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Interview RPG Codex Interview: George Ziets on Eternity, Torment, and crafting worlds

Infinitron

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Enjoy the Revolution! Another revolution around the sun that is. Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
To enter the codex pantheon you only need to have worked on a CRPG or two and mention the codex in a positive fashion somewhere.

Wrong. You also need to point out, or at least strongly hint, that modern/console RPGs suck.
 

Jasede

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Insert Title Here RPG Wokedex Codex Year of the Donut I'm very into cock and ball torture
Having some credibility when you say that - for example, not making nothing but action-RPGs with no notable strengths in writing or story - really helps with that. Saying modern/console RPGs suck when you make nothing better isn't exactly a vote of confidence.

Look, I'm just saying- they've never done anything of note. Let's hope they make some great RPGs with all the money you threw at them; then I can eat my words and enjoy. I'm merely saying I'd rather have thrown money at the Knights of the Chalice guy- except of course that'd be futile since he's making some REAL TIME STRATEGY GAME now; fuck him.
 

Infinitron

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Enjoy the Revolution! Another revolution around the sun that is. Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
Saying modern/console RPGs suck when you make nothing better isn't exactly a vote of confidence.

Here's the thing, though - Larian have a working game. They've shown it to us. It's coming out this year. That's what sets them apart from the other big RPG Kickstarters.
 

Jasede

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True, and that's certainly a good reason. I just wish I shared your enthusiasm. See, I didn't actually like what I saw.

But hey- if it gets some of us some RPG they'll enjoy - and I can mope about - it was definitely worth it. So I hope it turns out good for you Larian fans, even if I'm not one.
 
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Look, I'm just saying- they've never done anything of note. Let's hope they make some great RPGs with all the money you threw at them; then I can eat my words and enjoy. I'm merely saying I'd rather have thrown money at the Knights of the Chalice guy- except of course that'd be futile since he's making some REAL TIME STRATEGY GAME now; fuck him.
I'm not even going to comment on the Larian thing (as it has been done to death in the actual Larian threads), but apart from the RTS, Pierre Begue's also working on KotC2. He posted a couple of early screenshots and some concept art over at his "KotC Buyer Forum" some two weeks ago, in case you're interested (you need to register first, then enter your KotC unlock code in the "user control panel" section in order to gain access).

Edit: And the George Zeits interview was great, btw. I loved his work on MotB, but the camera issues and my personal distaste for high-level D&D combat took away much of my enjoyment, so I'm really looking forward to what he can do with P:E, Torment and one day, hopefully, a full-scale project of his own.

Edit2: ...and edited in a link to my opinon (and fixed it, sorry, Jasede).
 

Jasede

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Aight, sounds good. Can you give me a link about where you guys explain why you like/trust Larian? I am really curious in reading it and there's quite a few threads to look through. I'd really appreciate it.
 

Jasede

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Insert Title Here RPG Wokedex Codex Year of the Donut I'm very into cock and ball torture
I appreciate that but it's 150+ pages. If someone can just condense the arguments or tell me whereabouts I should like in the thread that'd be all. I'm just curious!

But if you don't know where to look either, that's okay too. I gotta go to the store.

Edit: Marquess Cornwallis

Your link doesn't lead anywhere.

Edit2: Thanks Marquess Cornwallis, I appreciate that.
 

CappenVarra

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He posted a couple of early screenshots and some concept art over at his "KotC Buyer Forum" some two weeks ago, in case you're interested (you need to register first, then enter your KotC unlock code in the "user control panel" section in order to gain access).
Hey, this is interesting, thanks! But it says "KotC Buyers: This is a closed group, new members can only join upon invitation of a group leader" when I try to join the group - so I guess just the unlock code is not enough?
 

861129

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What's with this sudden hatred for MCA? So Arcanum is beneath His fists. Deal with it.

Ziets really does seem like a manifestation of Codexian sensibilities in the flesh, though. I shudder to think of his private life.
 
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He posted a couple of early screenshots and some concept art over at his "KotC Buyer Forum" some two weeks ago, in case you're interested (you need to register first, then enter your KotC unlock code in the "user control panel" section in order to gain access).
Hey, this is interesting, thanks! But it says "KotC Buyers: This is a closed group, new members can only join upon invitation of a group leader" when I try to join the group - so I guess just the unlock code is not enough?
It added me automatically (see User Control Panel / Usergroups) immediately after I entered the unlock code (under User Control Panel / Edit Profile / Customer Password), so I don't think it's set up to require any sort of manual invitation or approval.
 

