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RPG Codex Interview: Chris Avellone on Pillars Cut Content, Game Development Hierarchies and More

Infinitron

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Codex Year of the Donut Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
The story about Feargus threatening to fire Josh and Adam is also not new btw: http://www.rpgcodex.net/forums/inde...ing-production-of-pillars-of-eternity.118952/

Over lunch at the Cheesecake Factory, one of Urquhart’s favorite haunts, Brennecke and Sawyer explained that trying to release the game in November would be a disaster. The team needed more time.

Yes, they were out of Kickstarter money and would now have to dip into Obsidian’s own funds, but for a game like Pillars of Eternity—Obsidian’s most important game to date—the extra investment felt necessary. Urquhart argued against it, but Brennecke and Sawyer were persistent. In their minds, the choice was already made.

“Feargus sat Josh and me down,” Brennecke said. “He said, ‘If this game does not come out in March, you guys are both gone after this project.’” Recalling the pressure, Brennecke could only laugh. “OK, we’ll get it done.”
 

IHaveHugeNick

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So I think it'd be going too far to reach the conclusion that Obsidian == shitty programmers. I lean more towards the idea of "Obsidian == mismanaged writing and design, fairly strong technical backbone".

"fairly strong technical backbone", which is why every single obsidian game to date has been a technical trainwreck :lol:

Except, nope. Everything they released after (and including) Dungeon Siege 3 has been reasonably polished and mostly trouble free. The whole "Bugsidian" thing is an outdated meme.
 

Quillon

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What, MCA is married? That reduces my list of middle-aged unmarried men worth looking up to to 0. Guess I should just kill myself.

KpuOoIhX_400x400.jpg
 
Unwanted

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So I think it'd be going too far to reach the conclusion that Obsidian == shitty programmers. I lean more towards the idea of "Obsidian == mismanaged writing and design, fairly strong technical backbone".

"fairly strong technical backbone", which is why every single obsidian game to date has been a technical trainwreck :lol:

Except, nope. Everything they released after (and including) Dungeon Siege 3 has been reasonably polished and mostly trouble free. The whole "Bugsidian" thing is an outdated meme.
3.05
reloading my souldbounds
xqhZ2vt.png

summons dont disappear, disfigured hwrd drwp 3d models fly through the space, abilities are bugged still like bloody slaughter
 

Durandal

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My team has the sexiest and deadliest waifus you can recruit.
Steam forum responses:

That's bit rich in the context of the current context seeing as it's Chris Avellone that was almost always the primary reason why Obsidian games have been relased in buggy state.

Take KotOR2 for example. We know Feargus screwed up over the contract becasue he has openly admitted this. He agreed a 3 month delay on release with Lucas Arts on a handshake rather than get it written as an amendment to the contract. So when Lucas Arts were taken over in the middle of it the new owners refused to abide by the agreement and told Feargus they would impose all sanctions specified in the original contract if KotOR2 was late. Feargus was forced to release regardless of the condition of the game becasue of that.

That's why the game's ending etc was screwed up somewhat. They didn't have time to finish it.

But when you look deeper the reason why they got into this situation in the first place was becasue of Chris Avellone's story which was too ambitious and complicated to deliver with the time and resources available.

Fast forward to PoE1 and we get exactly the same story. Avellone had written Durance and Grieving Mother such that it was obvious to everybody else it was impossible to deliver on them. That's what the row was about and why, it seems probable, Feargus' patience with Avellone came finally to an end and Avellone decided to leave rather than take what was effectively a big demotion. Avellone's role in this is also why PoE1 had issues at launch. They had, yet again, to scramble to patch up the mess Avellone had put them in with his over-ambitious undeliverable scripts.

Or so seems probable. We shall see with the release of Deadfire. If the game runs in good condition on Tuesday that will go a long way to confirming this thesis. It may also be the case that the Deafire narrative turns out to be less than stellar as a result of Avellone's absense in which case we will get to appreciate the depth of the trajedy of this sorry affair. We shall soon see.

But as for the rest of this stuff from Avellone, I am not buying this "litlte creative guy in the trenches crushed and mistreated by evil incompetent senior management" BS for a single moment. Chris Avellone was effectively Creative Director and an owner at Obsidian. He was a big swinging♥♥♥♥♥♥in the studio. In many respects he WAS Obsidian.

Feargus and the other owners did not fire Avellone, they "de-ownered" him. Which means basically he was no longer on the board but he still had his job if he wanted it. The obvious most likely interpotration of this (considering the length of time thay had all worked together etc) was that Feargus dispite this and Chis's immense talent as a writer had finally decided enough was enough, probably very reluctantly, and that Avellone had become so disruptive that his level of inluence in the company had to be significantly curtailed.

Avellone it seems was not prepared to take such a demotion, nor was he prepared to work through negotiations towards a reasonable severance package acceptable to both sides. Rather it seems he just left the room and slammed the door on his way out.

So her we see Avellone using highly selective and misleading language to try to paint Feargus as the devil incarnate without technically lying (probably).

