RPG Codex Interview: Chris Avellone on Pillars Cut Content, Game Development Hierarchies and More

[Latro]

so if bester gets feargus investigated by the IRS, does this mean communism works?

 

[Blakemoreland Hybrid Boss]

My role at Obsidian is "that RPG Codex dude who sends passive-aggressive shitposts to Josh Sawyer's Tumblr Q&A at least three times a week, trolls on Pillars of Eternity Twitch chats, tries to insert inappropriate memes as Kickstarter backer content, and stirs up drama on the forums every chance he gets"

Your pops is in trouble, son.

 

[Bocha]

Chris had not said he had assets to live 200 years? and you called the IRS ?

 

[toro]

so if bester gets feargus investigated by the IRS, does this mean communism works?

no

 

[janior]

That's a SPICY thread.

 

[Chris Avellone]

More information: The de-ownering separation contract I was given was pretty strict (which again is good business, especially if you’re pretty sure the person is going to have to sign).

Among the first elements I objected to was that the contract had a “you must sign this in 10 days or else you get nothing.”

For the record for any other employees in this situation (at least in California), this is something you can absolutely fight back on, so do check with your lawyer.

To be fair, they were pushing for a swift resolution along with the NDA, which again is good business - and according to discussions after the departure, that clause seemed to have worked with other employees who didn’t check (they were in similar financial situations, though).

What was troublesome was the fact the NDA wasn’t mutual despite the mutual separation agreement (they could say whatever they wanted, but I would have no legal recourse – not only about that, but anything), which understandably, made me uncomfortable.

Again, that’s good business if you can get someone to sign that. I did argue that a mutual separation agreement should, in fact, be mutual.

As I said, the 10 days or else did turn out not to be legally binding when confronted on and may have been dropped, but that was the specs of the contract I was hit with, and another reason I didn’t sign it. (The medical insurance time limits I couldn’t do anything about.)

I don’t recall much about the Tyranny contract offer because I didn’t want to work on it based on what was going on, and arguably, I was too focused on the primary contract.

If I had signed the first de-ownering contract, however, with the non-competes, the problem would be that Tyranny would actually be the only RPG option I would have to work on (and any other Obsidian-sponsored RPGs they chose to exclude from the de-ownering agreement), so rather than being an olive branch, it was more, “here’s how we own you twice, still get you to write as always, but at a fraction of the cost.”

 

[Blakemoreland Hybrid Boss]

so if bester gets feargus investigated by the IRS, does this mean communism works?

It means the government is proactive in stealing taking money from private enterprises.

 

[Infinitron]

More information: The de-ownering separation contract I was given was pretty strict (which again is good business, especially if you’re pretty sure the person is going to have to sign).

Among the first elements I objected to was that the contract had a “you must sign this in 10 days or else you get nothing.”

For the record for any other employees in this situation (at least in California), this is something you can absolutely fight back on, so do check with your lawyer.

To be fair, they were pushing for a swift resolution along with the NDA, which again is good business - and according to discussions after the departure, that clause seemed to have worked with other employees who didn’t check (they were in similar financial situations, though).

What was troublesome was the fact the NDA wasn’t mutual despite the mutual separation agreement (they could say whatever they wanted, but I would have no legal recourse – not only about that, but anything), which understandably, made me uncomfortable.

Again, that’s good business if you can get someone to sign that. I did argue that a mutual separation agreement should, in fact, be mutual.

As I said, the 10 days or else did turn out not to be legally binding when confronted on and may have been dropped, but that was the specs of the contract I was hit with, and another reason I didn’t sign it. (The medical insurance time limits I couldn’t do anything about.)

I don’t recall much about the Tyranny contract offer because I didn’t want to work on it based on what was going on, and arguably, I was too focused on the primary contract.

If I had signed the first de-ownering contract, however, with the non-competes, the problem would be that Tyranny would actually be the only RPG option I would have to work on (and any other Obsidian-sponsored RPGs they chose to exclude from the de-ownering agreement), so rather than being an olive branch, it was more, “here’s how we own you twice, still get you to write as always, but at a fraction of the cost.”

What was the upside for you here? Would you have gotten some money if you'd signed?

 

[toro]

More information: The de-ownering separation contract I was given was pretty strict (which again is good business, especially if you’re pretty sure the person is going to have to sign).

