Review RPG Codex Review: Undertale

[Bigg Boss]

My wife bought this on winter sale so I gave it a shot. There are a few humorous bits, but overall the game is pretty dull. I was playing in the middle of the afternoon with a cup of coffee and was nearly falling asleep in some caves after the snow/ice village.

I've seen it compared to Earthbound a lot, but EB is a much better game. Zero interest in finishing my playthrough.

That part of the game drags until Waterfall. It picks up a bit later but the game can be beat in around 4 hours. It may not be your cup of tea. Earthbound is a much better game by comparison.

 

[Cowboy Moment]

The game crashing was nice at first, but now it's just annoying having to restart the battle over and over again.

The game keeps your progress on how many of the hearts you've triggered, which means if you keep at it, you only need enough "skill" to survive the final wave.

So far that's zero. Bullet hell has never been my thing. I might try again when I'm more fully rested.

This is something that's actually starting to bother me. The vast majority of combat in Undertale is not bullet hell in any shape or form. Three bullets on the screen does not make it so. In fact, its combat design is in general much more similar to more traditional shmups (big hitbox, slow movement speed, few bullets but with weird shapes and trajectories) than to bullet hells. There's less than 10 attacks in the whole game, across all routes, that would qualify, and that's being generous. I suppose that's what you get with people who've never played a bullet hell shmup in their life trying to appear knowledgeable on the subject.

Not singling you out or anything bro, it was just a convenient example.

 

[GlutenBurger]

Bullet hell has never been my thing. I might try again when I'm more fully rested.

This is something that's actually starting to bother me. The vast majority of combat in Undertale is not bullet hell in any shape or form.

Sure, but the battle I was talking about is.

Anyway, I tried again the next day and finished it with surprising ease. Maybe the hit boxes grow more lenient with repeated failures.

 

[Damned Registrations]

I mean, even the hardest battles in Undertale aren't comparable to the easiest of bullet hells; one of the defining features of that genre is dying in one hit.

 

[flabbyjack]

Me: Opens thread.
Thread: UnderrailTale
Me: Closes thread.

 

[Reapa]

i must still be a newfag around here since i thought that felipepepe was a respected member here, with monocled tastes, writing quality reviews, for the codex of RPGs. not the codex of jRPGs...

 

[Edward The Mediocre]

The BR has a blog on gamasutra, what did you expect?

 

[T. Reich]

i must still be a newfag around here since i thought that felipepepe was a respected member here, with monocled tastes, writing quality reviews, for the codex of RPGs. not the codex of jRPGs...

Well, he is in the process of writing a very monocled book on the history of CRPGs...

 

[Reapa]

i must still be a newfag around here since i thought that felipepepe was a respected member here, with monocled tastes, writing quality reviews, for the codex of RPGs. not the codex of jRPGs...

Well, he is in the process of writing a very monocled book on the history of CRPGs...

books suck

 

[T. Reich]

i must still be a newfag around here since i thought that felipepepe was a respected member here, with monocled tastes, writing quality reviews, for the codex of RPGs. not the codex of jRPGs...

Well, he is in the process of writing a very monocled book on the history of CRPGs...

books suck

 

[felipepepe]

i must still be a newfag around here since i thought that felipepepe was a respected member here, with monocled tastes, writing quality reviews, for the codex of RPGs. not the codex of jRPGs...

Well, he is in the process of writing a very monocled book on the history of CRPGs...

Sorry, typo. History of JRPGs, です。

 

[T. Reich]

i must still be a newfag around here since i thought that felipepepe was a respected member here, with monocled tastes, writing quality reviews, for the codex of RPGs. not the codex of jRPGs...

Well, he is in the process of writing a very monocled book on the history of CRPGs...

Sorry, typo. History of JRPGs, です。

 

[Clockwork Knight]

Me: Opens thread.
Thread: UnderrailTale
Me: Closes thread.

I used to click links without reading too, until the information contained within this article opened my eyes.

http://www.gamebanshee.com/reviews/115448-pillars-of-eternity-review.html

 

[Nael]

This was a hard review to write, as it's a game better suited to a spoiler-heavy analysis or something like that... but seems like it doesn't really matter much, as the game itself is controversial enough - people either loved it or despise its very existence. Would like to hear if there's anyone who genuinely played the game and disliked it for any other reason that "MUH TUMBLR!!!1"

I dunno about tumblr, but I mostly find your review to be a rather obnoxious fanboyish wank, and the ridiculous piles of praise put therein only discourage me from trying this game because reading between the lines I can only detect apologetics and 'MEN LIEK ITZ... SO DEEP!' coupled with various overblown and very mainstream gaming journo-like comments about the bestestness of ever of certain aspects being thrown left and right.