Let's unpick this:

MCA:

Financial Matters and Ethics: I also don’t know where the training for handling and responsibility for finances came from, but we didn’t see eye to eye on that, either, as I've said. It went beyond the transparency in finances - the biggest shock came when the matter arose about paying back employees (not the owners, but our employees) who had given up their paychecks to keep Obsidian from going bankrupt. When we did start getting money in the bank again after this bleak period, however, the company's spending began accelerating again. This made me uncomfortable, so at that time where our finances became healthy again, I brought up that since we had the means to do so, we should pay back the employees who gave up their paychecks to keep us going.

My comment was met with silence by all the owners.

I repeated the concern, but when I brought it up again, Feargus simply said, "we never promised we'd pay the employees back," as if that excused things - but paying the employees back didn’t seem like a technicality to me, this was the right thing to do.

He then said he wanted the matter dropped.

Fortunately, another owner did finally admit he agreed with me some time later (mostly because one of the unpaid employees confronted the owner on what was going on with it), he was someone Feargus would listen to, and when he brought it up (this time he asked for my support, even though he had been silent before), we were able to push Feargus into establishing a payback plan and get restitution for the employees who sacrificed for us - and this was well before any owner paychecks resumed (by this point, the owners were resolved to not getting paid back, so it wasn't a huge shift).

Overall, it seemed a shameful way to treat our employees who had sacrificed for us, and I wasn’t happy we even had to discuss compensating them – it didn’t seem to be something we should discuss, we should simply do it because it was the right thing to do.

So the scenario is that everyone, employee and owner alike, forcoes their pay for a time in order to save the company and presumably finish the current project to do so. Avellone says when money started to flow back as a result "spending began tro accelerate again" and the poor emplyeees were not given their back pay (and neither were the owners).

Spending on what, exactly? Conveniently Avellone does not tell us. Becasue it doesn't necessarily help him paint Feargus as the Devil Incarnate perhaps.

Perhaps the money was being spent on the next game development project (by Avellone's owen admission here is certainly didn't go into the owners pockets)?

Generally speaking the bigger the budget for a game then better it may turn out to be, the better it turns out to be the more likely it will get a very positive recenption by both public and critics alike, and the better both critical and public reception is the more likely the game is to become a big hit.

If a game is a big hit, becasue the develpoment costs are a fixed quanltity paid up front, the earnings from the game sky rocket. Feargus may well have taken the view that it was in the best interests of the future propserity and seecurity of everyone at the company, employee and owner alike to, to put the money into the next game rather than use it for backpay.

Avellone conveniently ignores this point. Nor does he enlighten us on what the profit share/bonus/pay review procedures are at Obsidian so we don't know what the average dev in the trenches stood to gain financially from the company having a big hit game.

But, whether you think Feargus was right or wrong, you cannot paint him as the Spawn of Satan for believing it was in everyones best intersts to put all resources available into the current game.

But again Avellone dissembles: he says Fearegus said "We didn't promise to pay them back". I'm sure Feargus did say that at one point in the discussion but I am absolutely sure tha's not all Feargus said, and it is by deliberately leaving out the rest that Avellone seeks to slander Feargus.

This is called "quote mining" and is a disreputable journalistic technique used to twist truth and blacken reputations. It is a favourite technique of internet trolls.

Then we come to the part about "mostly because one of the unpaid employees confronted the owner on what was going on with it". Again we see Avellone trying to twist the narrative by being highly selective with the information he deigns to divulge.

What did this employee confront Feargus about? Was it the principle of getting their back pay? Or was it a specific hardship directly casued by the pay freeze? Something like a bank threatebning to foprclose hgis moprtgage? His kids getting threatened witrh expulsionb from college for non-payment of fees? His mother needing an operation he had to pay for?

Conveniently Avellone does not tell us becasue he obviously wants to put his own spin on the decisions Feargus made to try to blacken his reputation. Why is this important?

Becasue if Feargus was confronted with a genuine case of hardship caused by the pay freeze and realised he had to get this dude his back pay he would have realised he would have to give everybody else their back pay as well or it would not only be seen as totally unfair but would actually be totally unfair.

So: meet Feargus, the Devil Incarnate. Yeah, right.

But what truly sickens me about Avellone's supposed oh-so-heartfelt sticking up for the little guy in the trenches and his carefully crafted half-truths, omissions and spins is that all this is so obviously designed to try to torpedo the Deadfire release, and who is that going to hurt the most?

Yeah, that's right Avellone. The little guy in the trenches. Where the ♥♥♥♥ are you at. man?
 

IHaveHugeNick

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So I think it'd be going too far to reach the conclusion that Obsidian == shitty programmers. I lean more towards the idea of "Obsidian == mismanaged writing and design, fairly strong technical backbone".

"fairly strong technical backbone", which is why every single obsidian game to date has been a technical trainwreck :lol:

Except, nope. Everything they released after (and including) Dungeon Siege 3 has been reasonably polished and mostly trouble free. The whole "Bugsidian" thing is an outdated meme.
3.05
reloading my souldbounds
xqhZ2vt.png

My heart weeps for all the despair and trauma caused to you by irrelevant animation bug that has no impact on anything whatsoever.
 
