RPG Codex Interview: Chris Avellone on Pillars Cut Content, Game Development Hierarchies and More

[Blaine]

We've had some cross-contamination between the Codex and the chan that was founded for weeaboos to doodle their noodles over cartoon drawings of little girls, but when will this get even more meta?

Will we be appearing in concert on Reddit tomorrow, perhaps? Any guesses?

 

[ColonelTeacup]

I don't get it, what outrageous claim are you being asked to believe here?

• I did have a role in things turning out this way and I did apologize to Chris for it. I gave far too little oversight, thinking that a set of constraints and approval of an initial design, with periodic email check-ins would be sufficient. Chris was often offsite, I was swamped, and it was all too easy to backburner communication. I thought more regular feedback would only have been a hindrance to someone who’d made a lot of his reputation off of so many well-liked companions.

Hasn't it always been pretty obvious that something like this is what happened? I don't see that anything that Chris has said contradicts it.

Sounds like PR speak for "I ignored this talented co-founders communications because he's talented and made great games so there's no need to talk to him". Even in terms of PR speak, it sounds idiotic. Who doesn't communicate with their team on a group project?

 

[Azarkon]

The motivation isn't hard to understand.

Dude, are you for real. This some insano cruel shit. I never, ever heard any that came close to this kind of shit in the game industry, and this industry is a really toxic place. Granted, I'm not a developer, but an agreement where you can't never work again IN YOUR WHOLE FUCKING LIFE? That is beyond insane. It has nothing to do with business, bra. That's pure evil. Remember the theme of Tyranny is "When Evil Wins". That's fiting for Obsidian. Here is another irony: Avellone's character Erritis in T:ToN, acting in a way because he was forced to.

It's common in the technology industry, in general, but as I said in the post you quoted: it's usually limited to a year or less, and it's used for critical persons, not your average programmer.

 

[Once more unto the Codex]

Who doesn't communicate with their team on a group project?

You’ve clearly never worked on a group project before


Also, I’m lost. Did Chris sign this agreement or not? If he signed it, why is he still writing for every RPG coming out this year and next if it banned him from EVER WORKING AGAIN IN HIS FIELD FOR THE REST OF HIS LIFE or whatnot?

 

[Blakemoreland Hybrid Boss]

It's the story Chris himself tells

This statement is clearly contradicted by the interview. It seems more likely that he was just holding back until he couldn't mantain the public facade any longer.

There's also the Feargus: Hey, want to kickstart a successor to Torment? Chris: I can't handle another death march story that he himself told.

Could be a tongue in cheek comment, a personal statement about a different project with different expectations, etc. If you think that creative people settle down like this you need to go out more. Avellone complained in mutiple occasions that he was first and foremost a developer and that he resented people labelling him as a mere writer.

I know what he said. The question is, why he said it - because he personally felt that way, or because this was the story they decided on when he signed his separation contract.

The later, obviously. The interview trumps your quote, Roguey. Sorry.

 

[2house2fly]

I don't get it, what outrageous claim are you being asked to believe here?

• I did have a role in things turning out this way and I did apologize to Chris for it. I gave far too little oversight, thinking that a set of constraints and approval of an initial design, with periodic email check-ins would be sufficient. Chris was often offsite, I was swamped, and it was all too easy to backburner communication. I thought more regular feedback would only have been a hindrance to someone who’d made a lot of his reputation off of so many well-liked companions.

Hasn't it always been pretty obvious that something like this is what happened? I don't see that anything that Chris has said contradicts it.

Sounds like PR speak for "I ignored this talented co-founders communications because he's talented and made great games so there's no need to talk to him". Even in terms of PR speak, it sounds idiotic. Who doesn't communicate with their team on a group project?

It does sound idiotic, which is probably why Fenstermaker described it as a mistake he made

 

[Latro]

The motivation isn't hard to understand.

Dude, are you for real. This some insano cruel shit. I never, ever heard any that came close to this kind of shit in the game industry, and this industry is a really toxic place. Granted, I'm not a developer, but an agreement where you can't never work again IN YOUR WHOLE FUCKING LIFE? That is beyond insane. It has nothing to do with business, bra. That's pure evil. Remember the theme of Tyranny is "When Evil Wins". That's fiting for Obsidian. Here is another irony: Avellone's character Erritis in T:ToN, acting in a way because he was forced to.

It's common in the technology industry, in general, but as I said in the post you quoted: it's usually limited to a year or less.

Is withholding health-care to a cancer-patient for a year ethical (or getting in the way of it, at least)? Or normal? I mean, that's what they did, and MCA worked his butt off to be independent...but what if he couldn't? Or what if he had failed? There's no good way to spin this. MCA's ire is justified.

 

[Sentinel]

Who doesn't communicate with their team on a group project?

You’ve clearly never worked on a group project before


Also, I’m lost. Did Chris sign this agreement or not? If he signed it, why is he still writing for every RPG coming out this year and next if it banned him from EVER WORKING AGAIN IN HIS FIELD FOR THE REST OF HIS LIFE or whatnot?

No he didn't. He told them to stick the paper up their butts, lit a cigar and walked out of the building with his jacket over his right shoulder.