Since launching into heated and loud arguments about things you haven't tried/have no idea about is an honoured potato tradition, here's my wall of text on why your review kind of sucks.

So to start with the start:

Since those reading this have either already played Undertale or don't care about spoilers, I'll show you the entire first scene of the game:

You start off by saying that Undertale is somehow amazung and unexpected because the tutorial guide decides to kill you. Personally, the only feeling I'd get from something like that is 'eh', which only leaves me with the conclusion that you are very easily impressionable, and by extension puts the rest of the article in a rather unfavourable light.

In fact, it sort of reminds me of that one webcomic (that I can't find, unfortunately), showing a fat nerd launching a new Atlus game. His lvl 1 enemies are penguins and he goes "wow this game is so innovative and different", and launches into tears of joy when lvl 50 enemies are different coloured penguins.

Moving on...

Yes, it's a quirky JRPG lite, with 16-bit styled graphics, a surreal atmosphere, colorful characters, meta jokes, and clever trope subversion.

Considering JRPGs are already fairly 'lite' in my book, I can only imagine how banal would an RPG-lite-lite be. 'Meta jokes' and 'clever trope subversion' are another point on the stinker table because every single xXx_INDIE_xXx piece of shit and their grandma and their dog nowadays do "meta jokes and clever trope subversion", which mostly boils down to "sick memes!!!" and "wow the tutorial guide is actually out to get you! Deep!".

From the artwork to the soundtrack, from character design to battle systems, Undertale is easily one - if not THE - most coherent and consistent game I've ever played, where everything exists for a reason and I couldn't imagine it any other way.

This has already been mentioned in this thread, and I raised my eyebrow at this as well. Battle systems aka minigames with random quirks. Character design aka a spider queen, a skellington, a tsunderplane and a heroine (that looks suspiciously a lot like a Morrowind ordinator). You know what this excellent coherence and consistency reminds me of? The Kingdom of Loathing. Except that game was at least funny.

In particular, some of the characters it introduces are among the most memorable in the last decade - in design, personality, and presentation.

Same as above.

The meta-play is fantastic, too, as it fully explores the simple fact of playing a video game.

Gee, a game that breaks the fourth wall. This has literally never happened before. The uniqueness is simply frying my brian here.

And then we have this, which has also been mentioned

Unfortunately, talking in detail about any of that would spoil most of the game's fun, as it is something that has to be witnessed first-hand, not read about.

If this game is supposedly so very chockful of all those things, then I would assume "spoiling" one or two out of those 500 would not bring much harm. Instead, you pull the typical 'I JUST CAN'T TALK ABOUT IT, MEN' card, which always does nothing but raise red alerts for me. Can you really not talk about it because it's so very grate... or because it's quite the opposite and you can't find a suitable example that wouldn't be banal as shit or you are just recycling shit you've read about the game before a hundred times over to the point that it's replaced your own perception of it?

Which is why, for this review, I'll focus on a mechanical analysis and leave the feels and emotions as a surprise to the player.

Important quote that I want to leave hanging here for later.

You can attack them each turn by selecting "Fight", followed by a brief mini-game that has you time your key presses to deal more damage (the pattern depending on the weapon you have equipped). All standard fare so far, except the part that follows, in which the monsters retaliate in a bullet-hell/SHMUP section and you have to dodge their attacks with your character in the shape of a little heart.

So a QTE minigame is "standard fare" (you must be playing some pretty interesting games there my good man). Then this standard fare is followed by another minigame. Combat by two minigames. This is good? I'd say it looks like a popamole waste of time.

Not only does this combat system break the mold of JRPG battles and offer something unique, it's also expertly used for characterization and storytelling.

So you have 50% standard fare and 50% shmup that somehow offers something unique. Please point me to this uniqueness because I don't quite see it here.

A lazy dog will simply lay on its back and bark at you, a sad ghost will cry over you, skeletons will attack you with their bones, etc.

You know what? Forget it, I was wrong. That level 1 penguin enemy looks more creative and unique compared to this. "Skeletons will attack you with their bones", FFS.

It's not all the same quirky stuff either. Boss battles take the concept further, featuring a different gameplay logic unique to each boss.

now this sounds intere...

transforms the game from a bullet hell game into a side-scroller that has you jump over bones

... nevermind

#notallquirkyminigames

Moreover, combat frequently tells a story of its own, with some characters spending the entire encounter talking to you, evolving their attack patterns, and reacting to your actions.