Unwanted

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So I think it'd be going too far to reach the conclusion that Obsidian == shitty programmers. I lean more towards the idea of "Obsidian == mismanaged writing and design, fairly strong technical backbone".

"fairly strong technical backbone", which is why every single obsidian game to date has been a technical trainwreck :lol:

Except, nope. Everything they released after (and including) Dungeon Siege 3 has been reasonably polished and mostly trouble free. The whole "Bugsidian" thing is an outdated meme.
3.05
reloading my souldbounds

My heart weeps for all the despair and trauma caused to you by irrelevant animation bug that has no impact on anything whatsoever.
Feargus' cum is leaking through your nostrils, son. Play more POE1.0
 

Darth Roxor

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So I think it'd be going too far to reach the conclusion that Obsidian == shitty programmers. I lean more towards the idea of "Obsidian == mismanaged writing and design, fairly strong technical backbone".

"fairly strong technical backbone", which is why every single obsidian game to date has been a technical trainwreck :lol:

Except, nope. Everything they released after (and including) Dungeon Siege 3 has been reasonably polished and mostly trouble free. The whole "Bugsidian" thing is an outdated meme.

says you

meanwhile i remember being stuck for a week in raedric's hold because a gamebreaking bug made it impossible to leave

i finally managed to break out using the console cuz otherwise i'd be waiting a month or something for a patch to fix it
 

The Bishop

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summons dont disappear, disfigured hwrd drwp 3d models fly through the space, abilities are bugged still like bloody slaughter
As far as hilarious bugs go, if you queue Wizard's Martial Power after Spirit Lance your char will proceed to... stab himself with the lance.

In general, and this is an observation I already made before, Obsidian bugs have this quality of somehow being much more in your face than usual. The total number of bugs might be not even that high (compared to industry standard), but whenever you encounter a problem it's often so blatant you feel puzzled as to how this could possibly be overlooked. Perhaps an indication of broken process too.
 

IHaveHugeNick

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So I think it'd be going too far to reach the conclusion that Obsidian == shitty programmers. I lean more towards the idea of "Obsidian == mismanaged writing and design, fairly strong technical backbone".

"fairly strong technical backbone", which is why every single obsidian game to date has been a technical trainwreck :lol:

Except, nope. Everything they released after (and including) Dungeon Siege 3 has been reasonably polished and mostly trouble free. The whole "Bugsidian" thing is an outdated meme.

says you

meanwhile i remember being stuck for a week in raedric's hold because a gamebreaking bug made it impossible to leave

i finally managed to break out using the console cuz otherwise i'd be waiting a month or something for a patch to fix it

Took you a week to figure out you can just use a console?

:excellent:
 
Vatnik
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it's often so blatant you feel puzzled as to how this could possibly be overlooked
As has been said before, bugs are always the sign of "not enough time to fix anything". No bugs are overlooked, QA usually finds 99% of existing bugs. The decision to ship with bugs is made in all consciousness. Which, again, points to management problems.

Bugs are the one thing I wouldn't attribute to programmers, however strange it may sound.
 

Roguey

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says you

meanwhile i remember being stuck for a week in raedric's hold because a gamebreaking bug made it impossible to leave

i finally managed to break out using the console cuz otherwise i'd be waiting a month or something for a patch to fix it
Most ambitious quest in the game, not on the critical path. :M
 

Infinitron

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Codex Year of the Donut Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
Bugs are the one thing I wouldn't attribute to programmers, however strange it may sound.

Yes, when I say "programming" I'm not thinking just about bugs but about overall scope of features and functionality successfully delivered in the game (where "successfully" implies a certain degree of polish, but not necessarily 100% perfection)

For example, Deadfire has NPC schedules now which even Larian never got around to doing.
 
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Grab the Codex by the pussy
I love Vince's game, setting, characters, etc. and have been talking with him about it (I reviewed everything to date except the monks and talked to him about it). I haven't been able to get back to him as quickly as I'd like because it's a writing deadline week.

Unrelated to the design elements, I also think the cover for the game he proposed is awesome, it looks super cool and moody.

I haven't played Underrail, but it's on the list. That's going to be a common answer about games, unfortunately. I do try to make it up by playing the builds of games that haven't come out yet, and doing it across multiple publishers.
:excellent:
 

Goral

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While Darren at least cares about games on some level, Jones doesn’t at all and has mastered the art of saying “no” to just about everything – he’d make a great technical director at a company that doesn’t make games, because he could find a way to say “no” to everything and dismiss it out of hand.
Chris Avellone = alpha male
 

IHaveHugeNick

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it's often so blatant you feel puzzled as to how this could possibly be overlooked
As has been said before, bugs are always the sign of "not enough time to fix anything". No bugs are overlooked, QA usually finds 99% of existing bugs..

Pretty sure in the early days they just had a horrible bug tracking system that consisted of a notebook and a pencil kept in janitor's office or something equally sophisticated. Feargus has come out saying as much and that they've changed things around following AP fiasco.
 

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