RPG Codex Interview: Chris Avellone on Pillars Cut Content, Game Development Hierarchies and More

[Bohr]

Timing in the sense that Avellone's moment to act may have been the moment Feargus de-ownered him.

Do you really think a person in a situation such as Chris' one, would be in position to launch a complicated endeavour requiring huge chunks of his of attention and money?

I believe he said as much, when he stated that he has more money in his bank account to pay legal fees than Obsidian or Feargus does. Plus, he seemed genuinely interested in what steps he could take when Bester prepared an IRS complaint. I forget the page number where he asked.

Wasn't he saying that he is in that position now, after 3 years of doing contracts all over the place, but not when he left Obsidian and was in a vulnerable position at that time?

 

[Maculo]

Timing in the sense that Avellone's moment to act may have been the moment Feargus de-ownered him.

Do you really think a person in a situation such as Chris' one, would be in position to launch a complicated endeavour requiring huge chunks of his of attention and money?

I believe he said as much, when he stated that he has more money in his bank account to pay legal fees than Obsidian or Feargus does. Plus, he seemed genuinely interested in what steps he could take when Bester prepared an IRS complaint. I forget the page number where he asked.

Wasn't he saying that he is in that position now, after 3 years of doing contracts all over the place, but not when he left Obsidian and was in a vulnerable position at that time?

When I originally read deepfire's post, I did not see the brackets about Chris' position at the time of the de-ownering (an edit?). That's kind of the frustrating part about it all. Avellone may be both interested and capable of pursing a claim now, but the time to have acted may have been in in 2015.

 

[Prime Junta]

Timing in the sense that Avellone's moment to act may have been the moment Feargus de-ownered him.

Do you really think a person in a situation such as Chris' one, would be in position to launch a complicated endeavour requiring huge chunks of his of attention and money?

I believe he said as much, when he stated that he has more money in his bank account to pay legal fees than Obsidian or Feargus does. Plus, he seemed genuinely interested in what steps he could take when Bester prepared an IRS complaint. I forget the page number where he asked.

Wasn't he saying that he is in that position now, after 3 years of doing contracts all over the place, but not when he left Obsidian and was in a vulnerable position at that time?

When I originally read deepfire's post, I did not see the brackets about Chris' position at the time of the de-ownering (an edit?). That's kind of the frustrating part about it all. Avellone may be both interested and capable of pursing a claim now, but the time to have acted may have been in in 2015.

I'm proceeding from the assumption that he's not interested in pursuing claims, because if he had, he would have drastically weakened his chances with this very thread. From where I'm at it looks like he's more interested in punching Feargus in the nuts repeatedly, and there's no need to pay for a lawyer for that when you can do it yourself.

 

[IHaveHugeNick]

I find it amazing how people keep talking about "de-ownering" as if it's the worst thing ever, while nobody yet has been able to establish what de-ownernig even means.

 

[Maculo]

I'm proceeding from the assumption that he's not interested in pursuing claims, because if he had, he would have drastically weakened his chances with this very thread. From where I'm at it looks like he's more interested in punching Feargus in the nuts repeatedly, and there's no need to pay for a lawyer for that when you can do it yourself.

Now, now I am certain there are attorneys out there that would be more than happy to counsel Mr. Avellone through this dark and difficult time...

Also, perhaps I read too much into Avellone's post, but he seemed genuinely curious about what action he could take.

I find it amazing how people keep talking about "de-ownering" as if it's the worst thing ever, while nobody yet has been able to establish what de-ownernig even means.

I would certainly love to see more details from Avellone, but I believe we can safely establish that de-ownering was not great, especially when it happened on the eve a sizable distribution to owners from PoE.

 

[agris]

I find it amazing how people keep talking about "de-ownering" as if it's the worst thing ever, while nobody yet has been able to establish what de-ownernig even means.

Shall I ask Blaine to draw you a quest compass as well?

 

[Bohr]

I find it amazing how people keep talking about "de-ownering" as if it's the worst thing ever, while nobody yet has been able to establish what de-ownernig even means.

Loss of share of company profits, loss of voting rights at the "owners' meeting" where top-level decisions were made? Plus the demotion/humiliation aspect that went along with that change in status. At least that's what I gathered from his posts.

 

[Ezeekiel]

I like to imagine that Feargus spent all weekend googling images of wolves to send to MCA in retaliation.

 

[Kz3r0]

You two need to get an interrogation room

At Lubijanka.

