Community RPG Codex GOTY 2019: Results & Cool Graphs

[V_K]

Well, do you think having to look for the waterchip for Vault 13 during an ENTIRE first half of the Fallout 1 is a 'chore'?

I do actually.

 

[Black Angel]

Well, do you think having to look for the waterchip for Vault 13 during an ENTIRE first half of the Fallout 1 is a 'chore'?

I do actually.

Why? The theme and the whole premise of Tim Cain's Fallout was exploring the rebuilding of civilization and society out of an old world (and its values) scorched into cinders. The fact that they NEED those drinking water is one surefire way to hook and lead you even deeper into the theme and the premise.

Heck, now that I think about it I'd imagine literally every first half of literally every RPG out there would be a 'chore' to you because I really can't think of a better way for RPGs to get you started.

 

[V_K]

Why? The theme and the whole premise of Tim Cain's Fallout was exploring the rebuilding of civilization and society out of an old world (and its values) scorched into cinders. The fact that they NEED those drinking water is one surefire way to hook and lead you even deeper into the theme and the premise.

Because it's just one big fetch quest and I don't really have a reason to care about the Vault's wellbeing? Maybe also because of a bit of a ludonarrative dissonance: for all the supposed rarity of clean water, neither the PC nor most of the NPCs ever have any problems with it.
To be honest, I could never get into either Fallout; I tried, but they just don't draw me in. I can't quite put my finger on why. But to be fair, the water chip quest is still better than what Underrail has because it's one multi-stage quest with stakes instead of a succession of barely connected quests with no stakes (though Underrail, at least to me, has a more exciting setting).

Heck, now that I think about it I'd imagine literally every first half of literally every RPG out there would be a 'chore' to you because I really can't think of a better way for RPGs to get you started.

I can. Off the top of my head: the murder mystery in Ultima 7; the eldritch horror cave in Quest for Glory 4; getting stranded on a mysterious island in Grimrock 2; the Curse of the Azure Bonds.

 

[Cross]

Why? The theme and the whole premise of Tim Cain's Fallout was exploring the rebuilding of civilization and society out of an old world (and its values) scorched into cinders. The fact that they NEED those drinking water is one surefire way to hook and lead you even deeper into the theme and the premise.

Because it's just one big fetch quest

By that logic anything can be considered a fetch quest. The term 'fetch quest' specifically refers to games filled with quests along the lines of 'gather 10 bear pelts' or 'pick up 5 mushrooms', quests where the primarily obstacle to overcome is the busywork of fetching things. The first part of the main quest of Fallout, where you go in search of a single key item, is nothing like that. It's a quest about exploring and investigating more than anything.

and I don't really have a reason to care about the Vault's wellbeing? Maybe also because of a bit of a ludonarrative dissonance: for all the supposed rarity of clean water, neither the PC nor most of the NPCs ever have any problems with it.

There is no ludonarrative dissonance. Securing the water chip is needed because the inhabitants of Vault 13 don't want to leave the safety and comfort of the vault to make a living in the dangerous outside world, not because water is necessarily scarce in the world of Fallout.

And you're wrong when you say that the PC never has a problem with water:

https://fallout.fandom.com/wiki/Water_flask
https://fallout.fandom.com/wiki/Outdoorsman

 

[ItsChon]

be honest, I could never get into either Fallout; I tried, but they just don't draw me in. I can't quite put my finger on why.

Because they're both massively overhyped. The games do a good job of creating a decent atmosphere in terms of their soundtrack and artistic cohesiveness, but the combat is terrible, UI in terms of inventory and dialogue is very clunky, none of the characters are particularly special, the setting is rather bland, and the quest design is rather basic.

stakes instead of a succession of barely connected quests with no stakes (though Underrail, at least to me, has a more exciting setting).

The game starts off with you just being admitted to a station. The fact that we get on with doing menial, station related jobs is a good thing I'd argue, because it establishes the fact that we're no one special and are just another South Gater like everyone else. This is reflected in our character's strength at the beginning of the game. Initially, it seems that the reason you get sent to Junkyard is because you're so new to the station that they haven't assigned you to a job yet, but as you get to the end game and discover certain bits of lore, you realize that there is much more interconnectedness than meets eye. To avoid spoilers, I won't bother going into it, but check the wiki or replay the game if you're interested.