 

[Once more unto the Codex]

Who doesn't communicate with their team on a group project?

You’ve clearly never worked on a group project before


Also, I’m lost. Did Chris sign this agreement or not? If he signed it, why is he still writing for every RPG coming out this year and next if it banned him from EVER WORKING AGAIN IN HIS FIELD FOR THE REST OF HIS LIFE or whatnot?

No he didn't. He told them to stick the paper up their butts, lit a cigar and walked out of the building with his jacket over his right shoulder.

So what’s this NDA that allegedly kept him from spilling the beans until Fenstemaker’s interview?

 

[Azarkon]

The motivation isn't hard to understand.

Dude, are you for real. This some insano cruel shit. I never, ever heard any that came close to this kind of shit in the game industry, and this industry is a really toxic place. Granted, I'm not a developer, but an agreement where you can't never work again IN YOUR WHOLE FUCKING LIFE? That is beyond insane. It has nothing to do with business, bra. That's pure evil. Remember the theme of Tyranny is "When Evil Wins". That's fiting for Obsidian. Here is another irony: Avellone's character Erritis in T:ToN, acting in a way because he was forced to.

It's common in the technology industry, in general, but as I said in the post you quoted: it's usually limited to a year or less.

Is withholding health-care to a cancer-patient for a year ethical (or getting in the way of it, at least)? Or normal? I mean, that's what they did, and MCA worked his butt off to be independent...but what if he couldn't? Or what if he had failed? There's no good way to spin this. MCA's ire is justified.

Obviously not, but the no competition agreement is a common tactic used by technology companies to prevent their critical employees, who they've invested significant resources in, from just walking away to a competitor. Usually, though, it's a contract negotiated between the two parties, where both enter into a voluntary agreement to avoid a bad break up. Chris, however, sounds like he was forced into the situation through his debts, this would make what Obsidian did highly immoral.

 

[Bigg Boss]

Immortal typo ftw.

 

[Sentinel]

We've had some cross-contamination between the Codex and the chan that was founded for weeaboos to doodle their noodles over cartoon drawings of little girls, but when will this get even more meta?

Will we be appearing in concert on Reddit tomorrow, perhaps? Any guesses?

Decided to check if reddit had anything to say about this. Found:

 

[ColonelTeacup]

I don't get it, what outrageous claim are you being asked to believe here?

• I did have a role in things turning out this way and I did apologize to Chris for it. I gave far too little oversight, thinking that a set of constraints and approval of an initial design, with periodic email check-ins would be sufficient. Chris was often offsite, I was swamped, and it was all too easy to backburner communication. I thought more regular feedback would only have been a hindrance to someone who’d made a lot of his reputation off of so many well-liked companions.

Hasn't it always been pretty obvious that something like this is what happened? I don't see that anything that Chris has said contradicts it.

Sounds like PR speak for "I ignored this talented co-founders communications because he's talented and made great games so there's no need to talk to him". Even in terms of PR speak, it sounds idiotic. Who doesn't communicate with their team on a group project?

It does sound idiotic, which is probably why Fenstermaker described it as a mistake he made

Perhaps he was jealous of the obvious divide in talent between the two of them, and was lashing out as a result?

 

[Ninjerk]

Durance and GM implemented as envisioned would result in less content elsewhere.

Sounds like an improvement.

 

[Latro]

Chris, however, sounds like he was forced into the situation through his debts, this would make what Obsidian did highly immortal.

that's a good plot

 

[Azarkon]

Reddit always manages to out stupid itself.

 

[Sentinel]

Who doesn't communicate with their team on a group project?

You’ve clearly never worked on a group project before


Also, I’m lost. Did Chris sign this agreement or not? If he signed it, why is he still writing for every RPG coming out this year and next if it banned him from EVER WORKING AGAIN IN HIS FIELD FOR THE REST OF HIS LIFE or whatnot?

No he didn't. He told them to stick the paper up their butts, lit a cigar and walked out of the building with his jacket over his right shoulder.

So what’s this NDA that allegedly kept him from spilling the beans until Fenstemaker’s interview?

It's what they wanted him to sign I think. But he didn't. It involved not talking/criticizing his past games and not working on RPGs. Didn't have anything to do with Fenstermaker's interview IIRC.

EDIT: here's the relevant bit I could find in a hurry

Realizing my family issues and the debts therein, however, they did make an attempt to leverage that into a far more confining separation agreement that would remove my right to work on RPGs, and my silence on all issues that could pertain to Obsidian or any other company they were involved with or the CEO had a % in (Fig, Zero Radius, Dark Rock Industries, etc.). This included an inability to critique games I’d worked on – much of my critiques on my own games tend to be blunt, and not being able to speak to them felt unnatural to me.

The company involvement silence worried me more, however, as it meant that if anything illegal happened with any of those companies (these could include serious charges like accounting issues, silence on harassment issues with regards to employees, perjury related to company documents and payments), I couldn’t speak about the issue, even if I felt strongly against what was being revealed.

While all this is good for Obsidian's upper management and is what is sometimes considered "good business," I did feel it showed a lack of ethics.