Among the first elements I objected to was that the contract had a “you must sign this in 10 days or else you get nothing.”

For the record for any other employees in this situation (at least in California), this is something you can absolutely fight back on, so do check with your lawyer.

To be fair, they were pushing for a swift resolution along with the NDA, which again is good business - and according to discussions after the departure, that clause seemed to have worked with other employees who didn’t check (they were in similar financial situations, though).

What was troublesome was the fact the NDA wasn’t mutual despite the mutual separation agreement (they could say whatever they wanted, but I would have no legal recourse – not only about that, but anything), which understandably, made me uncomfortable.

Again, that’s good business if you can get someone to sign that. I did argue that a mutual separation agreement should, in fact, be mutual.

As I said, the 10 days or else did turn out not to be legally binding when confronted on and may have been dropped, but that was the specs of the contract I was hit with, and another reason I didn’t sign it. (The medical insurance time limits I couldn’t do anything about.)

I don’t recall much about the Tyranny contract offer because I didn’t want to work on it based on what was going on, and arguably, I was too focused on the primary contract.

If I had signed the first de-ownering contract, however, with the non-competes, the problem would be that Tyranny would actually be the only RPG option I would have to work on (and any other Obsidian-sponsored RPGs they chose to exclude from the de-ownering agreement), so rather than being an olive branch, it was more, “here’s how we own you twice, still get you to write as always, but at a fraction of the cost.”

Stop posting. For real.

 

[Janslin]

More information: The de-ownering separation contract I was given was pretty strict (which again is good business, especially if you’re pretty sure the person is going to have to sign).

Among the first elements I objected to was that the contract had a “you must sign this in 10 days or else you get nothing.”

For the record for any other employees in this situation (at least in California), this is something you can absolutely fight back on, so do check with your lawyer.

To be fair, they were pushing for a swift resolution along with the NDA, which again is good business - and according to discussions after the departure, that clause seemed to have worked with other employees who didn’t check (they were in similar financial situations, though).

What was troublesome was the fact the NDA wasn’t mutual despite the mutual separation agreement (they could say whatever they wanted, but I would have no legal recourse – not only about that, but anything), which understandably, made me uncomfortable.

Again, that’s good business if you can get someone to sign that. I did argue that a mutual separation agreement should, in fact, be mutual.

As I said, the 10 days or else did turn out not to be legally binding when confronted on and may have been dropped, but that was the specs of the contract I was hit with, and another reason I didn’t sign it. (The medical insurance time limits I couldn’t do anything about.)

I don’t recall much about the Tyranny contract offer because I didn’t want to work on it based on what was going on, and arguably, I was too focused on the primary contract.

If I had signed the first de-ownering contract, however, with the non-competes, the problem would be that Tyranny would actually be the only RPG option I would have to work on (and any other Obsidian-sponsored RPGs they chose to exclude from the de-ownering agreement), so rather than being an olive branch, it was more, “here’s how we own you twice, still get you to write as always, but at a fraction of the cost.”

Stop posting. For real.

You first!

 

[Maculo]

I thought about that, but I am still inclined to start with state authorities first. Furthermore, Bester's complaint appears to focus on ghost employees (i.e.,the employee does not exist), whereas here the employees do exist, but those employees are family members with questionable duties.

Well, LA county district attorney has a white collar crime division, so that’s probably the best bet.

http://da.co.la.ca.us/contact/office-directory/white-collar-crime-division

The more I think on the issue, the less confident I am with the ghost employee theory. Based on Avellone's posts, it is not fake employees that don't exist, so much as nepotism. With the nepotism angle, the constructive dividend idea is a good thought. Still, I think I would involve the IRS last, and try state remedies first. At the very least, see an attorney or police officer.

 

[The Wall]

so if bester gets feargus investigated by the IRS, does this mean communism works?

Still no, but it's definitve proof RPG Codex works and there's no more prestigious, knowledgeable and influental RPG forum in DA WORLD!

We gave Feargus a chance, our yeyo, loyalty during POE Kickstarter. We also gave him warning:

Codexoza's warning to Feargus Obsidiana

Did he listen? Fuck he listened! He tried to fuck us over with balance, with triangles, squares and other geometric shapes and then he fucked with our babe, our drug. Our Chris Avellone

Codexoza's last phone call with Feargus Obsidiana

As we speak, army of IRS agents (New Mexico division for some reason) are circling Obsidiana's mansion. The conclusion will come soon. WE told him to not fuck us, that little Half-Ogre greedy mofo!