 

[Infinitron]

the eldritch horror cave in Quest for Glory 4

I've said various things about Fallout on this forum over the years, some of them less well-considered than others.

One of the things I've said that's true, I think, is that Fallout must have been very impressive for somebody who'd been playing nothing but fantasy RPGs for years, just on account of it having a novel setting. But for somebody who'd experienced the setting smorgasbord of the classic adventure game canon, not so much.

"Wow, it has guns and mutants instead of swords and orcs! This is awesome!"

"You are like a little baby. Watch this."

 

[V_K]

By that logic anything can be considered a fetch quest.

fetch quest (plural fetch quests)

1. (role-playing games) A quest in which a MacGuffin must be acquired at some far-off location and given to the quest-giver or some other designated party.

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/fetch_quest
TVTropes has an even more broad definition, but that's too broad even for me. The scale of a fetch quest has nothing to do with the nature of it, nor the amount of macguffins to be gathered. Many an RPG's main quest is essentially a fetch quest, even the great ones like Star Trail or Wizardry 7, so in principle there's nothing wrong with it. Where (for me) the problem with Fallout's main fetch quest lies is 1) in the mindnumbing mundanity of the macguffin; 2) the way it's padded out with side quests. If you compare it with Wizardry 7, for example, the macguffin you have to fetch there is something that can alter the very fabric of the universe, plus the game showers you with additional mysteries from the start, like the Dark Savant and his plans or the Helazoids. Then there's also the fact that your party comes from a medieval fantasy world and has just discovered space travel. Finally, everything you do in the game connects to that main quest and its mysteries in one way or another instead of it being put on the backburner while you solve the problems of every NPC. It all just adds up to elevate the main fetch quest to something much more exciting.

There is no ludonarrative dissonance. Securing the water chip is needed because the inhabitants of Vault 13 don't want to leave the safety and comfort of the vault to make a living in the dangerous outside world, not because water is necessarily scarce in the world of Fallout.

But that just goes to make the main quest even more stake-less and mundane.

The game starts off with you just being admitted to a station. The fact that we get on with doing menial, station related jobs is a good thing I'd argue, because it establishes the fact that we're no one special and are just another South Gater like everyone else.

I have seen that line of reasoning when people praise Morrowind's Mage Guild questline and I can't help but WTF. Who the fuck care if it's realistic when it's boring? Making your beginning boring and lacking a hook is, like, the worst cardinal sin of narrative composition ever.

 

[felipepepe]

One of the things I've said that's true, I think, is that Fallout must have been very impressive for somebody who'd been playing nothing but fantasy RPGs for years, just on account of it having a novel setting. But for somebody who'd experienced the setting smorgasbord of the classic adventure game canon, not so much.

Fallout came out after Doom, Quake, Final Fantasy VII, Crusader No Remorse, Full Throttle, Superhero League of Hoboken, Cybermage, Bad Blood, Martian Dreams, Bloodnet, X-COM, Jagged Alliance, Albion, Strife, Myst, The Dig, etc... it's not about having a non-fantasy setting for the first time, even on an RPG, is about presenting is really fucking well.

The Fallout 1 intro is amazing, there was nothing even remotely close to that. It was edgy, cool and sounded really serious. So much that 20 years later Bethesda is still cashing on iconic elements you would see in the first 5 minutes of the game. There's nothing like it, what you are doing is like saying "lol, Star Wars is for posers, real sci-fi men were watching sci-fi movies like Zardoz way before 1977!"

 

[Fishy]

Fallout was amazingly open for its time. I still remember not wanting to be bothered by the investigation in junk town, so just walked to the desk of the mob boss and blew out his brain. Problem solved. Except it pissed off both his henchmen AND the local sheriff I was deputizing for. So I made it a ghost town, looted all I could, and the game just didn't care as long as I kept looking for that water chip. Gotta love a game where route 1 is *always* a valid option if you're equipped/stat'ed-up to pull it off.

