Rome Total War II

[Dead Guy]

Which is kind of weird since Jack Lusted made one of the first good M2TW mods back when. I wouldn't know since I've not followed modding since M2TW but a quick glance at the hosted modifications forums at twcenter seems to indicate otherwise, and from what I remember at the last two releases, modders weren't exactly ecstatic about modding opportunities compared to RTW/M2TW.

 

[KoolNoodles]

Which is kind of weird since Jack Lusted made one of the first good M2TW mods back when. I wouldn't know since I've not followed modding since M2TW but a quick glance at the hosted modifications forums at twcenter seems to indicate otherwise, and from what I remember at the last two releases, modders weren't exactly ecstatic about modding opportunities compared to RTW/M2TW.

Jack Lusted did a 180 ever since they started paying him a salary. He is not a modder anymore and he doesn't give a shit about them. He lied just as much about ETW before the release as anybody else. He even helped "sell" it more to the hardcore fanbase by posting all the pre-release AARs and battle demonstrations making us all feel like "hey, our dude is on the inside and having a blast this is gonna be the shit".

Moving on to modding, it's not even a contest between the old games and the newer warscape engine games. People had to beg and plead for files to be unlocked in ETW, and that was after it was already a flop with fans and selling for $10 on Steam(CA promised a PFM[Pack File Manager] at release, they never bothered. Modders made one eventually). Even with that, ETW could hardly be modded at all(campaign map is static, for instance, AI can only get so many tweaks, some units are locked, etc.), not to mention all the confusion associated with various DLC. NTW and STW2 are similar in that their modding scope is very limited.

Just look at Third Age Total War for the scope you can get in MTW2. They made a huge giant ass map of Middle Earth, complete with brand new factions, huge settlements(Minas Tirith is a modeled castle that can be attacked in-game), Ents, movies added in-game, a billion scripts and on and on. It is easily the best LotR game made on any platform, and it is a free mod, for a game you can regularly find for $5.

Anything made on the warscape engine will never be like that, both because of their selfish DLC reasons, and because of how much harder it is to work with. ETW, a game made four years ago(god it is depressing to think about that), their flagship into a new era of Total War, still does not have a working multiplayer campaign and never will. Probably because realistically, they don't even know how to fix their own stupid engine.

PC Gamer UK enthusiastically proclaimed the game as "one of the most playable, important and accomplished games ever created".

I think it's safe to say we'll see more of the same for a mediocre game when RTW2 hits shelves.

 

[Trash]

Shogun 2, which remains the most moddable game we’ve ever released.

Jack Lusted is a saleryman who perfectly follows the company line to the letter. Nothing more. Nothing less. One of the people who lost all credibility through the development, release and support of Empire. That really was CA's biggest low so far.

Still, I actually enjoyed Shogun 2 and expect Rome 2 to be in the same vein. Not as good as it can be but as good as it's gonna get.

Still, it is kinda informative. For example we're given this gem.

Are there different seasons on the campaign map and how are they implemented? Is there attrition on the campaign map?
....Seasons do not make an appearance on the campaign map

 

[Infinitron]

RPS interview: http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2013/08/08/veni-vidi-dixi-total-war-rome-ii-interview/

 

[fizzelopeguss]

CA is the only company that makes me want to walk through their front doors and headbutt every fucker in sight. I know they can produce something truly spectacular with a slight change in priorities, but they won't, and it fucking winds me up.

 

[titus]

Still, it is kinda informative. For example we're given this gem.

Are there different seasons on the campaign map and how are they implemented? Is there attrition on the campaign map?
....Seasons do not make an appearance on the campaign map

Well, with one year per turn they can't really add seasons. It sucks, but it's not really that important. OTOH, nobody is asking/hearing/talking anything about the AI.

 

[Cursed Platypus]

http://forums.totalwar.com/showthread.php/72354-Jack-Answers!

Well I can pretty much say this whole Q&A was a giant fail when the dumbfuck answering thinks Shogun 2 was the most moddable game.

It is.
What if the modders, or the lack of thereof, was the problem here?

there is a difference between moddable (as in the variables the modders have access to mod the game) and difficult to mod (as in the tools need some time to master and you need to know how to create new models etc).

Shogun 2 is the most modable (as in what we can change), the matter is that it's not as easy as before to make modifications (ie changing text files).

As the ex-modder said, and which anybody who dwelled into them knows : ''Less hardcodes (no limit on number of units or factions for example), more data than ever exposed in db''.

Then there's also the models. The Europa Barbarorum 2 team confirmed : modding for Medieval 2 is slower and more tedious than modding for rome 1, simply because the standards for the models and textures are set higher.

Add to that, there are far less people willing to invest time and effort and make a shogun 2 mod.

 

[titus]

 

[KoolNoodles]

I had no idea there weren't seasons! What the fuck?! So we look at the same bland map the whole time? Even STW2 had seasons. Did they just not want to make extra battle maps? How hard is it to add a wintry skin to an existing map and throw in some snow? For fucks sake.....