Obsidiana's mansion under siege

One of last Feargus' words were: 'Hmphhh say hello to my own little Baldur's Gate 2'. But special IRS assassin Bester was approaching him from behind with Tax fraud papers...

 

[Kyl Von Kull]

No wonder the situation blew up: Chris Avellone is a lawful good paladin, while Feargus is a poorly optimized chaotic evil wizard with maybe 12 intelligence (if we’re being generous). Perhaps neutral evil? These contracts certainly reek of Baatezu, but I can’t imagine a true denizen of Baator would be so terrible at managing the company finances.

MRY, you should offer Chris your services. It may not be your usual practice area, but how many other times will you get the opportunity to bill a client for time spent on RPG Codex?

 

[Prime Junta]

Chris, from what you mention here in the contract details, it does sound *very* troubling. What I do not understand is what made things so bitter that they tried to do this to you!

Spoiler

this thread is spiraling rapidly into insanity

 

[toro]

More information: The de-ownering separation contract I was given was pretty strict (which again is good business, especially if you’re pretty sure the person is going to have to sign).

Among the first elements I objected to was that the contract had a “you must sign this in 10 days or else you get nothing.”

For the record for any other employees in this situation (at least in California), this is something you can absolutely fight back on, so do check with your lawyer.

To be fair, they were pushing for a swift resolution along with the NDA, which again is good business - and according to discussions after the departure, that clause seemed to have worked with other employees who didn’t check (they were in similar financial situations, though).

What was troublesome was the fact the NDA wasn’t mutual despite the mutual separation agreement (they could say whatever they wanted, but I would have no legal recourse – not only about that, but anything), which understandably, made me uncomfortable.

Again, that’s good business if you can get someone to sign that. I did argue that a mutual separation agreement should, in fact, be mutual.

As I said, the 10 days or else did turn out not to be legally binding when confronted on and may have been dropped, but that was the specs of the contract I was hit with, and another reason I didn’t sign it. (The medical insurance time limits I couldn’t do anything about.)

I don’t recall much about the Tyranny contract offer because I didn’t want to work on it based on what was going on, and arguably, I was too focused on the primary contract.

If I had signed the first de-ownering contract, however, with the non-competes, the problem would be that Tyranny would actually be the only RPG option I would have to work on (and any other Obsidian-sponsored RPGs they chose to exclude from the de-ownering agreement), so rather than being an olive branch, it was more, “here’s how we own you twice, still get you to write as always, but at a fraction of the cost.”

Stop posting. For real.

You first!

There is a high probability that he is breaking the NDA by posting more stuff. While I enjoy the show I'm not retarded enough not to think that there will be legal repercussions for this.

Instead of posting on codex Chris should talk with his lawyers asap. I'm really on his side.

Edit: He did not sign. Sorry. Emotions

 

[The Great ThunThun*]

At this point I agree 100% with toro. Although, toro, he did *not* sign the NDA.

 

[Latro]

No wonder the situation blew up: Chris Avellone is a lawful good paladin, while Feargus is a poorly optimized chaotic evil wizard with maybe 12 intelligence (if we’re being generous). Perhaps neutral evil? These contracts certainly reek of Baatezu, but I can’t imagine a true denizen of Baator would be so terrible at managing the company finances.

FEAR-GUS ORC-HEART:

lvl 7 half-orc wizard

STR: 11
CON: 12
DEX: 8
INT: 11
WIS: 9
CHR: 7

 

[Maculo]

I do not know how effective this will be Bester. First, is this a matter of tax fraud or accounting fraud (e.g., embezzlement)? Your main description does not allege that Obsidian is dodging taxes or paying less in taxes (if anything, paying more taxes), but rather that friends and family are holding sham positions and being paid. This could be a crime (I have further questions about it in point #2), just perhaps not one that involves the IRS. Instead, this may fall under the review of state authorities that investigate accounting fraud/embezzlement.

...

You are more than welcome to file this, it is your choice. I just do not see much coming from it. If anything, this would be a State of California matter.

