RPG Codex Interview: Chris Avellone on Pillars Cut Content, Game Development Hierarchies and More

[Imoens pet]

Some guy named Gregorovitch over on steam, hates Chris.

Where would we be without these important updates?

Omg make you sure you rate my comments pl0x. I wanna be numba one helpful guy.

 

[Darth Roxor]

So I think it'd be going too far to reach the conclusion that Obsidian == shitty programmers. I lean more towards the idea of "Obsidian == mismanaged writing and design, fairly strong technical backbone".

"fairly strong technical backbone", which is why every single obsidian game to date has been a technical trainwreck

thats some serious reality warping right there

 

[Imoens pet]

Some guy named Gregorovitch over on steam, hates Chris.

Where would we be without these important updates?

Also

x 1 emote

Just pretend that I rated your comment.

 

[Blakemoreland Hybrid Boss]

Sawyer is finally vindicated after years of Codex's autistic bigotry.

Now Feargus can take his place.

Fenstermaker singe handedly managed to drive Ziets and other creative talents away from Obsidian. This guy is a parasite and his profile picture truly is fitting.

Together with Fenstermaker.

 

[Infinitron]

Anyway I think MCA has gone to bed.

Poll: Should I prosperize Imoens pet?

 

[Imoens pet]

Anyway I think MCA has gone to bed.

Poll: Should I prosperize Imoens pet?

;thinking emote activate;

 

[Pommedeterre]

Long time lurker here, I can't believe this shit show is happening right now, can't you guys wait until Project Indiana is released ?

 

[AwesomeButton]

Hmmm, and yet the evidence suggests that Obsidian if anything has a stronger technical and production backbone (programming, art) than some of the other studios we watch on the Codex. Something I posted in the Torment thread last year:

Indeed. My explanation would be that good programmers are in high demand and teribly difficult to attract with the low salaries and hectic management, which seem to be Obsidian's trademark. Programmers, especially the experienced ones, are on the whole less probable to stay at Obsidian just for the thrill of working on games.

Now, dangerhair "writers", they are easier to stock up on, but I don't want to get started on them again.

 

[Imoens pet]

Wait can I be banned for using my low class emotes?

 

[dragonul09]

So I think it'd be going too far to reach the conclusion that Obsidian == shitty programmers. I lean more towards the idea of "Obsidian == mismanaged writing and design, fairly strong technical backbone".

"fairly strong technical backbone", which is why every single obsidian game to date has been a technical trainwreck

thats some serious reality warping right there

You can put Infinitrons love for Obsidian in the same bowl as the people who think Piranha Bytes still makes good games, delusional, stubborn and ready to eat whatever these talentless hacks shit on their plate

 

[Imoens pet]

K

I am going to continue using my poor mans excuse of an emote.

 

[Cross]

Hmmm, and yet the evidence suggests that Obsidian if anything has a stronger technical and production backbone (programming, art) than some of the other studios we watch on the Codex.

Being better than the bottom of the barrel doesn't mean you're competent. Harebrained and InXile are mobile developers (well, mobile and shovelware in the case of InXile).

It's quite damning that Obsidian still couldn't get the basics of RTwP right even after they had spent more than a decade developing RTwP games.

 

[Infinitron]

I wonder if Chris Avellone has ever had any interaction with Harebrained Schemes.

 

[Blakemoreland Hybrid Boss]

EFen is among the best game writers currently working.

The words cRPG writer and Narrative Designer should be abolished from our vocabulary.

 

[a bear named spigot]

Anyway I think MCA has gone to bed.

Poll: Should I prosperize Imoens pet?

yes, and move all their posts into a single inane thread

 

[Russia is over. The end.]

So I think it'd be going too far to reach the conclusion that "Obsidian == shitty programming". I lean more towards the idea of "Obsidian == mismanaged writing and design, compensated by fairly decent technical backbone".

Can't make any definitive conclusions, but here's my thoughts on the matter.

What irked me the most was the story of how much they struggled to make their own engine, and in the end they didn't use it, because it became "dated" or however the story goes. This to me suggests that it was architecturally bad. Here's why: A recent example - FROM Software decided to do a DS1 remaster and what they ended up doing was simply moving the data from the DS1 engine into the DS3 engine. And it just worked, with some tweaking. That's because the DS3 engine was an upgrade of DS2 and DS1 engines, and the abstraction layers were just in the right places to allow this. Very impressive. They moved the data and it just hooked up with everything else perfectly. That's the way to do RPG engines.
Obsidian's engine, on the other hand, from what I understand of their quotes, was so un-modular and so bad, that they decided they couldn't even upgrade their renderer (or whatever other component they considered 'dated'). They literally deemed it impossible and abandoned the poor thing.
If my understanding of that story is correct, then yeah, that's bad programming.