CappenVarra

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He posted a couple of early screenshots and some concept art over at his "KotC Buyer Forum" some two weeks ago, in case you're interested (you need to register first, then enter your KotC unlock code in the "user control panel" section in order to gain access).
Hey, this is interesting, thanks! But it says "KotC Buyers: This is a closed group, new members can only join upon invitation of a group leader" when I try to join the group - so I guess just the unlock code is not enough?
It added me automatically (see User Control Panel / Usergroups) immediately after I entered the unlock code (under User Control Panel / Edit Profile / Customer Password), so I don't think it's set up to require any sort of manual invitation or approval.
Found it, thank you! :salute:
 

Indranys

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Will be a true bro if not because that haircut.
Oh God, the haircut.
He doesn't change it yet since last decade?
Even The Great Archdemon Todd Howard will be ashamed to have that.
 

Misconnected

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So if I could design another Fallout game… I might not design a traditional RPG at all. Instead, think of a strategy-RPG hybrid like King of Dragon Pass – set in the Fallout universe. You’re placed in the role of the tribe’s leaders, responsible for establishing a home base, keeping your people safe and fed, exploring the surrounding wasteland, and managing relations with other tribes and factions.

Wow, I want to play this.

On the one hand, I totally agree with you Drowed.

But on the other, what he said bugs the fuck out of me. In traditional tabletop games, my crew and I don't start out as part of the established power structure of the setting. Opening up that power structure and then trying to climb to the top of it, is half the point of playing a campaign. Starting out as ambitious nobodies intent on making a dent in the world, learning the goals of the various factions, working for some, against others, and getting screwed over by many. Often ending op tearing holes in the power structure by accident, or living to regret doing it on purpose before checking our info.

Mr. Ziets is essentially saying he can't be arsed to make more than the last half of a game.

It's the same reason things like the TES games make me despair at the state of CRPGs. The series deliver lovingly crafted settings full of stuff that can't do anything and that players can't interact with above the level of the act of punching shit. The peoples of TES have no lives, no incomes, no needs, no ambitions, no personalities, no... Nothing beyond animated limbs. Murdering a tax collector doesn't matter in TES, because he doesn't actually collect taxes from anyone, or for anyone, and even if he did, they weren't going to be used for anything.

Once upon a time I thought the Codex meant reactivity when it talked of Choices and Consequences. You know, like stealing the tax monies might mean the local lord couldn't maintain sufficient manpower to protect the roads, making room for bandits to prey on player characters and merchants, potentially starving the city of critical resources and ultimately leading to the local lord being replaced by his liege or the city getting conquered by a hostile faction. Or perhaps even letting a resourceful and sufficiently heroic-appearing player character take the lord's place.

Then I discovered that's not even what Reactivity means. But then, dynamic and interactive world and faction simulation just isn't a concept that exists in CRPG-land. So I should really not be surprised that there's no catchy term for it. And as it does exist - if only barely - in strategy game land, I guess I also shouldn't be surprised CRPG devs can't imagine doing it without lobbing off the RPG bits of their CRPGs.

It's still frustrating to see, though.
 

861129

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On the one hand, I totally agree with you Drowed.

But on the other, what he said bugs the fuck out of me. In traditional tabletop games, my crew and I don't start out as part of the established power structure of the setting. Opening up that power structure and then trying to climb to the top of it, is half the point of playing a campaign. Starting out as ambitious nobodies intent on making a dent in the world, learning the goals of the various factions, working for some, against others, and getting screwed over by many. Often ending op tearing holes in the power structure by accident, or living to regret doing it on purpose before checking our info.

Mr. Ziets is essentially saying he can't be arsed to make more than the last half of a game.

He never said he wanted to do a "traditional tabletop game" in the sense of an adventure beginning from the bottom of the power structure, only cutting out the first half (what would be wrong with that anyway, provided the game treated the second half well?) but rather a completely different type of game, revolving around the politics of the tribes. There would be no point in a separate adventuring first half for the sake of having one, after which the game would begin "for real", switching to different mechanics for the second half. Civilization and KoDP don't start you out as a lonely peasant either, and wouldn't benefit from doing so.

There obviously are tabletop games that are more about established power structures anyway (though I don't know what all this has to do with a Fallout video game).
 

Misconnected

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He never said he wanted to do a "traditional tabletop game" in the sense of an adventure beginning from the bottom of the power structure, only cutting out the first half (what would be wrong with that anyway, provided the game treated the second half well?) but rather a completely different type of game, revolving around the politics of the tribes.

