Codex Review RPG Codex Retrospective Review: Pillars of Eternity Revisited

[Delterius]

But the fact that you need to gimp yourself in order to make the game challenging is a proof that is poorly designed.

Let's start this over. Do you think Baldur's Gate has adequate resource management if you don't rest scum?

If the issue was wether the IE games enforced rest restriction adequately then I'd agree with you. They don't and Pillars doest it better.

However what is being discussed are people who rest spam in both of these games. In Pillars case this would entail multiple trips back to town to buy more camp supplies. At least on the harder difficulty modes.

My proposal is that this is unnecessary in either of those games since dungeon and encounter design never puts that much pressure on your resources. If you use everything, spells and consummables, you won't need to rest every two battles. This is true all at once for Baldur's Gate, Icewind Dale and PoE 3.0.

This is in contrast with, say, Neverwinter Nights OCs. Where the amount of trash encounters is designed for rest spamming.

Its a subtle difference that, yes, does entail a houserule for the IE games because neither Black Isle nor BioWare had the balls to restrict resting in dangerous areas.

Your Skyrim analogy fails because Skyrim at its core is a bad game. It lacks all the interesting elements of both Action and RPG gameplay. The IE games however are good for their party combat. The house rule bolsters what's already there. Not wearing armor in Skyrim would just make you cast healing spells more often.

You are compelled to abuse it because your spells have number of uses per rest limit and your characters moan like babies when they are tired after traveling, which is most of the time, really.

They can travel for days nonstop before fatigue sets in. Also get good. Spells are extremely powerful in AD&D. You don't need whole spellbooks to win encounters.

 

[FreeKaner]

If the unlimited resting makes a good resource management worse what's the point of having it at all then? What's point of per rest abilities if you can just rest after every combat?

What Sawyer is doing for Deadfire makes sense on the whole, especially with extremely punishig wounds. It will work as long as difference between camping supplies are steep enough.

Have faith.

 

[Jasede]

I loved the MotB execution and highly applaud it. Also anyone who found the spirit meter punishing needs to be shot or git gud... grumble.

Playing BG1/2 with rest spamming is EZ mode; the dungeons are designed with "realistic" D&D style resting in mind. The fact this is not enforced is probably what made the game popular in the first place. Before you protest, the whole point of a Wizard in D&D is to /carefully/ decide whether you cast a spell now or later; none of that spam every encounter shit. That's what your Fighters are for.

 

[Infinitron]

Sawyer already said that 'hard counters' are an integral part of PoE 3.0 and they weren't added earlier because they were afraid of confusing games journos and SA scrubs. Which was the whole point of the graze/hit system. People graze their way towards victory without needing to learn the game. That was a criticism of the system going back to the Sensuki/Roxor era.

There's no real reason to slightly reinvent the wheel when 'hard counters' already put us in a spot where things 'play very well'. And Sawyer always knew that. Shed off your Roguey memes, everyone.

Damage immunities were added. It's unlikely that PoE will ever intentionally have true hard counters (ie, "mage duels").

I say "intentionally" because PoE arguably accidentally had hard counters in the form of certain battles that could be extremely challenging without a Priest's Prayers. PoE2 will spread some Prayer-like abilities to other classes to fix that.

 

[Tigranes]

The only issue with the Spirit Meter is if you were playing for the first time, picked a very unlucky sequence to visit areas and solve quests in, throw in some of your own wanderlust, and ended up fast traveling 80 times.

Otherwise, when it hungers and makes demands of you, that's what it's supposed to do, it worked well.

 

[Delterius]

It's unlikely that PoE will ever intentionally have "true" hard counters (ie, mage duels).

I don't see the difference since the term was employed to mean a lot more than just BG2's mage duels. BG1 doesn't have those and the Basilisk versus nearby undead pal was seen as a hard counter.

 

[Infinitron]

It's unlikely that PoE will ever intentionally have "true" hard counters (ie, mage duels).

I don't see the difference since the term was employed to mean a lot more than just BG2's mage duels. BG1 doesn't have those and the Basilisk versus nearby undead pal was seen as a hard counter.

Sure, or basilisk encounters. "Lock-and-key" type battles is what I mean.

 

[FreeKaner]

I loved the MotB execution and highly applaud it. Also anyone who found the spirit meter punishing needs to be shot or git gud... grumble.

Playing BG1/2 with rest spamming is EZ mode; the dungeons are designed with "realistic" D&D style resting in mind. The fact this is not enforced is probably what made the game popular in the first place. Before you protest, the whole point of a Wizard in D&D is to /carefully/ decide whether you cast a spell now or later; none of that spam every encounter shit. That's what your Fighters are for.

Exactly, the power level of Wizard spells in AD&D is balanced out by their per rest limitations, this completely goes out the window if you can use your most powerful spells to steamroll every battle. No limitations to it is basically a self-imposed difficulty level at the very best.

Another game which has a very nice, challenging but fair resource management is expeditions: conquistador. However the turn-based nature of the game which makes traveling between towns inherently costly cannot be replicated in a RTwP. Unless you put them between map transitions.

 

[Delterius]

It's unlikely that PoE will ever intentionally have "true" hard counters (ie, mage duels).

I don't see the difference since the term was employed to mean a lot more than just BG2's mage duels. BG1 doesn't have those and the Basilisk versus nearby undead pal was seen as a hard counter.

Sure, or basilisk encounters. "Lock-and-key" type battles is what I mean.