ENTERING STAGE 1

KIND OF YOU TO CHOOSE YOUR TOMB, PROTAGONIST! *SHOOPS LAZER*

STAGE 1 CLEAR

ENTERING STAGE 2

HAHA, THINK UR SO SMART PROTAGONIST? TRY THIS! *SHOOPS MULTILAZER*

PLZ BOW TO HOW UNIQUE MY GAME IS

The final battle, too, is a constantly changing, 4th wall-breaking treat that employs tricks like crashing your game and corrupting your save file.

you call it treats

i call it wasting my time

An iconic monster, fitting for the Codex's audience, is the tsunderplane - an airplane that behaves like a stereotypical anime girl. She likes you, B-BUT DON'T GET ANY IDEAS B-BAKA!!

The most straightforward solution is to either flee from every battle or beat everyone to an inch of their life and then "Mercy" them away. It's basically the same as battling enemies, and not very interesting. If that was all that Undertale had to offer as a "pacifist RPG", it would be a rather underwhelming one.

The real highlight comes from interacting with and helping monsters - even becoming their friends! - instead of just attacking them. This is done via the "Act" menu, which features different options for different monsters in the game. That requires you to understand the monster you're facing, his issues and desires, and how you can help him - which can range from petting a dog to taking a shower or just laughing at the monster's jokes.

(...)

How does this translate to a pacifist SHMUP battle? She initially interacts with you by sending various planes across the screen without a care in the world. Touch one and you take damage. If you "Flirt", she'll get embarrassed but continue to send planes. If you choose the "Approach", she'll send the planes again, but this time with a green aura around, signaling you to get close to the planes without touching them (or are you a pervert?!).

Such an incredible display of restrained romantic interest will satisfy her, allowing you to "Mercy" her and end the battle.

So hold on, if I'm reading this correctly - "just battling enemies in a shmup and hitting 'mercy' " is not very interesting. But just battling enemies in a shmup and hitting mercy after hitting an 'act' button is suddenly the interestingest? Something doesn't quite add up here.

This isn't quite the revolution gaming journalists have proclaimed it to be, given that the Shin Megami Tensei and Way of the Samurai series have been doing this for decades

b-but... i thought it was supposed to be truly unique and stuff

Random encounters still happen, but instead of a monster all you see is a grim message - "no one came". They are all dead.

You cleared out a zone! This is very deep!

That also brings me to Undertale's "intentional design flaw": as you kill monsters, random encounters become ever more sparser. That's supposed to represent the world turning barren, but it makes killing the last monsters in each area a pain, as you walk for minutes waiting for the next encounter to trigger. It's boring, yes. But it's thematically tied to the entire theme of the game. You're not just attacking some monsters, you're going out of your way to kill'em all.

And we arrive at one of the things that bothered me the most about this articuru. Nigga, there's no such thing as an "intentional design flaw". If it's intentional, it's a decision. It can be a really stupid decision, but if someone intentionally decided to put it into the game, then odds are that person thought it was a good decision. I am 100% positive that this person did not affix his beret and scarf, light a cigarette and say "Oui, and now, to finish zis work of aht, I will make it... flawed! Zis subvehsin of treaups with intentional flaws is wot will elevate me to ze likes of Van Gogh *sips vermouth* ".

Not to mention that this is also hardly anything very groundbreaking in the first place. You go on a genocide - cops, bounty hunters and the CIA are sent after you. This is as typical as you can get.

Not to mention "it's boring but it's thematic". I don't give a shit how thematic it is. If it's boring, then it fucking sucks, and prancing around it with a flush on your face saying "ITZ THEMATIC, LIKE ART, SO ITZ ALL GUD!" is not going to change this.

And then there's finally this:

Other common nitpicks, such as asking for multiple save slots, calling the RPG system shallow or complaining about the extremely uneven difficulty in the Genocide route, are just silly. Those things are an important part of the game's overall concept, and I'm glad that no compromises were made on that front.

"Common nitpicks" like the game system being crap and like the difficulty being all over the place. Some nitpicks. Which brings me back to the quote I left hanging some time ago:

Which is why, for this review, I'll focus on a mechanical analysis and leave the feels and emotions as a surprise to the player.

Your focus on the mechanical analysis boils down to two things:

1. Telling me this game is 100% based on minigames and this is somehow gud.
2. Apologetics that every single flaw is "thematic" and thereby not a flaw.

On the other hand, when it comes to emotions, I've already learnt that this gaem employs the full gamut of friendship and mania, spanning from "romancing and befriending enemies" through "being a sick freak" and "feeling a little empty inside".

If this is supposed to be your focus on the mechanical analysis and leaving emotions aside, then do forgive me if I assume the game itself is nothing more than a cheap pretentious ride trying to nudge the player into "SEE? DIS IS HOW GOOD/EVIL YOU ARE!" and the actual gameplay is absolutely non-existent, or, to be more precise, the gameplay of the game is made up of other games (never a winning formula).

