RPG Codex Interview: Chris Avellone on Pillars Cut Content, Game Development Hierarchies and More

[DosBuster]

Then you aren't paying enough attention.

Or you're just too sensitive, and think that addressing racial issues is "racist" by definition.

Some people can and do find "bigotry" anywhere they look for it. There's no reasoning with them.

The giveaway is usually where they choose not to find bigotry. Pay enough attention and it's easy to see the bias.

Not saying it offends me, it doesn't. But it's there. Let's not turn this thread into a racism debate though please.

 

[FreeKaner]

Two facts. Firstly, monomyth stories with red team and blue team suck. Secondly if you are making choices in a game based on how much "content" you can squeeze out in terms of pure time spent instead of taking part in its narrative you shouldn't be playing RPGs and should reevaluate worth of your time in general.

 

[JarlFrank]

Two facts. Firstly, monomyth stories with red team and blue team suck. Secondly if you are making choices in a game based on how much "content" you can squeeze out in terms of pure time spent instead of taking part in its narrative you shouldn't be playing RPGs and should reevaluate worth of your time in general.

If you are wasting too much time posting on a gaming board (like me) you should re-evaluate your life in general.

Pff, the Codex is no mere "gaming board"!

 

[ArchAngel]

Feargus never striked me as a narcissist. He strikes me as a guy who became a CEO on no other merit than somebody had to, well above his competence and skillet. Ad who has to navigate an extremely stressful and volatile business that is constantly evolving and changing every minute of every day.

No, a narcissist would be a person who accuses other owners of being cowards, while at the same time forgetting he was also part of the management and didn't have a spine to stand up to Feargus for 15 years.

A narcissist would be a person who runs his mouth about business ethics, while trying to sabotage the launch of a fan funded game, and disrupt the production of another game made by people he claims to respect, all so he can stick it up to Feargus.

A narcissist would be a person who tries to pull Fenstermaker into his crusade against Obsidian, without consideration that Eric might not want to burn any bridges there.

We already have a name for him too - Captain Stretch Goal. His superpowers are self-fellatio, unlimited butthurt and public meltdowns.

Then it is a good thing that he has your asshole to give him stress relief at end of a day of "navigating an extremely stressful and volatile business"

 

[The_Time_Master]

Yes, blood bread is as stupid and impossible as it sounds.

http://www.eataku.com/post/30517512676/finnish-blood-bread

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blood_as_food

https://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=sv&u=https://sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paltbr%C3%B6d&prev=search

/edit: shitty fucking translation, Google. WTF?

 

[MajorMace]

The thing with Avellone calling them out for their lack of balls is that he is proven right as long as not a single one of them adresses this, here or elsewhere.

If they do, they can't deny his allegations.

Win-win.

 

[FreeKaner]

If you are wasting too much time posting on a gaming board (like me) you should re-evaluate your life in general.

There is a difference between spending time on a hobby and obsessively maximising how many drips you can drain from "content".

 

[Darth Roxor]

Secondly if you are making choices in a game based on how much "content" you can squeeze out in terms of pure time spent instead of taking part in its narrative you shouldn't be playing RPGs and should reevaluate worth of your time in general.

To quote a wise man and philosopher,

I don't give a slightest fuck about make-believe "i-am-a-paladin-so-i-will-only-do-paladinlike-things" bullshit, because there is only my computer and me, and neither of us cares.

 

[DosBuster]

Feargus never striked me as a narcissist. He strikes me as a guy who became a CEO on no other merit than somebody had to, well above his competence and skillet. Ad who has to navigate an extremely stressful and volatile business that is constantly evolving and changing every minute of every day.

No, a narcissist would be a person who accuses other owners of being cowards, while at the same time forgetting he was also part of the management and didn't have a spine to stand up to Feargus for 15 years.

A narcissist would be a person who runs his mouth about business ethics, while trying to sabotage the launch of a fan funded game, and disrupt the production of another game made by people he claims to respect, all so he can stick it up to Feargus.

A narcissist would be a person who tries to pull Fenstermaker into his crusade against Obsidian, without consideration that Eric might not want to burn any bridges there.

We already have a name for him too - Captain Stretch Goal. His superpowers are self-fellatio, unlimited butthurt and public meltdowns.

Is it really still narcissism when there's a 205 page thread dedicated to appreciating Chris?

 

[IHaveHugeNick]

Feargus never striked me as a narcissist. He strikes me as a guy who became a CEO on no other merit than somebody had to, well above his competence and skillet. Ad who has to navigate an extremely stressful and volatile business that is constantly evolving and changing every minute of every day.

