prelude I much better than many of those in Prelude II which got too verbose and lore-dumping. Prelude II is longer than Prelude I and less linear, but it's hard too judge how long the playtime is. Maybe about 5 hours altogether? It's a short but very cool mod !