Well, the PoE equivalent is the entire Priest class. Fighting mind affecting enemies without those Prayers is worse than death. Akin to Protection against Petrification versus Basilisks.

 

[Sizzle]

PoE2 will spread some Prayer-like abilities to other classes to fix that.

Really? Great news, where did JS say that?

 

[Jasede]

I like that sort of thing. Granted, I was like 12 at the time, but buying potions to protect against petrification before going on an adventure just feels like such a nice thing to do. That's why I love RoA 2 so much; that feeling of satisfaction you get when you prepare well and do well. Your characters in that game go far if everyone has plates, mugs, silverware, a bedroll, good boots (in good condition), whetstones, well-sharpened blades (after every fight) etc. You can argue this is all busywork that is best skipped but at least at the time it felt very fitting, like I was a real adventuring party preparing for a big journey. It was a blast restocking food when I came upon a village, filling my waterskins, etc. I miss that sort of thing... Poorly implemented, though, food systems are horrible.

 

[Ulfhednar]

That is on story mode though

The only explanations for excessive FF are 1) you don't know what you're doing or 2) you are being careless.

 

[Infinitron]

PoE2 will spread some Prayer-like abilities to other classes to fix that.

Really? Great news, where did JS say that?

Did you miss the whole thing about Inspirations? https://jesawyer.tumblr.com/post/161974572686/josh-positively-thrilled-with-the-poe2-e3

In Deadfire, most buffs are now classified as Inspirations, which grant bonuses and/or counter Afflictions. A lot of classes have access to a variety of Inspirations, which means that they can grant themselves (or others) those counters.

 

[Sizzle]

PoE2 will spread some Prayer-like abilities to other classes to fix that.

Really? Great news, where did JS say that?

Did you miss the whole thing about Inspirations? https://jesawyer.tumblr.com/post/161974572686/josh-positively-thrilled-with-the-poe2-e3

In Deadfire, most buffs are now classified as Inspirations, which grant bonuses and/or counter Afflictions. A lot of classes have access to a variety of Inspirations, which means that they can grant themselves (or others) those counters.

Nah, just forgot about it :D

 

[Sentinel]

That is on story mode though

The only explanations for excessive FF are 1) you don't know what you're doing or 2) you are being careless.

3) FF is disabled (ie story mode)

 

[Sizzle]

That is on story mode though

The only explanations for excessive FF are 1) you don't know what you're doing or 2) you are being careless.

3) FF is disabled (ie story mode)

I think FF is permanently turned off in PoE2, regardless of difficulty mode.

 

[Grunker]

PoE arguably accidentally had hard counters in the form of certain battles that could be extremely challenging without a Priest's Prayers.

this is why u play w/o priest if u a real menz

 

[Infinitron]

SA has noticed this review: https://forums.somethingawful.com/s...rid=0&perpage=40&pagenumber=209#post474087410

Making a game that a plurality of the Codex claims to hate but somehow can't stop talking about is Obsidian's finest achievement.

PoE arguably accidentally had hard counters in the form of certain battles that could be extremely challenging without a Priest's Prayers.

this is why u play w/o priest if u a real manz

How about a no-priest, no-scrolls playthrough?

 

[Ulfhednar]

That is on story mode though

The only explanations for excessive FF are 1) you don't know what you're doing or 2) you are being careless.

3) FF is disabled (ie story mode)

I think FF is permanently turned off in PoE2, regardless of difficulty mode.

Really... why keep the different circles on fireballs, etc?

 

[Sizzle]

That is on story mode though

The only explanations for excessive FF are 1) you don't know what you're doing or 2) you are being careless.

3) FF is disabled (ie story mode)

I think FF is permanently turned off in PoE2, regardless of difficulty mode.

Really... why keep the different circles on fireballs, etc?

It's entirely possible I could be confusing it with something else.

 

[torpid]

I say "intentionally" because PoE arguably accidentally had hard counters in the form of certain battles that could be extremely challenging without a Priest's Prayers. PoE2 will spread some Prayer-like abilities to other classes to fix that.

lol, they are kinda self-parodic with their balance *bobbing sawyer head*

 

[Parabalus]

I think FF is permanently turned off in PoE2, regardless of difficulty mode.

It isn't, it's there, along with the INT double zone. That double zone is one of the best things they added.

this is why u play w/o priest if u a real menz

Then you become a scroll junkie . Terrified is the worst IMHO, without the prayer you can't hit shit.

 

[Sentinel]

They really aren't though, because no one actually cares what they think.

Nerds like them have no spine and are gonna buy every CRPG anyway. They might hem and haw and shift their gelatinous 300 lb mass in their chairs in outrage, but they'll buy it anyway.

Oh no

 

[Ulfhednar]

That is on story mode though

The only explanations for excessive FF are 1) you don't know what you're doing or 2) you are being careless.

3) FF is disabled (ie story mode)

I think FF is permanently turned off in PoE2, regardless of difficulty mode.

Really... why keep the different circles on fireballs, etc?

It's entirely possible I could be confusing it with something else.

I hope not, this is half the reason Tyranny was a sub-par game.

 

[Sizzle]

That is on story mode though

The only explanations for excessive FF are 1) you don't know what you're doing or 2) you are being careless.

3) FF is disabled (ie story mode)

I think FF is permanently turned off in PoE2, regardless of difficulty mode.

Really... why keep the different circles on fireballs, etc?

It's entirely possible I could be confusing it with something else.

I hope not, this is half the reason Tyranny was a sub-par game.

Not exactly half, but it certainly helped :D