Revisiting VtM: Bloodlines

[Lacrymas]

Dragonfall's writing is not better than VtM:B's. What the source material for VtM:B provides is drama and that's good. It creates natural tension that either needs resolving or intensification, I.e. the point of writing. They just didn't resolve or intensify anything, so what we've got is drama with no payoff (most of the time).

 

[Excidium II]

Are you seriously saying that Altüg or Gunari Mettbach or Zaak Flash etcetera are even close to Fat Larry, Vandal, Rosa? With a straight face?

Would you care for those characters if they were just text? I honestly only remember them because of the actors.

Amusing example though, as a lot of what makes PS:T great is also derived straight from the incredibly rich source materials.

Ah but PST is a different beast in this case. PST just needed a setting crazy enough to support its narrative, Planescape provides the framework and ideas for Torment to be written. If Bloodlines team was handed Planescape license they'd just give a typical zany interplanar party traveling through craziest locations looking for some macguffins.

 

[Beautiful Clown Painting]

Are you sure of that?

The coffin is not a mac guffin, it is the device that screws the PC and everyone around, it's absolutely different. It has no value except for manipulating everybody, the player included.

Edit: sarcophagus.

 

[ZagorTeNej]

Which are the best characters.

Debatable, you're constantly going on about people confusing good voice acting for good writing when it comes to Bloodlines yet DiMaggio is one of the most prolific voice actors in the game.

Besides Mitsoda did some voice acting for the game as well (Dellamorte Dellamore gravekeeper, one of the retired Chinese hitmen in Chinatown, various Radio callers, actors in commercials etc.). He's clearly one of the main reasons Bloodlines turned out the way it did, maybe not to the extent Chris was for PST but close enough.

 

[Excidium II]

Are you sure of that?

The coffin is not a mac guffin, it is the device that screws the PC, it's absolutely different. It has no value except for manipulating it.

Edit: sarcophagus.

I'm not as sure because PST exists so at least there would be that inspiration. But I was tracing a parallel to the banal premise they used for a VtM game.

And the coffin the thing you chase for the entire game. Almost every location you visit is somehow related to it. It serves no purpose besides directing the plot.

 

[ZagorTeNej]

Truth is, it's hard to isolate good writing from other aspects unless you're playing a text adventure or something, all of those work in cohesion for you to form an impression of the game. A big part of the appeal of PST for me is the bizzare art direction, beautiful detailed isometric graphics, soundtrack that set the mood perfectly etc. not to mention that the game also had absolute heavyweights when it comes to voice acting, I mean Mitch Pilleggi and Keith David, c'mon now. I thought Sheena Easton and the Pretender guy did a stellar job as well.

 

[Excidium II]

Debatable, you're constantly going on about people confusing good voice acting for good writing when it comes to Bloodlines yet DiMaggio is one of the most prolific voice actors in the game.

Yeah, but that's exactly why. I'm counting only the character as they left writer's hands, not the actor's work. Which is good and enhances them incidentally.

I also like Isaac. And the Malk primogen if he counts. And Andrei.

 

[Beautiful Clown Painting]

Yes, but no one knows what it contains, neither the NPCs nor the PC. Ok, perhaps Jack or Caine/not Caine/Cab driver.
And this particular design is really clever, it's not only a mac guffin, it's layers upon layers of paranoia, which is, in my book, a great CRPG narrative.

 

[SCO]

Op should have used the unofficial patch. That is all.

 

[Lacrymas]

It is a McGuffin because the whole plot revolves around it and drives it forward, not the characters.

 

[Excidium II]

Yes, but no one knows what it contains, neither the NPCs nor the PC. Ok, perhaps Jack or Caine/not Caine/Cab driver.
And this particular design is really clever, it's not only a mac guffin, it's layers upon layers of paranoia, which is, in my book, a great CRPG narrative.

Great CRPG narratives can't be this railroaded.

A better premise would have been to focus on sect politics and the player's rise to some influential position instead of coffin mystary. That'd make a good sidequest or event in the game with the instability it'd cause. I mean VtM is a game that is stronger when the supernatural element is a backdrop, not the focus. What makes the vampires of this setting interesting is that they are mostly concerned with incredibly mundane affairs, not much different from a typical criminal organization. They just happen to be undead and have to deal with all the consequences that entails. While most vampire works are all about vampirism itself or the vampire's relation with humans, VtM is about intrigue.

 

[Beautiful Clown Painting]

I agree with you, but I think that Troika did not have the time and resources to initiate such a huge campaign. They did fall back to a kind of mac guffin, but they did it so beautifully, so elegantly that it all makes sense. And Bloodlines is still one of the best CRPGs ever.

 

[Excidium II]

Well, yeah, they were limited by many factors not the least of which it was to be an action RPG. I still think the storyline could have a more "mundane" theme while keeping the same structure.

That would also help the characters, if they were thought as people before being a ghoul or member of clan x/y/z and sect a/b/c.

 

[SCO]

I don't think bloodlines 'narrative' is all that great except insofar as other games are shit.

I liked that it kept deus ex shooting-sneaking-talking-hacking action-rpg mold, i liked i could metagame stat gain (unlike some games obsessed about 'balance'), i liked some of the voice actors, i liked some of the music and i liked some of the locations. A satisfying product.

