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Codex Interview RPG Codex Retrospective Interview: Arnold Hendrick on Darklands (with Retrospective by Josh Sawyer)

Infinitron

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Codex Year of the Donut Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
I greatly admired Baldur’s Gate (1998) and its sequel. I consider them the finest and most polished “control a party” RPGs ever made.

Why do people dream of him making another RPG again?

Of all the things he said in the interview that could discredit him, you chose that?

The other bits were already said. Why repeat them? Everyone else likes to take the 'what devs like as games' bits to discredit anyone from MCA to Tim Cain, so why not join the fun? Seems that most devs love Bioware games the most...:M

Uh, okay. Not getting into another Baldur's Gate pro vs con argument, so go in peace :M
 
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Fezzik

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I say God Damn that was a good interview! Even if he lacks the unflinching idealism of a Codex king, I dig what he thinks about possibilities for historical cRPGs and reasons for game mechanics choices. I'd like to see what he could do for a single player RPG today.
 

commie

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I say God Damn that was a good interview! Even if he lacks the unflinching idealism of a Codex king, I dig what he thinks about possibilities for historical cRPGs and reasons for game mechanics choices. I'd like to see what he could do for a single player RPG today.

He'd have a RTwP party combat like Baldur's Gate or more currently Jagged Alliance Back in Action for starters...

He could do a lot if he teamed up with Aterdux to make an open world RPG. They already have the basis with the engine and low fantasy late Medieval Germany approach. That's about the only chance of making something similar in feel to Darklands, but with maybe better TB combat(as said, left alone he'd pick RTwP).
 

Infinitron

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Codex Year of the Donut Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
I say God Damn that was a good interview! Even if he lacks the unflinching idealism of a Codex king, I dig what he thinks about possibilities for historical cRPGs and reasons for game mechanics choices. I'd like to see what he could do for a single player RPG today.

He'd have a RTwP party combat like Baldur's Gate or more currently Jagged Alliance Back in Action for starters...

He could do a lot if he teamed up with Aterdux to make an open world RPG. They already have the basis with the engine and low fantasy late Medieval Germany approach. That's about the only chance of making something similar in feel to Darklands, but with maybe better TB combat(as said, left alone he'd pick RTwP).

Darklands was already RTwP, why would he change it?
 

Marsal

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I say God Damn that was a good interview! Even if he lacks the unflinching idealism of a Codex king, I dig what he thinks about possibilities for historical cRPGs and reasons for game mechanics choices. I'd like to see what he could do for a single player RPG today.

He'd have a RTwP party combat like Baldur's Gate or more currently Jagged Alliance Back in Action for starters...

He could do a lot if he teamed up with Aterdux to make an open world RPG. They already have the basis with the engine and low fantasy late Medieval Germany approach. That's about the only chance of making something similar in feel to Darklands, but with maybe better TB combat(as said, left alone he'd pick RTwP).

Darklands was already RTwP, why would he change it?
Because the combat was shit and by far the weakest part of the game? Arcanum before Arcanum.
 
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Besides, I think suggesting that those clusterfucks of party control are the 'finest and most polished examples' of the party RPG really shows a distinct lack of understanding as to what makes good party combat. Which of course isn't surprising as Darklands had similar shit combat. I'm surprised that so many defend this game as something unbelievable when it fails as a RPG on so many levels. It's a fine sandbox adventure simulator though.

It does have shit combat but share with us these many levels on which Darklands fails as a RPG.
 

commie

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Besides, I think suggesting that those clusterfucks of party control are the 'finest and most polished examples' of the party RPG really shows a distinct lack of understanding as to what makes good party combat. Which of course isn't surprising as Darklands had similar shit combat. I'm surprised that so many defend this game as something unbelievable when it fails as a RPG on so many levels. It's a fine sandbox adventure simulator though.

It does have shit combat but share with us these many levels on which Darklands fails as a RPG.

Well there's the 100 LARP classes, skills and jobs for one that add almost nothing. Totally superfluous. Darklands is not alone in that regard though. A lot of early 90's RPG tried to have 50 page character creation screens with a myriad of fantastical things you could make your character a master of that meant absolutely jack shit in the game.

Having a billion different saints to pray too was also pretty unnecessary and most of the towns were exactly the same(again pointless exaggeration).

None of these these things really added to the game as a RPG, just gave an illusion of depth and scale(like Daggerfall).

Lack of traditional leveling and the barest of plots just made this into a roguelike LARP simulator, doing repetitive things over and over in order to raise skills until your character dies of old age(if you're lucky). Yeah, it's 'realistic', but also very dry and pointless, like a Sims game or Mount & Blade(the difference is that M&B is a riot in multi and combat is fun).

This is what Darklands would look like today:

The_Sims_Medieval.jpg


You may scoff, but think about it: given modern tech I bet this is what Hendrick would be striving toward.
 

kaizoku

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Why do people dream of him making another RPG again?




Why bother? Without the original team doing things the same way it makes as much sense as making a Jagged Alliance 2 remake without SirTech. Why not just make a Medieval low fantasy game without the 'Darklands' baggage? Obsidian could of course do something similar, given their experience regarding Storm of Zehir and NV, but of course it would be sufficiently different from Darklands to really cause a lot of fanboi butthurt here if they called it 'Darklands 2'.