Interesting sympathy for the devil there. So what gave you this impression of Gus?

Have you actually heard Feargus talk? Poor guy wouldn't sell you a pen even if that pen had the power to grant the owner endless youth and immortality. Maybe he gets more prepared for presentations than he does for interviews. But I can't imagine him giving a pitch to a publisher, he's such an awful public speaker he probably has people rolling their eyes in most of the pitches.

Is it really still narcissism when there's a 205 page thread dedicated to appreciating Chris?

You can appreciate his work and creative talents while admitting that he is currently acting like a bit of a dick. Those two things aren't mutually exclusive.

 

[JarlFrank]

If you are wasting too much time posting on a gaming board (like me) you should re-evaluate your life in general.

There is a difference between spending time on a hobby and obsessively maximising how many drips you can drain from "content".

There's also the reasonable expectation of receiving a rewarding experience from the game, no matter which path you take. If one path feels unfinished, it will not feel as rewarding as the others, since something will seem to be "missing".

And yes, fleshing out the story and giving cool lore tidbits to the player is reward enough.

 

[santino27]

FWIW, those West Coast-based Kickstarted RPGs seem to be increasingly outsourcing art, and then there's inXile opening a studio in Louisiana for Bard's Tale IV.

CA is expensive, and the workforce correspondingly so.

 

[santino27]

I'm a real national socialist and don't feel oppressed on the Codex.

The irrationalist bulshit in other threads was strike two. With this one you are out. You just a lost a costumer for your future game, asshole.

What was strike one?

More importantly, what costume would he have worn for your future game?

 

[Israfael]

If one path feels unfinished, it will not feel as rewarding as the others, since something will seem to be "missing".

Sounds strangely like story should also be balanced (tm) (C)

 

[FreeKaner]

To quote a wise man and philosopher,

I don't give a slightest fuck about make-believe "i-am-a-paladin-so-i-will-only-do-paladinlike-things" bullshit, because there is only my computer and me, and neither of us cares.

DND paladin archetype sucks dick anyhow.

 

[Fairfax]

That sums it up. The story, narrative choices and exploration of the game world should be reward enough. Obviously that's an extreme and I'm not saying there shouldn't be items and powers gained through, but often progression mechanics like that in games are used as a crutch to keep players interested in a basically uninteresting narrative. In a PNP RPG you can have a situation where getting just a +1 weapon can be a big deal, because you are so wrapped up in the story of the world and the various characters, your own included, that such a small reward can have a real gravity to it.

This is the Planescape vision document where the term "ego masturbation" was used. I think it's particularly interesting because Planescape: Torment has never struck me as a power fantasy, ego masturbation story. Just the opposite really, since the Nameless One character feels quite vulnerable in the face of his problems, and is often at a loss to understand the world around him. I mean, the very basis of the story is about TNO's ego being effaced. You are hardly a "hero worshipped by the masses," and the various monetary and material rewards throughout the game are hardly the stuff that captured people's attention (the items were interesting but only because they all had a unique narrative quality to them). I don't know if framing the story as a trite power fantasy was an attempt to sell the idea of the game to upper management, or if it really was written with this intention. ("emotional pornography" is another similar term, that shows up in the Van Buren design document).

I'm not sure about the PS:T vision document in particular, but I think Chris uses "ego stroke" in the more general sense of "all the content in the game revolves around the player" (not necessarily in a positive way).

MCA has explained a few times that the language in the vision document was meant for Interplay's upper management.

"Ego masturbation" = ego stroking that he uses in companion design and reactivity:

- The companion needs to ego-stroke the player in a variety of ways. Sometimes this can be romance, sometimes this can be simply reactivity (either brief barks or conversations about the player’s actions), or any of a variety of methods. Ultimately, however, any companion that simply sits around bitching, complaining, and haranguing the player isn’t someone you want to drag into the nearest dungeon to help clear it out… you may simply want to throw them in the dungeon and lock the door.

As far as these reward systems go, there are a number of things we introduce in dialogue. One is alignment-based responses, trying to give at least three responses per node that have meaning rather than a single railroad response - and even if they link back to the same thread, try to make each divergence have different repercussions for alignment, reputation, and potentially companion influence. Skill and stat-based responses really ego-stroke a player who specialized in certain skills, even if it's just Lore and Spellcraft, and you can really have a lot of fun with Taunt and Perform-based responses in the right circumstances.