 

[Excidium II]

^

 

[Prime Junta]

Op should have used the unofficial patch. That is all.

SCO should have read OP's post. That is all.

 

[SCO]

So why did you have trouble skipping the tutorial or the intro? There is a checkbox on chargen to skip the intro, and to skip the tutorial you just need to choose the right option the first time you talk to jack.

 

[ArchAngel]

Excidium is actually right in this, the interesting part of VtM:B's writing is the source material. They didn't do anything novel with it, they just used it and surprise, surprise - good source material, good end product. Some of the writing is good on its own, like Deb of Night, Jack, Lily, Malk primogen, maybe Vandal, maybe Jeanette/Therese. The other characters are mostly stereotypical clan members that do stereotypical things (Strauss, LaCroix, Andrei, Ming, Bach, The Giovanni, Garry(?)) or don't go anywhere (Ash, Andrei, The Giovanni, The Bishop, Nines). The serial killer character had potential, but it kinda ends disappointingly "my family won't like it!!!!" or some such crap. VV also had ...attributes. Surprisingly, your character was the one with the most characterization and change.

Not to mention that the entire thing doesn't go anywhere because they rushed it out the door. VtM:B's a good game though and the world needs a new good one (hint, hint Paradox).

EDIT: I'd even say that VtM:R's writing was somewhat better than B's , at least between Anezka and Christoff. It was kinda like a Shakespearean play

You are saying this like it is uncommon that even good source ends with bad games. It.happens.all.the.time!
By taking good source and keeping the spirit of it and making a good game out of it deserves all the praise this game gets! Or do you like the previous VtM game more and think it was better representing the good source?

Even in a much older and more experienced industry like movies/TV shows they fuck up good source all the fucking time. Look what they fucking did to Martin's books! FucK!

 

[Prime Junta]

Great CRPG narratives can't be this railroaded.

Oh Excidium, don't ever change.

Didn't you just hold up PS:T and SRR: DF as examples of better writing than VtM:B?

You know, two games with a narrative every bit as railroaded as VtM:B's... more in fact, in the case of DF?

On a more serious note -- what you're expressing here is a personal preference, not an objective measure of goodness. Some very good cRPG's are structured with a linear, railroaded narrative, sometimes with some branching (examples: The Witcher 1 and 2, PS:T), while other very good cRPG's are structured with an open narrative (Fallout 1, 2, and NV). One is not objectively better than the other, they're just different and offer different possibilities for the writers.

(Kinda weird that I have to even explain this, since this is so elementary and this is supposed to be a forum where people know their cRPG's from a hole in the ground.)

 

[Llama-Yak Hybrid]

Nevertheless, Bloodlines is one of the greatest RPG ever. For me, in recent times, only New Vegas came close to its brilliance.

Both of them are shit. I can write wall of text proving it but I know that I'll get endless "BUT MUUUUUUH STORYYYEYH!" retardposting so I won't.

 

[Prime Junta]

So why did you have trouble skipping the tutorial or the intro? There is a checkbox on chargen to skip the intro, and to skip the tutorial you just need to choose the right option the first time you talk to jack.

SCO needs to read more of the thread.

(In case SCO isn't so inclined, I missed the checkbox. I assumed hitting Esc or space would skip the cutscene, as it usually does.)

 

[ArchAngel]

Are you seriously saying that Altüg or Gunari Mettbach or Zaak Flash etcetera are even close to Fat Larry, Vandal, Rosa? With a straight face?

Would you care for those characters if they were just text? I honestly only remember them because of the actors.

Amusing example though, as a lot of what makes PS:T great is also derived straight from the incredibly rich source materials.

Ah but PST is a different beast in this case. PST just needed a setting crazy enough to support its narrative, Planescape provides the framework and ideas for Torment to be written. If Bloodlines team was handed Planescape license they'd just give a typical zany interplanar party traveling through craziest locations looking for some macguffins.

You are fucking clueless. Of course you write different if you don't have access to good graphics and good voice actors. Are you really trying to tell us that they would keep same conversations if the game didn't also have what it had?

Come the fuck on!

The whole package was done in a way that the game is on many, many top 10 RPGs of all times. There are plenty of AAA RPGs with good graphics and VO that are not.

 

[SCO]

Mmm another thing i liked about the game is that unlike most rpgs in fantasy settings it wasn't obsessive about 'loot' to the point that shit just filled your inventory to the max. Loot was sold almost immediately (unless you were metagaming and selling weapons before picking up duplicates instead of picking up ammo, in which case, may god have mercy on your hoarding soul).

It's not that i dislike items that have a puzzle purpose like PS : T ones, but shit like +1 dmg can go fuck off.

 

[Excidium II]

Didn't you just hold up PS:T and SRR:DF as examples of better writing than VtM:B?

You know, two games with a narrative every bit as railroaded as VtM:B's... more in fact, in the case of DF?

I didn't praise their narrative...

Railroaded games can still have good writing. In fact the better the writing is the more railroaded it tends to be. It's hard to mix player freedom and writing that is extensive enough to be judged good or bad. When you experience the events instead of reading about them it becomes a difficult thing to rate.

 

[Prime Junta]

^
:D

Yet you had no reservations praising FO:NV's writing.