That was what I meant, hence the use of the quotes when I said "Darklands 2".
As for the " sufficiently different from Darklands ", that would depend on what would he be changing anyway.
 

darkpatriot

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commie

Expanding on those things that you want to write off as LARPing is the way I'd like to see CRPGs go. No one has really done much with sandbox RPGs since Darklands and Daggerfall. I think some roguelikes have done some stuff in that direction but I don't pay attention to them as much as I should. A spiritual successor to Darklands would please me mightily.

And sandbox RPGs(or the direction designers might want to take them) are not like Sims games. A better example for you to use would be the Guild series of games. It still isn't close to sandbox RPGs or the direction that designers might want to take them though. That series has some stuff in common with RPGs but it's focus is entirely different. It is almost solely about strategic character management.
 

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Guido Fawkes

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I salute you, crooked bee :salute:

That was a damn fine interview. I am glad I suggested it, and even more glad that you liked my suggestion and took the time to contact the man. That bit about possible Darklands sequels is cause for lament. They would have been awesome.

You may scoff, but think about it: given modern tech I bet this is what Hendrick would be striving toward.

You are probably wrong. If he ever gets back to crpg territory with a Darklands sequel and does it through kickstarter, his project will obviously have to be loyal to the original material. I don't see him going popamole on it. You are making a mess of the fact that he has been working on mmos for so long, but really, it is not such a big deal. He can clearly separate the two genres, just read the damn interview.

ok, after reading those last questions it is clear it will never happen. He has lost the flame that kept him going.

But maybe Sawyer and Obsidian would be willing to kickstart a "Darklands 2"?

It will be great if Hendricks spins the wheel again, but if he doesn't, I guess something is better than nothing. The thing with Darklands is that nobody tried it again. Really, how many rpgs in realistic pseudo-historical settings do you know about? How many games that tried the sandbox ideas used by it?

Even if Darklands remains dead on the water without a sequel, someone should at least try a spiritual sucessor of sorts indeed. Hendricks is aware of the whole kickstarter craze and of the fandom his game has though, maybe he will get around it...
 

mikaelis

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There is a lot more you can do with German history in that period. You can also add in things about the Hussites in Bohemia, the power of the Hanseatic League, the fall of the Teutonic Order, and rising Polish kingdom under the great Jagiellon dynasty. Adventures involving the struggle between the various papal factions could have been very interesting: the catholic church had three competing popes in the early 1400s.

Any cRPG within this period with a little bit of magic would be awesome. Reminds me of this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Narrenturm_(novel)

Personally, I'd prefer if CDPR selected this work of Sapkowski over Twitcher.
 
In My Safe Space
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Darklands had pretty good combat. One of the best I've seen in cRPGs. It had two different types of damage, dependent on worn armour and weapons, it had ranged weapons with variable loading times with actual loading animations, it had ability to decide whenever the character will fight defensively, agressively or will try to find weak points in enemy armour/defence.
That would be "shit" when compared to what?
 

Crooked Bee

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Codex 2013 Codex 2014 PC RPG Website of the Year, 2015 Codex 2016 - The Age of Grimoire MCA Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 BattleTech Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire
Has the Codex ever landed an interview with Neal Hallford (nealiios) ? The man posted here it twice I believe, and is actually interested in a remake of BaK via Kickstarter...

He's on my list of people to contact. So maybe someday.

Please do. He posted on 'Dex about one year ago in one of BaK-related threads, so I think he'll agree.

His account: http://www.rpgcodex.net/forums/index.php?members/nealiios.13218/

I will, sure. It's just that I'm going to be extremely busy in the following 2-3 weeks, and I've already got, like, 3 other interviews on my plate. In July, however, I'll be sure to.
 

Alex

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You know, there are lots of things in his answers that could make a Codexer rage, like the whole talk about real time combat, or the idea tablets are good for anything else than hitting people on the head, or the thought people who liked Darklands would like a MMO game as a sequel. But th thing that actually makes me wonder is the whole thing about business he mentions in a lot of his answers. He comments on how Microprose had this really chaotic environment where games were allowed to grow rather than being specified and quantified up front, and I think this may have been crucial in making those games what they are.

Maybe I only think this because I am an extreme programming twick, but while I think Microprose games had a sene of identity bewtween then, something that made you think (ooooh, this is a Microprose game), they never (at least the ones I played) felt formulaic by any means. They had similarities in their design phisolophies, but they were always open to try new things with the game in order to reach those. Now, of course, any game company needs to be successful to stay afloat. But it seems to me that locking up the process they are made, requiring strict design documents, a more or less exact design vocabulary and so on really hurts the end product.
 

PorkaMorka

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Darklands had pretty good combat. One of the best I've seen in cRPGs. It had two different types of damage, dependent on worn armour and weapons, it had ranged weapons with variable loading times with actual loading animations, it had ability to decide whenever the character will fight defensively, agressively or will try to find weak points in enemy armour/defence.
That would be "shit" when compared to what?