Your character can do things he can't do in the real world that makes you feel cool. Nobody backtalks to you, women (or men) love you, and everything you do is something to be feared, respected, or reviled. This is called ego-stroking, and is demonstrated thusly:

It's more extreme in PS:T because the whole thing revolves around the PC. Like most of the game's design pillars, it's an approach that came from MCA's desire to invert or avoid tropes he hated in the genre. He felt most RPGs didn't make players care about dialogue or what was going on, and he was tired of clichés like saving a kingdom or a princess, so he made everything about the player:

On my long list of hates about RPGs, one of them was, I always felt it was an unnecessary chore to make you care about a world when in fact what most players care about is their own personal experience. So in Planescape, we [decided], “We’re just going to make everything about you. This is your journey, the planes aren’t going to explode—it’s all about your personal journey, and about everything that took place that you did beforehand that’s caused this situation.” And that’s how we wanted to keep it. You want to have a totally selfish adventure? I’m right there with you. That’s fantastic. I don’t want you to save a nation or go rescue the princess or kill the evil wizard, I want you to save yourself, and you figure out how to do it. It’s all about you, so enjoy it. Because that’s the kind of game that I want to play.

 

[toro]

PS I recall Scott mentioning that he replaced Feargus as a playtester at Interplay on Castles 2, so Feargus wasn't always a business guy. At some point he got paid to test games. Just think about that and realize that you should never attribute to malice what can satisfactorily be explained away by...anything that could give you more peace of mind. Peter Principle is a bitch.

All the owners, except Avellone, started their careers in QA.

• Urquhart went into production and then studio management.
• Parker went into production.
  
• Monahan went into programming and then production.
• Jones went into programming.

All these transitions happened ~20 years ago. We all start somewhere.

This explains everything. Obsidian muss weg!!!

 

[toro]

Finding people willing to volunteer for an RPG community site is always difficult

It sure seemed a lot easier 3-4 years ago, when we had so many volunteers that there was fights over the order in which to publish reviews, articles and the likes... we used to have more quality content in a month than we had this entire year.

Gotta ask yourself what happened since.

Could you simply say it?

 

[Fairfax]

ll the owners, except Avellone, started their careers in QA.

• Urquhart went into production and then studio management.
• Parker went into production.
  
• Monahan went into programming and then production.
• Jones went into programming.

All these transitions happened ~20 years ago. We all start somewhere.

You quoted the wrong post. I'm not the one who said that.

 

[Prime Junta]

Spoiler

Yes, blood bread is as stupid and impossible as it sounds.

Don't disrespect my culture.

 

[Joined on the 4th of July]

I'm a real national socialist and don't feel oppressed on the Codex.

Oh yeah? See what happens if Realms Beyond doesn't deliver.

Proof again that the only group on the Codex that is oppressed are developers of disappointing games!

Where's the Shit Games Liberation Front when you need it?

Spoiler

It was supposed to be a fairly straigh-forward copy of the original. I don't know what happened.

 

[The Great ThunThun*]

Also, games are ego stroking. RPGs more so. News at 11. Of course, they are. Games allow for vicarious success at the expense of time. Actually, it's not that different from drug addiction. It is a *bad* thing and we all still do it. Just like Coffee. The question is can it be * well-done*. If anything, then the *how* of that question, that is the codex's raison d'etre.

 

[Jedi Master Radek]

In the IGN interview I linked earlier, at some point Feargus was talking about contracts and dealing with publishers and said "do as I say, not as I do". These quotes from the book seem to be examples of that.

When I was interviewing Feargus it was after he had given a speech about good management practices like not being late. He came 15 minutes late for the interview and said something like "I should listen to my own advices more"

But he seemed like a genuinely nice person.

Just wanted to quickly jump in and apologize for some disparaging remarks i made in the past about you mr. Chris Avellone
I dont think you saw any of those, but regardless if you did or not i feel i should say this.

For several recent years ive been running across or reading your various interviews in which you spoke only the best about game design and storytelling, narrative gameplay or any other fundamental RPG system or mechanic, yet... Obsidian kept producing uninspired and broken bug ridden failures, drowning somewhere in a miasma of mediocre lousy attempts to reach the fabled mass market and retain some semblance of an RPG genre, none of it not even close to any of those ideals you were so easily pulling out of a hat... just talking about it (or so i thought).
The searing bitterness i feel when thinking about it has been going for some time, since way back when i was dipped for the first time, playing Fallout 2, the first great RPG game i ever played. I still consider that as one of the best experiences i had in my existence, together with PST of course. Something truly worthy. Which got me to join old BiS interplay boards to seek where that seed will grow. Just in time to see the fall and then follow through all the long years of great decline.