 

[KoolNoodles]

Battle AI seems about what it was in Shogun 2, it looks out for some threats and sorta flanks(was very hard apparently, which means buffs as well), but nothing too dramatic. In other words, it's not as good as many mods for MTW2.

Concerned a little about how the hoplites looked, they shouldn't have really taken that much damage from some basic Roman troops charging straight into them.

 

[titus]

I had no idea there weren't seasons! What the fuck?! So we look at the same bland map the whole time? Even STW2 had seasons. Did they just not want to make extra battle maps? How hard is it to add a wintry skin to an existing map and throw in some snow? For fucks sake.....

They use RNG to determine the season right before a battle. Apparently adding dynamic snow textures and effects on the campaign map is too hard for them. However, they have some pre-determined attrition zones so when you go with your armies through there it will apply the effect. Also, I believe there are some always-winter regions. It would be pretty sad to see Hannibal's army go through the Alps wearing shorts in-game, while they are shown through heavy snow in the cinematic.

Hopefully modders will fix it.

 

[communard]

The only thing I've really liked of what has been shown so far are the unit cards. Holy fuck they're gorgeous.

Also fuck magic spells on generals.

 

[titus]

Battle AI seems about what it was in Shogun 2, it looks out for some threats and sorta flanks(was very hard apparently, which means buffs as well), but nothing too dramatic. In other words, it's not as good as many mods for MTW2.

Concerned a little about how the hoplites looked, they shouldn't have really taken that much damage from some basic Roman troops charging straight into them.

This was probably CA's attempt to please all the bitching about the AI being braindead. Hard or not, the guy's playing style and strategy sucked big time. Or he intended to lose - I don't know.
Not to say that the AI's force was what? Double?

Also, we have yet to see how the AI manages diplomacy. I have a feeling that they didn't improve it very much. Inb4 war-peace treaties spam

 

[communard]

Also, we have yet to see how the AI manages diplomacy. I have a feeling that they didn't improve it very much. Inb4 war-peace treaties spam

I'd say this is pretty much a given. It's obvious they don't give a fuck or they would have made an effort at some point in the last decade.

 

[Quilty]

Oh god, another reskinned Total War game with a braindead AI, broken diplomacy, a few somewhat cool gimmicks and a generous portion of dumbed down content that I will still be unable to ignore. For some reason I am even able to eke out some enjoyment out of Empire. I don't know what it is with me and TW games, it's a really unhealthy relationship...

 

[KoolNoodles]

Oh god, another reskinned Total War game with a braindead AI, broken diplomacy, a few somewhat cool gimmicks and a generous portion of dumbed down content that I will still be unable to ignore. For some reason I am even able to eke out some enjoyment out of Empire. I don't know what it is with me and TW games, it's a really unhealthy relationship...

It's part nostalgia/part remember good times/part the battles and presentation still look awesome as fuck. TW games have so much wasted potential. There's something about building and progressing an empire, and then watching your toys and characters go to battle. When you spend a couple years building a massive 120 gun Ship of the Line, after decades of research and infrastructure, which involved various land and sea battles to maintain.......and then lose it in a climactic battle shortly thereafter(or win, even)....that is compelling gameplay. Too bad they get so much wrong.

 

[Trash]

He's playing into the AI's strenghts while making all sorts of mistakes himself that he won't mention. Like pulling his general out of the area where he can support/buff his troops, managing his cavelery extremely poorly and extending his forces too much. That said, it looks like on par with Shogun 2's battle AI. And that one was rather decent.

 

[spectre]

Sweet lard, I cannot stomach watching this shit. Guy has cavalry advantage and he hides half of it in the woods to be torn apart by spear infantry instead of using the juicy open field right in front of him... and calls himself a distinctly average player, wow I dread to see the really bad ones.
Anyways, looks quite a bit like Shogun 2 AI indeed, which is good enough. Wonder how blatantly it'll cheat on the campaign map.
I frown at the growing number of additional activated skills. I know the WoW generation loves this shit, but added micro is not what suits total war imo.

I'm pretty dumbfounded at the fact that there's no seasons on the main map. I very much liked the 4 turns per year from Shogun, so I hope they don't come back to the 2/1 year per turn scheme. It's baffling since no reason for the engine not to handle it.

Oh god, another reskinned Total War game with a braindead AI, broken diplomacy, a few somewhat cool gimmicks and a generous portion of dumbed down content that I will still be unable to ignore. For some reason I am even able to eke out some enjoyment out of Empire. I don't know what it is with me and TW games, it's a really unhealthy relationship...

Well, to be frank, it's a rare thing, an AAA strategy game that manages to keep pretty consistent quality. Also, it's either TW or back to the good ole paradox map painting. Both get tedious after some time, but let's just come clean, everyone likes them some "visceral experience" every now and then.