Also, pickpocketing the guns of the bodyguards of the first travelling merchant I met to rob him was too hilarious for me to ever have a bad opinion about that game.

 

[Black Angel]

Because it's just one big fetch quest and I don't really have a reason to care about the Vault's wellbeing? Maybe also because of a bit of a ludonarrative dissonance: for all the supposed rarity of clean water, neither the PC nor most of the NPCs ever have any problems with it.

Adding to the points made by Cross regarding your ludonarrative dissonance argument:

1. You're only half correct about the PC and NPCs not having problems with drinking waters, because nowhere in the game does anybody says anything about their drinking water being *clean*. Fallout 2 even continue this little detail by having an NPC called Charlie in the outskirts of Vault City, lying inside his tent from radiation sickness after drinking unfiltered water from the well. If after 160 years since the war, there are still drinking water out there that can give you radiation poisoning, how do you think the situation is after some 80 years? Yeah, you don't get much cases like Charlie in Fallout 1. In fact, I think we don't get such cases at all. But that's why the NPCs in Fallout 1 congregate in settlements like Shady Sands, Junktown, the Hub etc etc, because that's where the clean water are aside getting some from trading with other settlements.
2. Literally at the start of the game, you get some water flasks in your inventory which, supposedly, prevent dehydration random encounters from occurring, and you can even get more from the water guard in Vault 13.
3. You also forgot that in Necropolis, the water pump is broken so the ghouls are forced to go back down to the vault to utilize their water chip to get clean drinking water. Taking the chip away without repairing the water pump (and winning the game before/without Super Mutants invading the town) would result in the ghouls demise from not having drinking water in the ending slides.
4. Hell, we get the Water Merchants, one of the major power players in The Hub. Their existence is why the wasteland seemingly have no problems with getting clean drinking water, because the WM managed to secure the water tower facility and holds monopoly of it and its distribution across the wasteland. Their content and gameplay even further reinforce this point by having their caravan run leave every 5 in-game days (compared to Crimson Caravan's twice a month and Far Go Traders's thrice a month) AND having the least random encounters during caravan running (albeit at the cost of giving the lowest pay each run). You can even ask them to deliver some drinking water to your vault to extend the first time limit, albeit at the cost of lowering Super Mutants invasion time-limit of the Vault (though only in the unpatched version, it seems).
5. Do I also need to mention that water plays a role in backing THE in-game's currency, the bottle caps?

To be honest, I could never get into either Fallout; I tried, but they just don't draw me in. I can't quite put my finger on why. But to be fair, the water chip quest is still better than what Underrail has because it's one multi-stage quest with stakes instead of a succession of barely connected quests with no stakes (though Underrail, at least to me, has a more exciting setting).

But the start of Underrail didn't took literally half the game, although that's a rather moot point since Fallout 1 is a much shorter game.

By that logic anything can be considered a fetch quest.

fetch quest (plural fetch quests)

1. (role-playing games) A quest in which a MacGuffin must be acquired at some far-off location and given to the quest-giver or some other designated party.

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/fetch_quest
TVTropes has an even more broad definition, but that's too broad even for me. The scale of a fetch quest has nothing to do with the nature of it, nor the amount of macguffins to be gathered. Many an RPG's main quest is essentially a fetch quest, even the great ones like Star Trail or Wizardry 7, so in principle there's nothing wrong with it. Where (for me) the problem with Fallout's main fetch quest lies is 1) in the mindnumbing mundanity of the macguffin; 2) the way it's padded out with side quests. If you compare it with Wizardry 7, for example, the macguffin you have to fetch there is something that can alter the very fabric of the universe, plus the game showers you with additional mysteries from the start, like the Dark Savant and his plans or the Helazoids. Then there's also the fact that your party comes from a medieval fantasy world and has just discovered space travel. Finally, everything you do in the game connects to that main quest and its mysteries in one way or another instead of it being put on the backburner while you solve the problems of every NPC. It all just adds up to elevate the main fetch quest to something much more exciting.