So, considering i thought you were one of the owners, i blamed you for failures of Obsidian, as a part of recent spate of decline of RPGs. Which not even kickstarter seemed to change. You were also named or portrayed as leading developer in so many of those Obsidian games so that fooled me too. Reading those articles and interviews made it worse. I thought you were just fantasizing for a quick and easy clickbait hype, or outright hallucinating, while your studio kept producing ... something that seemed to have some disparate high quality parts that could never come together, as if someone was consciously deciding to fuck it all up. In greed for more money and then failing to get either. Now its clear who that actually was. Its not a surprise as i have experienced plenty of those "managers" throughout my life. And seen/figured out many more in this game business.

So i apologize for any harsh words i wrote. I was completely wrong, fooled by my bitterness and lack of actual facts. If you didnt see any of those posts its all for the better.
Considering the actual situation you were in.


I think its great what you are doing now. Its great you have a safe net and that you are financially cowered, as well as current and future (im sure) prospects for employment. At least that is not the same as in the ages of decline anymore. Although not for many. But you being who you are, one of the most accomplished and known RPG developers, will lend weight to your words and experiences not many ordinary developers enjoy.
(ive just noticed the case of poor Monty... man, after all the years he was involved in attempts to resurrect some part of PST, then somehow getting to work on Torment no less, and then all that. But his case is just one of many, many)

In that sense i hope you succeed in all your aims, shoving a boot up those parasites asses but also, improving the general environment for your former colleagues at Obsidian and devs in the whole business.
Every little bit helps. Every ray of Truth scuttles the decline a bit more. And even if it cannot be all great and dandy, it can be much better.

YES! Welcome back! From all the completely insane, angry shitposters you were always my favorite!

 

[Maculo]

I think Feargus Urquhart is just an out-of-his-depth schmoe who makes mistakes and struggles to maintain relationships under stress, not a narcissistic supervillain.

Dude.

Putting his family on the payroll, trying to weasel out of paying back employees who agreed to skip paychecks because the company was going under, and summarily de-ownerising a founder goes way, way beyond schmoe. At least where I'm from.

The unfortunate part in all this may be Chris Avellone's timing. Timing in the sense that Avellone's moment to act may have been when Feargus de-ownered him. For example, the party that brings a lawsuit must have adequate relevance or standing to the claim in some form or another. Standing in a shareholder dispute may require that one be a current shareholder, which Avellone is no longer. The significance is that many, if not all, states provide minority shareholders (e.g., Avellone) with remedies should the controlling shareholder (e.g., Feargus) either grossly mismanages the company or attempts to force an unfair stock sale onto the minority shareholder. This is referred to as "minority oppression" in some states, but I am not sure what standard California follows. Even if California has an equivalent claim, requisite standing to bring suit may require that the plaintiff is a current shareholder, which Avellone is not. I would really love to know a California attorney's take on this.

Another consideration is that from what Chris Avellone told us, Feargus effectively had control of the company in the form of either a super majority of votes from his shares alone or the backing of a super majority. A super majority in a small, closely held private company grants a lot of power and discretion, provided there is no conflict with state law and corporate documents. Furthermore, I am willing to bet that even in California closely-held private companies have a great deal of leeway relative to public companies or even larger private companies.

With respect to hiring family members, we would need to know more to make a sound conclusion, such as salary figures and work quality. For example, compare a situation in which an owner hires his wife and pays her above standard salary for the position, as opposed to an owner that pays his wife below standard salary for the area. To further the example, now imagine that the standard bookkeeper salary is $50,000 in the area, and compare the situation if the wife received $150,000 versus receiving a $30,000 salary to manage the books. One example is potentially cashing in, whereas the other example is the owner using family to cut costs or get a better rate. Another consideration is with respect to the quality of the work. Does the owner's wife actually perform the work in a professional manner, or does she effectively just take space in the office? Depending on the facts, it could be greed or a desperate cost cutting measure, and if the latter, then that is partly Feargus' fault anyway.

tl;dr, Chris Avellone may just be boned on the de-owner issue, but he is in a better place in life now at least.

 

[deepfire]

Timing in the sense that Avellone's moment to act may have been the moment Feargus de-ownered him.

Do you really think a person in a situation such as Chris' one (at the time of the de-ownering), would have been in position to launch a complicated endeavour requiring huge chunks of his emotional energy, attention and money?

Otherwise, the logic you provide makes sense, indeed.. a lot of the opportunity has probably been lost.

One question that Chris tangentially touches -- the deownering was timed to take advantage of his weakness -- even if he only acknowledges the different aspect of that:

Realizing my family issues and the debts therein, however, they did make an attempt to
leverage that into a far more confining separation agreement