 

[Maculo]

I find it amazing how people keep talking about "de-ownering" as if it's the worst thing ever, while nobody yet has been able to establish what de-ownernig even means.

Loss of share of company profits, loss of voting rights at the "owners' meeting" where top-level decisions were made? Plus the demotion/humiliation aspect that went along with that change in status. At least that's what I gathered from his posts.

Loss of share of profits on the eve of a payout from PoE too if I recall correctly. Also, in the event there was a forced buyout, I did not get a sense that Avellone made much from the sale.

 

[2house2fly]

I've said it many times, but maybe once more: even though I obviously have no idea about the internal stuff that was going on with NV, I want to point out that while people often say stuff like the above 'Josh cranked up NV in 18 months', John Gonzalez was the Creative Lead on this, right?

He was, and I think he understood the narrative importance of the Fallout series more than anyone else on FNV working on the story arc (ex: it was common in F1 and F2 to have over-the-top mouthpieces (and visual mouthpieces) "antagonists" for a certain faction). That's why I think he made House and Caesar work well - but NCR felt lacking and tacked on (which wasn't John's call, but the problem overall was throughout the game there was no one was like "Tandi" who exemplified the NCR faction on a personal level - the leadership of the faction felt disconnected and distant).

That works thematically for the NCR, to the point that until you complained about it in this post it didn't occur to me that it wasn't intentional

 

[Blaine]

Shall I ask Blaine to draw you a quest compass as well?

*teleports into thread*

I was playing AoD, do what now?

 

[IHaveHugeNick]

[
Loss of share of company profits.

In what way? CEO cannot just take your shares. They're not his to take. That's your property, you own it. Unless something else went down that we're not being told.

He claims that he was pressured later to sign an NDA in exchange for a payout, correct? They don't need to pressure him if he doesn't have any shares in a first place, that makes no sense.

So, being de-ownered doesn't mean he loses his value of the company, so what the fuck does it actually mean? He didn't get to go to owner meetings anymore and they changed their secret handshake?

 

[Maculo]

[
Loss of share of company profits.

In what way? CEO cannot just take your shares. They're not his to take. That's your property, you own it. Unless something else went down that we're not being told.

He claims that he was pressured later to sign an NDA in exchange for a payout, correct? They don't need to pressure him if he doesn't have any shares in a first place, that makes no sense.

So, being de-ownered doesn't mean he loses his value of the company, so what the fuck does it actually mean? He didn't get to go to owner meetings anymore and they changed their secret handshake?

From the techraptor interview Avellone posted way back on page 167, https://techraptor.net/content/interview-chris-avellone-obsidian-entertainment

Chris Avellone: There were 5 owners. Feargus had the biggest share, Chris Parker and Darren Monahan had the 2nd largest, and Chris Jones and I had a small %. The ownership was not equal. Between the owners, as long as Feargus, Parker, and Monahan agreed, that was usually the end of things (we didn’t often vote on things – sometimes we’d just hear about things that had been decided). We considered them the “production triad.”

TechRaptor: When exactly did financial and managerial issues start becoming an ongoing issue between you and Feargus? Was there a particular moment or meeting, or was it more of a gradual change in perception over the years?

Chris Avellone: About a year before the split, Feargus became someone I reported to directly (aside from the leads on projects I was on that I worked for). When I did report to Feargus, more and more issues came to light about how things were done that were hard to unsee – and sometimes I didn’t even know about them until after the fact.

I objected to a number of these things because they seemed wrong (they’re at the Codex, but they’re too many to repeat here). Even if my objections weren’t personal, I’m sure that didn’t generate any goodwill, but I did bring up objections because I was genuinely surprised by the answers I was getting (I thought Obsidian’s employee review process had problems, for example, but even that was refuted).

To cite my prior point, although I am still searching for the post where I recall Avellone called the timing of de-ownering suspect.

So Nick, I’m starting to get a bit suspicious, but I’ll answer your questions, because you are arguing for Obsidian, and not the game itself. Bear with me, though.

The only other thing I have to say is that while you agree the owners will likely have no part in the game’s success, what genuinely bothers me is the fact, they will, absolutely, be able to divert the reward to their own financial success, regardless of what the team did. Let me know (only hypothetically, since the game isn’t released), if you would agree that's fair. I don't. I’d be mad as all hell, just as I thought it was unfair the owners got the majority of Pillars 1 royalty profits vs. the people who made the game happen, especially since some of the owners were barely involved in PoE1, but still got most of the money when the royalties rolled in.