The combat model was good (or at least decent). It pretended to simulate a lot of cool stuff, as you mentioned above.

But the combat gameplay wasn't particularly good. Think about what exactly the player is doing during combat in Darklands. Is he really thinking about his moves? Is he really challenged by the game? (Don't confuse this with being challenged by the UI.) Or is he just performing a series of mundane tasks, giving his guys orders and watching the result?

Combat in Darklands needed to involve the player more, in a fun way, not a mundane way. In short, it needed to be more of a game.
 

Anthony Davis

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I would like to see a Josh Sawyer Darklands LP. His history learnin' is up there and he speaks German, plus he can bring the lulz.

I doubt he would do it though due to his schedule which I imagine is busy.
 

Sergiu64

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Darklands had pretty good combat. One of the best I've seen in cRPGs. It had two different types of damage, dependent on worn armour and weapons, it had ranged weapons with variable loading times with actual loading animations, it had ability to decide whenever the character will fight defensively, agressively or will try to find weak points in enemy armour/defence.
That would be "shit" when compared to what?

The combat model was good (or at least decent). It pretended to simulate a lot of cool stuff, as you mentioned above.

But the combat gameplay wasn't particularly good. Think about what exactly the player is doing during combat in Darklands. Is he really thinking about his moves? Is he really challenged by the game? (Don't confuse this with being challenged by the UI.) Or is he just performing a series of mundane tasks, giving his guys orders and watching the result?

Combat in Darklands needed to involve the player more, in a fun way, not a mundane way. In short, it needed to be more of a game.

Hmmm, I kinda like the combat model of just letting the guys fight each other and beat each other based on stats and a realistic fighting model. Kinda like the paradox games where the battles are fought without tactical interference from the player, just take into account the numbers, general stats, terrain bonuses and possibly troop quality. Or stuff like Football Manager series where you just tell your players what kind of stuff you want them to be doing and they try to win the game while loosely following your directions. Instead of stuff like Total War series where you get to pretend to be tactical genius hundreds of times over. I mean is there really something exciting in pulling the same tactical tricks over and over and over?

I guess I can't really see how they could have improved Darklands combat gameplay without converting it into an action RPG or making it a lot slower.
 

PorkaMorka

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Hmmm, I kinda like the combat model of just letting the guys fight each other and beat each other based on stats and a realistic fighting model. Kinda like the paradox games where the battles are fought without tactical interference from the player, just take into account the numbers, general stats, terrain bonuses and possibly troop quality. Or stuff like Football Manager series where you just tell your players what kind of stuff you want them to be doing and they try to win the game while loosely following your directions.

I do agree that this can be a fun way of doing things, I especially liked the battles in Dominions 3 where you could give orders, but only before the battle.

But that doesn't really seem to have been what Darklands was going for. The player did need to interfere with combat, quite often. Managing his units in combat was one of the biggest parts of the game. The player had a lot of stuff he to do in combat, it's just that the things he was doing weren't very challenging or interesting.

Instead of stuff like Total War series where you get to pretend to be tactical genius hundreds of times over. I mean is there really something exciting in pulling the same tactical tricks over and over and over?

I agree with you here, it seems like this is a common problem with games that include "tactical combat" but procedurally generate the battles. Usually the player can quickly figure out a few tricks that the AI can't handle and use them over and over.

Of course, there is a simple and effective solution, hand craft every map and hand place all opposition, so that the player is forced to unravel a puzzle designed by a human designer, not just kill some dumb AI with the same old tricks.

I guess I can't really see how they could have improved Darklands combat gameplay without converting it into an action RPG or making it a lot slower.

Well, look at Baldur's Gate 2's combat for an example for real time with pause* RPG combat done right. Of course, it's tough to translate BG2's success to a game like Darklands which has no magic, since magic is basically what makes BG2's combat work.

Still, Darklands could have included more detail in the melee and ranged combat systems (activated moves, etc) and introduced more prayers and alchemy potions that were useful in combat, etc. Since combat was one of the most significant parts of the game, they ought to have been considering from day one how exactly they were going to avoid having it become a clusterfuck.

Making something turn based doesn't always make it better, but using something more structured that real time with pause would probably have been a good idea for Darklands. Since they only had a few systems to work with (melee, ranged, alchemy, maybe prayers) they might have benefited from squeezing some more detail out of those systems. JA2 for example does fine without any sort of magic system or activated ability system at all. Melee is basically an afterthought too, but they made the ranged combat so good that the game still works.

Darklands had a lot of cool ideas in the endurance system, weapon vs armor system, etc. But they are partially wasted because the combat is such a clusterfuck.

* Sort of... it still has a round based structure, which is beneficial.
 

Phelot

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Nice interview.

I don't know why him mentioning real time combat is suppose to be so bad. RTwP sucks only when it tries to emulate a normally turn-based system and even then it can be decent enough, though you always get the feeling that it should have just been turn based.
 
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Guido Fawkes

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RTwP was really well done in Darklands. If this was about a turn-based game franchise I would understand all the whining, but Darklands was pretty much the first rpg game ever with with RTwP. The grand daddy of such gameplay, if you please. If a sequel ever shows up it should be like that.
 

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