 

[ColonelTeacup]

We've had some cross-contamination between the Codex and the chan that was founded for weeaboos to doodle their noodles over cartoon drawings of little girls, but when will this get even more meta?

Will we be appearing in concert on Reddit tomorrow, perhaps? Any guesses?

Decided to check if reddit had anything to say about this. Found:

Small Indie Company
Enough said right there.

 

[Kyl Von Kull]

[


Is withholding health-care to a cancer-patient for a year ethical (or getting in the way of it, at least)? Or normal? I mean, that's what they did, and MCA worked his butt off to be independent...but what if he couldn't? Or what if he had failed? There's no good way to spin this. MCA's ire is justified.

I think there’s some confusion here. It’s doubtful MCA’s mom was getting her health insurance from Obsidian. They cancelled MCA’s health plan, which typically covers spouse and kids, not parents (unless he already had her as a dependent before she got sick and even then many plans won’t cover a parent). His mom was probably old enough to be eligible for Medicare, not that that’s necessarily adequate for treating cancer. But Feargus wasn’t kicking Mrs. Avellone off her chemo, except insofar as he was denying Chris the money he needed to pay her treatment costs out of pocket.

Pretty sure this all would’ve played out differently if his mom’s cancer treatment was genuinely in the balance.

 

[ColonelTeacup]

[


Is withholding health-care to a cancer-patient for a year ethical (or getting in the way of it, at least)? Or normal? I mean, that's what they did, and MCA worked his butt off to be independent...but what if he couldn't? Or what if he had failed? There's no good way to spin this. MCA's ire is justified.

I think there’s some confusion here. It’s doubtful MCA’s mom was getting her health insurance from Obsidian. They cancelled MCA’s health plan, which typically covers spouse and kids, not parents (unless he already had her as a dependent before she got sick and even then many plans won’t cover a parent). His mom was probably old enough to be eligible for Medicare, not that that’s necessarily adequate for treating cancer. But Feargus wasn’t kicking Mrs. Avellone off her chemo, except insofar as he was denying Chris the money he needed to pay her treatment costs out of pocket.

Pretty sure this all would’ve played out differently if his mom’s cancer treatment was genuinely in the balance.

Jesus Christ, they stopped his mother sick with cancer from getting treatments?

 

[Blakemoreland Hybrid Boss]

Durance and GM implemented as envisioned would result in less content elsewhere.

Sounds like an improvement.

But how about the amazing writing and quests of important figures such as Carrie Patel and Olivia Veras??? You are losing the touch, Roguey. Get a grip.

 

[Ninjerk]

[


Is withholding health-care to a cancer-patient for a year ethical (or getting in the way of it, at least)? Or normal? I mean, that's what they did, and MCA worked his butt off to be independent...but what if he couldn't? Or what if he had failed? There's no good way to spin this. MCA's ire is justified.

I think there’s some confusion here. It’s doubtful MCA’s mom was getting her health insurance from Obsidian. They cancelled MCA’s health plan, which typically covers spouse and kids, not parents (unless he already had her as a dependent before she got sick and even then many plans won’t cover a parent). His mom was probably old enough to be eligible for Medicare, not that that’s necessarily adequate for treating cancer. But Feargus wasn’t kicking Mrs. Avellone off her chemo, except insofar as he was denying Chris the money he needed to pay her treatment costs out of pocket.

Pretty sure this all would’ve played out differently if his mom’s cancer treatment was genuinely in the balance.

Jesus Christ, they stopped his mother sick with cancer from getting treatments?

Like, barred the doors of the treatment facility?

 

[Latro]

[


Is withholding health-care to a cancer-patient for a year ethical (or getting in the way of it, at least)? Or normal? I mean, that's what they did, and MCA worked his butt off to be independent...but what if he couldn't? Or what if he had failed? There's no good way to spin this. MCA's ire is justified.

I think there’s some confusion here. It’s doubtful MCA’s mom was getting her health insurance from Obsidian. They cancelled MCA’s health plan, which typically covers spouse and kids, not parents (unless he already had her as a dependent before she got sick and even then many plans won’t cover a parent). His mom was probably old enough to be eligible for Medicare, not that that’s necessarily adequate for treating cancer. But Feargus wasn’t kicking Mrs. Avellone off her chemo, except insofar as he was denying Chris the money he needed to pay her treatment costs out of pocket.

Pretty sure this all would’ve played out differently if his mom’s cancer treatment was genuinely in the balance.

Jesus Christ, they stopped his mother sick with cancer from getting treatments?

Like, barred the doors of the treatment facility?

i heard they put some wolves around the facility

 

[Blaine]

We've had some cross-contamination between the Codex and the chan that was founded for weeaboos to doodle their noodles over cartoon drawings of little girls, but when will this get even more meta?

Will we be appearing in concert on Reddit tomorrow, perhaps? Any guesses?

Decided to check if reddit had anything to say about this. Found:

Holy shit.

What an incredible ride this has been so far. It's almost as exciting as when NeoFAG self-destructed a few months ago, and has the potential to surpass it, even.

 

[ColonelTeacup]

They weren't supposed to use Tyranny as a playbook for dealing with employees.