Without even bringing TVTropes into the arguments, the fact that you had to put a dictionary into your post is just obnoxious. The point Cross made there is the context; the fetch quests commonly designed in video games in general are the ones Cross mention, where in other words the quests can be summarized as 'bring X number of Y'. While THE Fetch Quest for the MacGuffin™ like Find the Water Chip of Fallout 1 is an overarching, high-stake quest that's not only fits right in within the setting, the premise and the whole context of the game, but also done exquisitely by virtue of taking you in a journey through half of the gameworld, being your major reason to explore. You compared it to Wizardry 7 where the macguffin there can alter the very fabric of the universe, but does good fetch quest REALLY needs to be about some World-Changing Superpowered Relic Artifact™? And that's not even to argue the fact that the Water Chip means a WHOLE LOT MORE than the world for the survival and sustainability of Vault 13.

And it's rather funny, too, for you to mention Wizardry 7's macguffin, because while Underrail ultimately ended up having you fetching some (seemingly) World-Changing Superpowered Relic Artifact™, it does it so seamlessly by having you continue doing your 'chore' for South Gate Station, helping a neighboring station which happened to be where two fellow Southgaters last contacted, whom happened to go missing and the reason why is because they possessed said World-Changing Superpowered Relic Artifact™.

There is no ludonarrative dissonance. Securing the water chip is needed because the inhabitants of Vault 13 don't want to leave the safety and comfort of the vault to make a living in the dangerous outside world, not because water is necessarily scarce in the world of Fallout.

But that just goes to make the main quest even more stake-less and mundane.

Again, it's high stakes because while water aren't exactly a problem in the wasteland, the vault has no means of supplying itself with *clean* drinking water without the water chip. And they can't just go out into the wastes because not only are they unequipped to survive out there, they're not educated and trained to do so, they also don't have possession of the currency being used in the wasteland at the time (bottle caps), and they (or rather the Overseer) had a reason NOT to just open the vault and let the dwellers be.
And it's not mundane because while the wasteland doesn't have drinking water problem, nowhere in-game do they mention the water being *clean*. The wasteland also don't just get *clean* drinking water problems lying around bottled or from some random well in the waste, they trade for it with the Water Merchants from the Hub, and, again, they used bottle caps to trade and the vault doesn't have any.

The game starts off with you just being admitted to a station. The fact that we get on with doing menial, station related jobs is a good thing I'd argue, because it establishes the fact that we're no one special and are just another South Gater like everyone else.

I have seen that line of reasoning when people praise Morrowind's Mage Guild questline and I can't help but WTF. Who the fuck care if it's realistic when it's boring? Making your beginning boring and lacking a hook is, like, the worst cardinal sin of narrative composition ever.

It's only boring for you, though. Not every game has to start off with Le Epic and Dramatic Introduction like... Alduin for some reason appearing right when the executioner is about to chop off the Dragonborn's head

Heck, now that I think about it I'd imagine literally every first half of literally every RPG out there would be a 'chore' to you because I really can't think of a better way for RPGs to get you started.

I can. Off the top of my head: the murder mystery in Ultima 7; the eldritch horror cave in Quest for Glory 4; getting stranded on a mysterious island in Grimrock 2; the Curse of the Azure Bonds.

Unfortunately I haven't yet the luxury to play these games

Because they're both massively overhyped. The games do a good job of creating a decent atmosphere in terms of their soundtrack and artistic cohesiveness, but the combat is terrible, UI in terms of inventory and dialogue is very clunky, none of the characters are particularly special, the setting is rather bland, and the quest design is rather basic.

never thought anybody, from the Codex of all people, would ever proclaim one of the best cRPGs out there as being """"""massively overhyped"""""". C'mon, man, Fallout is one of the major inspiration for Underrail.