I haven't read all the posts since the last time I was on, but if this ghost employee practice is indeed illegal (which wasn't mentioned whenever it actually happened), I'd be curious to know.

If so, Bester, I do appreciate what you did, plus making me aware of that as an issue. If there's a step-by-step process anyone knows on how to file these complaints, I'd love to hear them.

On a related note to this issue, this wasn't the only family members who Feargus attempted to bring on. Feargus did try and have both his young children added as employees at the studio during my last year there, but the other owners fought back and made it clear that (1) not only was it illegal b/c of the age requirements, (2) there was no way to defend against someone being able to prove his two children didn't work there (obviously, Feargus's children are far below age of employment so if it was somehow proven, there would be additional problems), but most importantly, on a higher level, it was seen an unethical and wrong thing to try and do.

The conversations about this were difficult because it was an issue related to employment + family, which made an otherwise easy decision of "no" increasingly angry and complicated, which was frustrating. It was something that shouldn't have been suggested, discussed, or brought up at all.

I wish I had a better answer for you, but you really need to talk to someone licensed or versed in Cali law to see what this may fall within. While nepotism may be bad business practice, it may not always be illegal. Whether it crosses that threshold into illegal activity is fact dependent. For example, there is a huge difference between someone paying their teenage son $100,000 for a "full time job" and $2,000 for a summer internship.

 

[IHaveHugeNick]

Because an owner may try to structure payments to the reduce tax implications. As Mustawd stated prior, a dividend (i.e. payment to shareholder) typically has a higher tax burden than a wage.

Great, except there's one problem - you don't have a slightest idea if any of that is/was occurring. More importantly, neither does Chris. The only information we actually have is that owners wife is on the books doing some shit that's probably useless. Shit like that is extremely common, and if you think 30 armored squads are about to start busting down doors at Obsidian because some of the owners have hired their wives, you need to lay of Mountain Dew.

 

[The Wall]

Guys, everything is unfolding according to Chris Avellone's master plan! Just play along!


Pssst! Hey Chris, what was the plan again? And is Sawyer really a shapeshifting cat?

 

[Maculo]

Great, except there's one problem - you don't have a slightest idea if any of that is/was occurring. More importantly, neither does Chris. The only information we actually have is that owners wife is on the books doing some shit that's probably useless. Shit like that is extremely common, and if you think 30 armored squads are about to start busting down doors at Obsidian because some of the owners have hired their wives, you need to lay of Mountain Dew.

True, we do not know if this conduct crossed that threshold yet, but it may be worth it for Chris Avellone to talk to a Cali lawyer at the very least. There is a big difference between a fifteen year old son receiving $20,000 a year to do nothing, and a wife that handles bookkeeper matters for $20,000 for the company. Nepotism is not per se illegal, but one of my prior examples is far less defensible than the other.

 

[toro]

At this point I agree 100% with toro. Although, toro, he did *not* sign the NDA.

If I had signed the first de-ownering contract, however, with the non-competes, the problem would be that Tyranny would actually be the only RPG option I would have to work on (and any other Obsidian-sponsored RPGs they chose to exclude from the de-ownering agreement), so rather than being an olive branch, it was more, “here’s how we own you twice, still get you to write as always, but at a fraction of the cost.”

This implies that he signed a "second" de-ownering contract. Am I losing my mind?

 

[Darth Roxor]

Also Chris Avellone, I just gotta ask, even though it might derail a bit from the current fascinating track:

Was there any reaction to the One True Poe Review (tm) at Obs office?

 

[Prime Junta]

It'd be clearer if he just posted all the paperwork here.

 

[Alpan]

At this point I agree 100% with toro. Although, toro, he did *not* sign the NDA.

If I had signed the first de-ownering contract, however, with the non-competes, the problem would be that Tyranny would actually be the only RPG option I would have to work on (and any other Obsidian-sponsored RPGs they chose to exclude from the de-ownering agreement), so rather than being an olive branch, it was more, “here’s how we own you twice, still get you to write as always, but at a fraction of the cost.”

This implies that he signed a "second" de-ownering contract. Am I losing my mind?

He's probably referring to the "Oh, so you aren't signing? Fuck right off then." documents he signed to actually legally sever his ties with the company, which in all likelihood lead to his de-ownering without receiving a dime.