2) That story about the revolver reload interruption system taking a month to implement = looks like bad programming without any more details.

3) Low fps in isometric games = looks like bad programming. I know they said it many times that they do optimizations literally before release, but I have no idea why you'd implement a feature in a bad way to require such heavy optimizations in the first place. Implementing a feature in a bad way doesn't usually save time, in my experience anyway.

Still, they manage to ship games, so someone must know something at Obsidian.

Upd:
P.S. If they do have bad programmers - it's definitely a management problem.

 

[Infinitron]

What irked me the most was the story of how much they struggled to make their own engine, and in the end they didn't use it, because it became "dated" or however the story goes. This to me suggests that it was architecturally bad. Here's why: A recent example - FROM Software decided to do a DS1 remaster and what ended up doing was simply moving the data from the DS1 engine into the DS3 engine. And it just worked, with some tweaking. That's because the DS3 engine was an upgrade of DS2 and DS1 engines, and the abstraction layers were just in the right places to allow this. Very impressive. They moved the data and it just hooked up with everything else perfectly. That's the way to do RPG engines.
Obsidian's engine, on the other hand, from what I understand of their quotes, was so un-modular and so bad, that they decided they couldn't even upgrade their renderer. They literally deemed it impossible and abandoned the poor thing.
If my understanding of that story is correct, then yeah, that's bad programming.

I haven't heard that they struggled to make it, but it was an engine for making the sort of games that Obsidian thought that they would be making when they were founded, ie post-2003 BioWare clones, so I'm not sure we would have wanted them to use it.

(Speaking of BioWare, look at what having to use an in-house first person shooter engine to make Mass Effect did to them)

 

[Wunderbar]

A recent example - FROM Software decided to do a DS1 remaster and what ended up doing was simply moving the data from the DS1 engine into the DS3 engine.

but Dark Souls Remastered isn't running on DS3 engine, it was a false rumor.

https://www.destructoid.com/dark-souls-remastered-will-not-be-using-new-assets-482196.phtml

 

[Sextant]

Chris Avellone , how much were you bench pressing at your peak? Squat? Deadlift? Curls?
I think this is the most important question here.

 

[Russia is over. The end.]

What irked me the most was the story of how much they struggled to make their own engine, and in the end they didn't use it, because it became "dated" or however the story goes. This to me suggests that it was architecturally bad. Here's why: A recent example - FROM Software decided to do a DS1 remaster and what ended up doing was simply moving the data from the DS1 engine into the DS3 engine. And it just worked, with some tweaking. That's because the DS3 engine was an upgrade of DS2 and DS1 engines, and the abstraction layers were just in the right places to allow this. Very impressive. They moved the data and it just hooked up with everything else perfectly. That's the way to do RPG engines.
Obsidian's engine, on the other hand, from what I understand of their quotes, was so un-modular and so bad, that they decided they couldn't even upgrade their renderer. They literally deemed it impossible and abandoned the poor thing.
If my understanding of that story is correct, then yeah, that's bad programming.

I haven't heard that they struggled to make it, but it was an engine for making the sort of games that Obsidian thought that they would be making when they were founded, ie post-2003 BioWare clones, so I'm not sure we would have wanted them to use it.

(Speaking of BioWare, look at what having to use a first person shooter engine to make Mass Effect did to them)

An RPG engine with correct modular architecture can and should be utilized to make different types of RPGs if done well.

That's the thing. They couldn't do it.

Another example of this to a lesser extent is how they used large chunks of IE code in Aurora according to A. Davis, to such an extent that he calls it "the same engine".

 

[Infinitron]

Another example of this to a lesser extent is how they used large chunks of IE code in Aurora according to A. Davis, to the point where he calls it "the same engine".

I agree that oldschool BioWare were better coders than Obsidian and so is Larian today, but overall it's slim pickings out there.

 

[Roguey]

This is very interesting. Among players this is often seen as "Bethesda is EVIL and screwed Obsidian out of their money", but seems like it was really a "good job!" bonus that Bethesda proposed and Obsidian simply failed to meet the expectations.