- Signed, ihaveatinynick

 

[Bohr]

[
Loss of share of company profits.

In what way? CEO cannot just take your shares. They're not his to take. That's your property, you own it. Unless something else went down that we're not being told.

He claims that he was pressured later to sign an NDA in exchange for a payout, correct? They don't need to pressure him if he doesn't have any shares in a first place, that makes no sense.

So, being de-ownered doesn't mean he loses his value of the company, so what the fuck does it actually mean? He didn't get to go to owner meetings anymore and they changed their secret handshake?

True, we don't have all the details. But he told us that the shares hadn't been revalued since the company was first formed and so were well below their current value, and his requests for the revaluation process outlined in their company procedures to take place were refused. Assume there was a process where majority shareholders could buy out minority shareholders for their given value, in this case for probably very little. And he no longer received royalties, just as PoE meant they could finally pay some out to owners.

But yes, would like to see more info on this - I guess the interviews that he's doing will go into this a bit more, or at least they should.

 

[Prime Junta]

[
Loss of share of company profits.

In what way? CEO cannot just take your shares. They're not his to take. That's your property, you own it. Unless something else went down that we're not being told.

He claims that he was pressured later to sign an NDA in exchange for a payout, correct? They don't need to pressure him if he doesn't have any shares in a first place, that makes no sense.

So, being de-ownered doesn't mean he loses his value of the company, so what the fuck does it actually mean? He didn't get to go to owner meetings anymore and they changed their secret handshake?

I’m sure Chris can clarify this, but yeah I think it’s been established that he lost his shares. And yes that can happen if the shareholder agreement is grossly unfair. For example, the shares could have originally been sold for $100k, financed by an i.o.u to the seller for the same amount, and a SHA which allows the majority owner to buy them back at the same price, simultaneously voiding the i.o.u.

I’ve been a party to several arrangements like this, except the buyback option is time limited and contingent on other factors. Point is, it can def. happen.

 

[Crispy]

Junta, how many posts do you have in this thread? 150? 200?

Go away, please.

 

[agris]

Shall I ask Blaine to draw you a quest compass as well?

*teleports into thread*

I was playing AoD, do what now?

I see what you did there!

Anyway, IHaveHugeNick is having trouble grasping the concept of de-ownering. You're well equipped to provide the necessary infographic, thus the summons!

 

[Rivmusique]

25 minutes until PoE2 Deadfire, who's excited?

 

[Blaine]

Junta, how many posts do you have in this thread? 150? 200?

Go away, please.

The real question is how many gallons of water he's had to consume to keep his saliva glands working overtime servicing MCA's virtual wee willie winkie.

Come to think of it, for a communist, he sure seems to know an awful lot about capitalism-centric financial matters....

Anyway, IHaveHugeNick is having trouble grasping the concept of de-ownering. You're well equipped to provide the necessary infographic, thus the summons!

The energy and the humor have vanished from this place, and my muse with them. Without inspiration there's nothing I can do.

 

[Prime Junta]

Junta, how many posts do you have in this thread? 150? 200?

Go away, please.

Go fuck yourself Crispy, nobody cares what you think.

 

[deepfire]

Anyway, IHaveHugeNick is having trouble grasping the concept of de-ownering. You're well equipped to provide the necessary infographic, thus the summons!

The energy and the humor have vanished from this place, and my muse with them. Without inspiration there's nothing I can do.

How convenient, isn't it?

 

[2house2fly]

I think Feargus Urquhart is just an out-of-his-depth schmoe who makes mistakes and struggles to maintain relationships under stress, not a narcissistic supervillain.

Dude.

Putting his family on the payroll, trying to weasel out of paying back employees who agreed to skip paychecks because the company was going under, and summarily de-ownerising a founder goes way, way beyond schmoe. At least where I'm from.

There's a much worse word for people like him where I'm from: Capitalist.

 

[Crispy]

Blaine, how many posts do you have in this thread? 1500? 2000?

Go away, please.

 

[ERYFKRAD]

I'm a real national socialist and don't feel oppressed on the Codex.

Oh yeah? See what happens if Realms Beyond doesn't deliver.

Proof again that the only group on the Codex that is oppressed are developers of disappointing games!

Where's the Shit Games Liberation Front when you need it?

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