 

[Trash]

Wonder how blatantly it'll cheat on the campaign map.

Loads. Every AI does in any strategy title. I don't really mind, as long as it won't summon units out of thin air or upgrade low class stuff into elite top tier ones when I don't look. Also the comment in the RPS preview where the Rome 2 previewer got outmanouvred on the campaign map gave me some hope. Especially as it was in the prologue and he once again mentioned it in the following interview in which the CA dev responded by them discussing on wether or not to tone down the preview campaign AI.

Perhaps we'll see a half decent campaign AI yet. What did piss me off in the interview was the tone of the dev. Every time the interviewer mentioned that he lost something to the AI the dev responded by saying he was sorry and that the previewer wasn't supposed to lose or have a hard time. Pretty clear they're deadly afraid to lose out on 'casuals' if word gets out the game might be challenging in any sort of way. That never bodes well for the actual release.

And fuck these added activated skills. Feature micro creep detected. Shit on that.

 

[DeepOcean]

I just wished that they improved the AI army composition, on Rome 1, most barbarians only produced cheap infantry and skirmishers that with the fact that units couldn't be pushed back (they added all this Hollywood shit but the mere fact of adding the possibility of units being pushed back and having their formation broken would be massive incline, as you would have to worry with line cohesion) , that made possible to massacre the the AI every time when defending a chokepoint like a bridge , the only thing you needed was some 500 men in each bridge and you could slaughter a 4000 army.

It was very easy to lure the AI into dividing it's forces with a smaller cavalry army and kill every isolated AI unit one by one, the harder modes were absolutely retarded to the point of your units melting even while fighting AI peasants, the unit pathfinding during sieges was atrocious, the AI was very dumbfuck on assaulting cities and siege battles were very clunky and by far the most common battle, that made me gave up on vanilla Rome and only really tried the mods that are way better, to me Rome 1 was broken to the point of almost being unplayable at release. I doubt that Rome 2 will be worse, the only thing that annoys me is the lack of a proper mod support.

 

[spectre]

Loads. Every AI does in any strategy title. I don't really mind, as long as it won't summon units out of thin air or upgrade low class stuff into elite top tier ones when I don't look.

Hence my question: how blatantly I remember shogun 2 being much more stomachable with the mod that allowed the AI to conjure up armies of peasants, but no more level 8 upgraded samurai.
I'm cautiously optimistic for the campaign AI in this iteration, it seems that they've went the shogun 2 route again, notice that there number of routes leading in and out of each province was limited, so I expect similar algorithms to be at work.

@DeepOcean
Yeah, higher difficulty levels in TW series is about stat and morale bonuses. It's not really rewarding.

 

[KoolNoodles]

I forget which "barbarian" tribe it was, but I remember in RTW there was one with these devastating horse archers. Just make an entire army of them and put on skirmish mode. Using the firing circle against infantry and just run against cav. They could outrun any light cav while still shooting and surround any infantry/heavy cav. Win battles with 3k kills and like 14 losses. Silly. Hope they make it in RTW2 so that someone can easily show how shitty the AI is.

 

[spectre]

Yeah, rome AI was really off at times. And M2 AI sometimes wouldn't even react to being shot at. I think Shogun 2 AI was a bit better at that. I haven't tried to field large amounts of horse archers yet, but iirc they died a lot to regular archers, so the scythian scenario isn't that likely.

IMO, choke points (rivers and sieges in particular) and coordinating attacks from two sides (which means both proper flanking without telegraphing and defending from two sides) is the biggest weakness of the current TW AI. Will see what they have to offer in this regard. The Shogun 2's ninja climbers were pretty retarded and exploitable... but it was some improvement at least.

 

[Spectacle]

I forget which "barbarian" tribe it was, but I remember in RTW there was one with these devastating horse archers. Just make an entire army of them and put on skirmish mode. Using the firing circle against infantry and just run against cav. They could outrun any light cav while still shooting and surround any infantry/heavy cav. Win battles with 3k kills and like 14 losses. Silly. Hope they make it in RTW2 so that someone can easily show how shitty the AI is.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Carrhae

 

[DeepOcean]

I forget which "barbarian" tribe it was, but I remember in RTW there was one with these devastating horse archers. Just make an entire army of them and put on skirmish mode. Using the firing circle against infantry and just run against cav. They could outrun any light cav while still shooting and surround any infantry/heavy cav. Win battles with 3k kills and like 14 losses. Silly. Hope they make it in RTW2 so that someone can easily show how shitty the AI is.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Carrhae

Nah... If horse archers worked so well, why the romans were never really treaten by anyone tha use them on mass? Heavy infantry on a square formation and the Parthians could fire a forest worth of arrows and do little damage, the problem was that Crassus was a terrible dumbfuck in that battle, there were alot more battles where the parthians were fucked really hard by the romans .

 

[Irenaeus]

I think that in reality, you can't retreat your horse archers forever.