Not as straightforward as that, no. But he did talk about ditching the traditional zero-to-hero stuff. If I read him correctly, the reason would be to skip past the fetch-questian grind that are pretty much the totality of CRPGs, and instead start at the point where CRPGs usually end.

There would be no point in a separate adventuring first half for the sake of having one, after which the game would begin "for real", switching to different mechanics for the second half. Civilization and KoDP don't start you out as a lonely peasant either, and wouldn't benefit from doing so.

What I was apparently failing somewhat to rant about in the post you quoted, is that the two halves shouldn't be separate things and shouldn't have separate mechanics.

I'll stuff Mr.Z's mouth full of words for a bit, and hope I don't do it unfairly, but..

The zero-to-hero stuff - the totality of CRPGs, generally speaking - is increasingly stale to him, because it's growing hard for him to ignore that he only has agency within the framework of the quest he's playing, despite the fact there's a whole setting sitting right there beyond the invisible cage of the quest structure. Because he cannot define his character(s) beyond the generally few and often purely cosmetic options the quest structure occasionally affords him. And because when he's finally run to the end of the quest structure rails and awarded a place in the power structure of the setting - or at least freedom from the invisible quest cage - he gets a face full of Credits Screen (sometimes figuratively, but same fucking thing) instead the tools to play in and with the setting.

What my above rant was supposed to be about, is that there's no fucking reason to lock the player into a quest structure cage until he's level gazillion, and then end the game. And that there's no fucking reason not to allow the player to play with the the setting of the game until he's level gazillion and has ported his CRPG end game save into a strategy game.

It's a nonsense divide and it should have died in a fire 30 years ago.

There obviously are tabletop games that are more about established power structures anyway (though I don't know what all this has to do with a Fallout video game). .

I guess BECMI D&D is kind of the answer to both.

It came in 5 boxed sets, covering levels of play from Basic to Immortal. Or from zero to godhood, if you prefer. The first box of stuff introduced the system, character creation and provided tools for playing games of incompetent nobodies just turned adventurer. The second box greatly expanded the system, and provided tools for campaign play and for transforming characters from nobodies to nobles, complete with armies, castles and similar shit. The last boxed set was aimed at characters for whom the world itself was no longer enough.

In most ways that matter, this is what both tabletop and computer RPGs grew out of. Fallout too. The expectations we have of CRPGs are - at least to a pretty significant extent - informed by traditional TTRPGs.

Though perhaps you and Mr.Z's CRPG expectations are less informed by traditional TTRPGs than mine. Because to me, going: "instead of implementing the solution to the annoying shit in CRPGs, in actual CRPGs, let's make strategy games instead." Is such a mental geargrinding shift I couldn't even reaction-rant comprehensible.

Don't get me wrong, I can kind of appreciate why the both of you would think strategy games instead. Several really damn good ones are all about playing with dynamic, interactive world and faction simulations - and KoDP in particular is really damn RPG-like (unsurprisingly, considering it's part of the TTRPG RuneQuest's Glorantha setting).
 

tuluse

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Serpent in the Staglands Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Shadorwun: Hong Kong
So Ziets would like to make a Fallout KotDP, and that turns into Ziets doesn't like or want to make RPGs anymore.

This is an enormous leap in logic, and not supported by anything he wrote.
 

Cosmo

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So Ziets would like to make a Fallout KotDP, and that turns into Ziets doesn't like or want to make RPGs anymore.

This is an enormous leap in logic, and not supported by anything he wrote.

Come on, we all know that reading stupid illogical shit in someone else's perfectly sane words is not a thing a codexer would do...
 

Misconnected

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Come on, we all know that reading stupid illogical shit in someone else's perfectly sane words is not a thing a codexer would do...

Home, sweet home <3

...

Cosmo & Toulouse I'm sure I did read a novel's worth of my own shitty making into what Mr.Z said in the interview. And I'm not asking for your personal point by fucking point re-interpretation of another man's probably not terribly considered words. But if you care to waste your time and bandwidth writing 5 lines to illuminate me, instead of a half, I'd appreciate it. Fisting to encourage & stuffs.



And have a nice Sunday
 

Cosmo

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I just think he sees that lying in the fringes of our beloved RPG genre, there are wonderful and unexploited game concepts just waiting to be properly implemented.
It shows his game designer's mind is still fertile and has yet to be tainted by the industry's shyness and lack of imagination.
I remember a time when bending formulas and inventing new ones wasn't a bad thing, and when innovating on a fundamental level (i.e. gameplay and genre boundaries) seemed to be the most natural thing in the world...
 

Severian Silk

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I had a lot of Ziets in junior high and high school. My skin cleared up as I got older, however.
 

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