This thread has been eye-opening in so many ways...

Brian Fargo confirmed that they moved the release date up mid-development which makes "meeting expectations" significantly harder.

 

[Snorkack]

Wow, what a nice ride for a sunny sunday afternoon this thread was. Thanks to Fairfax, Bester and of course Chris Avellone for many insights and laughs.

Is there already some fallout noticeable at the friendly folks of Obsidian? Also,

Chris Avellone , how much were you bench pressing at your peak? Squat? Deadlift? Curls?
I think this is the most important question here.

I wholeheartedly agree, we need to know this!

 

[Maculo]

That is where I get conflicted. Avellone's contempt appears directed at the upper management and not so much the developers (with exception). I still am curious if Sawyer falls within the alleged clique of those getting special treatment. Still, there is Tim Cain and Leonard Boyarsky (for now...).

I want to apologize if I missed any questions, it’s hard to track them all in the thread – if I missed someone, I apologize, it wasn’t personal, there’s just a lot to read (and apparently on Reddit, too, which I didn’t realize).

I don’t have any issues with Josh, he’s not part of the upper management I mention here (he wasn’t even Design Director until a while after I left, I believe), and I think he’s a good Project Director. I also don’t have any issue with Tim, Leonard, Charlie, Tyson, Rich (Taylor) etc. and they are not part of this either - I like them all and respect their work very much. I am looking forward to Project Indiana.

Josh did turn in his resignation more than once, and apparently (!) Feargus did threaten to fire him and Adam if PoE1 didn’t come out in March, which I never knew. (Yes, owners didn’t talk amongst themselves when they threatened to fire senior employees, apparently, because why would they – it was symptomatic of the poor communication at the studio. I also was never told when Feargus decided to move PoE1's ship date from Sept to March, he didn't mention that fact, either) I only heard about the firing threat when I read about it in Blood, Sweat, and Pixels (at least in the draft I read). I think threatening to fire Josh and Adam under any circumstances isn't a smart move, especially since Obsidian always struggled with trying to find good leads and good programmers. I don't ever think you should threaten employees like that, either.

I also support the idea of making financial and resource sacrifices if it will make the end result better (I supported PoE2’s delayed launch), which was also apparently the crux of the threat.

Special treatment is a much larger issue because all that I observed wasn't consistent, it often made things confusing for other employees (hey, why does so-and-so always get to come at 11?) and bred resentment if not explained, and it can be disruptive to a lead if an owner tells an employee to take the day off or tell them they don't have to make up work afterhours... because they may actually have to and their lead needs them to. My opinion is you don't give special treatment, you showcase it in raises and reviews, and you make the reasons explicit, but be very careful of outward facing special treatment in case it could be mistaken for something else. Inward special treatment can also be bad if discovered (hey, why are Josh and Adam getting royalties on PoE and we aren't? Even if "understood," finding this out can be bad for morale - my opinion is you spread the wealth).

Thank you Chris, I am really surprised to hear Feargus threatened Josh and Adam with firing. Both seem so instrumental to Pillars I am not sure who Feargus could have passed it off to.

Feargus seems to have unintentionally (or intentionally) created an atmosphere of panic in the backdrop of Obsidian's work environment, whether that be the threat of de-ownering, firing, owners crippling a design feature, burning bridges with publishers, or monthly financial crises. While those occurrence may not happen every day, it still lingers in the background. It just sounds exhausting after a while.

 

[Infinitron]

The story about Feargus threatening to fire Josh and Adam is also not new btw: http://www.rpgcodex.net/forums/inde...ing-production-of-pillars-of-eternity.118952/

Over lunch at the Cheesecake Factory, one of Urquhart’s favorite haunts, Brennecke and Sawyer explained that trying to release the game in November would be a disaster. The team needed more time.

Yes, they were out of Kickstarter money and would now have to dip into Obsidian’s own funds, but for a game like Pillars of Eternity—Obsidian’s most important game to date—the extra investment felt necessary. Urquhart argued against it, but Brennecke and Sawyer were persistent. In their minds, the choice was already made.

“Feargus sat Josh and me down,” Brennecke said. “He said, ‘If this game does not come out in March, you guys are both gone after this project.’” Recalling the pressure, Brennecke could only laugh. “OK, we’ll get it done.”