I can understand the criticism for the combat, but how the fuck could UI and dialogue being 'clunky'? Hell, until now, I could never get the argument of *anything* being clunky. Yeah, the inventory could've used some more work, but the dialogue is fine as is and I actually love the aesthetic and presentation. The setting? Bland? The actual fuck? And quest design is nowhere near basic. Let's start with Shady Sands, literally the first settlement you encounter in the game along the way to Vault 15:

1. Getting rid of the radscorpions. You can either kill them all one-by-one, or plant an explosive at some point in the cave to seal it. You can do the first option alone, or enlist the help from Ian by having him joining you, either by paying him some caps or convince him with a Speech check while having sufficient INT to do so. The explosive you can get from Vault 15, or somewhere in the Khans's base. At least killing one radscorpion can let you loot their tail(s), which you could then give to the town's doctor to make antidotes. Too basic for you? Well, two in-game days after finishing this quest
2. Tandi is kidnapped, and you can get a quest to solve this problem. You can either (1) kill all the Khans, (2) challenge their leader to an unarmed combat, (3) pay the ransom, (4) intimidate the leader by passing a Speech check, (5) stealth killing the guards at the rear entrance then (5a) pick the lock to her cell or (5b) use explosive to blast open the door, or (6) some obscure solution where, with the right stats, right skills, and right equipment/items, you can fool the Khans into thinking you're their previous leader, of which you could then use to rescue Tandi by either enter from the rear entrance and do (5a), or confront the leader and fool him to release Tandi.

All this, literally only in the first settlement encountered at the start of the game. And the thing about content in Fallout 1 is how they ALL are intertwined, one way or another, most especially by way of caravan running from the Hub to ALL settlements (with the exception of Mariposa, Cathedral, Khans Base, and the Glow, for obvious reason, and for some reason Shady Sands, although a random encounter shows that there are caravans moving to and from Shady Sands) and back again.
The quests design of Fallout 1 might not be as good as.... well, I really can't think of any quests in Underrail which designs are much better than Fallout 1's, except [REDACTED]. But Fallout 1's quests designs are nowhere near basic. The only difference in technical level and design aspect between Fallout and Underrail's quests are, besides the fact that engine for either games are created from scratch, Styg and co ACTUALLY utilized Underrail's game engine to its fullest potential (while still improving it and adding more features to this day and possibly well into the future).... while Tim Cain does not, obviously because he left after doing some pre-production for Fallout 2 to form Troika, and even Black Isle devs at the time didn't truly harnessed the power of the game engine to its height... while some modders actually fucking did it, as demonstrated by Fallout 1.5: Resurrection and Fallout of Nevada.

 

[V_K]

Adding to the points made by Cross regarding your ludonarrative dissonance argument:

I said a bit of dissonance. As in, not having thirst as an in-game mechanic. I concede I didn't remember or didn't know most of what you two have mentioned - as I've said, the game never hooked me enough to give it a proper playthrough.

Without even bringing TVTropes into the arguments, the fact that you had to put a dictionary into your post is just obnoxious.

I referred to a dictionary because I'm obviously using the term "fetch quest" in a different sense than Cross, and I believe my definition to be the right one You're free to disagree of course, I'm not going to argue semantics.
My point in calling Fallout's main quest a fetch quest is that narrative-wise its premise/structure is formulaic and uninspired, not that it's there to pad gameplay. I've already said that gameplay-wise it works better than Underrails early stages busywork (though not as good as Wizardry's main fetch quest).

Again, it's high stakes because while water aren't exactly a problem in the wasteland, the vault has no means of supplying itself with *clean* drinking water without the water chip.

It may be high stakes for the vault, but it's really low stakes for the PC who seems to be doing mighty fine for himself in the wasteland. Even if we imagine him having some immediate family in the vault, there's nothing stopping him from relocating just them and letting other dwellers fend for themselves. If the rest of the vault dies, it would have absolutely no effect on the PC save for maybe a bit of grief. Ditto for it surviving. There's just no point to care.

It's only boring for you, though. Not every game has to start off with Le Epic and Dramatic Introduction like... Alduin for some reason appearing right when the executioner is about to chop off the Dragonborn's head

Just to make sure we're on the same page, I was talking about Underrail here and strictly in terms of narrative. You might not find the lack of the plot hook for the first several hours boring because you're enjoying the gameplay, but it's still very bad narrative design. Fallout's is better in that regard, but it hinges on the player becoming invested in the fate of Vault 13, which is a risky move. Compare it to Dragonfall's premise, which has been panned for exactly the same thing: assuming the player will care about Monica and her fate. But Dragonfall gives the PC personal stakes as well - figuring out who sent him on that fateful run and making sure the pursuers won't catch him unprepared.

Unfortunately I haven't yet the luxury to play these games

Ok, closer to your age reference range: Arcanum, if we put aside the prophecy stuff, has a pretty good premise in investigating the crash. PST, even though the amnesia trope is a bit stale, has a great hook. Heck, even Gothic - which has the initial setup very close to Underrail's - gives you a lot more coherence in its initial stages and wastes far less time to get you to the main plot.

 

[IHaveHugeNick]

Man you did a shoddy job painting that ceiling. Look how uneven the color is.

Hire a professional next time.

 

[IHaveHugeNick]

Strange Fellow

Not sure if serious? Fair enough, lets have a look at it then.

That is simply unacceptable.

 

[Butter]

I think those are shadows.

 

[IHaveHugeNick]

No, they're not, it's a botched texture. Whoever painted this isn't even qualified to paint his toenails.

This isn't a ceiling, it's an abomination.

 

[Butter]

Nah I'm pretty sure they're shadows. Look where the height of the ceiling changes. It's not a case of someone getting a bit of the wall colour on the edge of the ceiling. They'd have to be painting a solid foot in from the wall.

 

[Haba]

Obviously Infinitron now needs to take a better picture of his ceiling, with decent lighting.

 

[Ismaul]

Nah I'm pretty sure they're shadows.

It wouldn't change a thing though; still an abomination. It would mean the games on the shelves aren't properly lined up. Absolutely haram.

 

[fantadomat]

the eldritch horror cave in Quest for Glory 4

I've said various things about Fallout on this forum over the years, some of them less well-considered than others.

One of the things I've said that's true, I think, is that Fallout must have been very impressive for somebody who'd been playing nothing but fantasy RPGs for years, just on account of it having a novel setting. But for somebody who'd experienced the setting smorgasbord of the classic adventure game canon, not so much.

"Wow, it has guns and mutants instead of swords and orcs! This is awesome!"

"You are like a little baby. Watch this."

LoL burn that plastic garbage,send a video of the deed to greta,and then fill that space with good (actual) books!

 

[fantadomat]

"lol, Star Wars is for posers, real sci-fi men were watching sci-fi movies like Zardoz way before 1977!"

Meh both of those are for posers,real scifi fans were reading Azimov and huxley.

 

[IHaveHugeNick]

Nah I'm pretty sure they're shadows.

Games on the shelves aren't properly lined up

It gets worse, sometimes the title is aligned bottom-to-top, sometimes it's aligned top-to-bottom.

 

[Viata]

"lol, Star Wars is for posers, real sci-fi men were watching sci-fi movies like Zardoz way before 1977!"

Meh both of those are for posers,real scifi fans were reading Azimov and huxley.

You mean Mary Shelley, Jules Verne and H. G. Wells, right?

 

[Catacombs]

Is that really your room? It looks cool.

 

[fantadomat]

"lol, Star Wars is for posers, real sci-fi men were watching sci-fi movies like Zardoz way before 1977!"

Meh both of those are for posers,real scifi fans were reading Azimov and huxley.

You mean Mary Shelley, Jules Verne and H. G. Wells, right?

Didn't want to blow they mind with something so old. You could even add Lovecraft since he scrapping the border of the scifi genre. All good shit in the end. 19th century did have so really good writers.

 

[fantadomat]

No, they're not, it's a botched texture. Whoever painted this isn't even qualified to paint his toenails.

This isn't a ceiling, it's an abomination.

I am really not sure if you are serious. I mean,you can't be that dumb to not see that the light is coming from the bottom of the pic and that shit is actually shadows.