Which is why, to end this wall of text, I would like to give a counterexample of a game that I think is similar-ish to Undertale's "mission", but which doesn't devolve into idiotic gimmicks for people who hate video games.

That game is E.Y.E. - Divine Cybermancy.

EYE also goes into great lengths to subvert the typical video game formula, it also frequently breaks the fourth wall, it is often absolutely nonsensical, insane, absurd, weird, and also employs tricks that remind you that something very wrong is going down with this game. But even with all that, it does so within the confines of, let's say, good taste and subtlety, and instead of putting you up against memes and tsunderplanes whose function is not at all different from attention whoring "LOOK AT HOW BIG OF AN OUTSIDER I AM", it makes you ask legit questions whether the story you are going through is real, imagined or a tongue in cheek pastische.

Furthermore, EYE is not carried only by an oneiric storytelling gimmick, it is also a solid shooter in the first place that adds some ideas of its own to the shooter with stats formula, and for the most part does it fairly competently. Gee, I wonder why this didn't go up to 97 points in metacritic. Maybe because you can't play it on your fucking iphone while masturbating into a starbucks cup.

Truly, a conundrum for the ages.

That is all I have to say.

 

[Darth Roxor]

 

[Edward The Mediocre]

There's a frontpage?

 

[Irxy]

with 16-bit styled graphics

Oh come on, how is this 16-bit? Genesis/SNES games look much better, this is at best similar to NES/ZX Spectrum era graphics (when most of the art was done by programmers) - and that is 8-bit.

 

[Johannes]

How about an Undertale subforum, seeing now that Underrail's got one also.

 

[Cowboy Moment]

Good one. On that note, you should review Undertale as well, that should really rustle the NeoGAFs and SAs of the internet.

 

[Corporate_Jew_Master]

Got triggered when Undertale was referred to as an RPG.

Take your tumblr game and go, fags.

 

[an Administrator]

That review was low for Codex.
Even Fallout 4 has more rpg elements i dunno why people call this RPG.

 

[evdk]

Got triggered when Undertale was referred to as an RPG.

Take your tumblr game and go, fags.

Well, that's your fault for venturing outside of your GD safe space, isn't it.

 

[Unkillable Cat]

I wish I could say that I took the time to read through the entire thread, but after a few pages I started skimming, because the song remained the same...and I didn't like it. (Cognitive bias FTW. But since that will be the red thread through this post, I ask that you keep that in mind.)

On one hand, I can understand the hater's perspective - they "claim" to know what an RPG is, and this didn't fit their bill, but that of the "other" camp, so haters gotta hate.

On the other hand, I'm not a RPG Codex hardcore zealous fanatic - I'm a gamer first and foremost, and have been so for almost 30 years now. I'm not born or moulded by one genre...I've been through them all, at different intervals. I try to (and tend to) take an all-encompassing perspective of games.

And I'm not being hyperbolic when I'm saying that this game is something to take notice of. I'm not pushing it as the GOTY of 2015, and it's a hard sell for getting anywhere on any "Best Games Ever!" list (for the moment)...but still, it is doing things very few other games even dared to think of, let alone went through with.

If I may dare to try to sell this game to the RPG Codex, I would do it like this: You have a cast of characters in a TV Show. By watching you get introduced to them, get to know them, maybe even possibly learn to care for them...or not. Consider this 'Season 1'. In regular TV show continuity, you had no choice but to play along and watch. Undertale, however, does the same but opts for a different approach. You CAN choose what becomes of them. Welcome to "Season 2'...YOU are in charge what happens to the main cast. The characters you like? They can live. They ones you don't like? Fuck them. Whatever you choose, Undertale has you covered.

Undertale has two primary endings, but in-between there are more than a dozen different endings that depend solely on one fact: Your actions. Very few games take the concept of "Choice & Consequences" and run with it in such a bold fashion as Undertale. You have NO IDEA of knowing which action you may choose will have a beneficial/harmful effect upon your playthrough. You'll just have to 'deal with it' and see your actions through to the end.

For my own personal sake...what attracted me to Undertale was that it offered a different "perspective" from the norm - I decided to buy it so that I could follow this perspective through to the end...a decision I do NOT regret. Likewise, the game offers a complete opposite playthrough, so people can pick and choose how they play the game. I can name SO MANY games that did not offer that chance, yet are immense fun to play. Games that are considered "Must-Play" by a large majority of people identifying as RPG Codexers - yet these same people denounce, ridicule and belittle Undertale, precisely because they HAVEN'T played the game.

I wish I could go into further detail, but unlike some people splerging about Fallout 3 before it was released, I'm 'splerging' about a game I've played through - I know what I'm talking about. Telling too much about Undertale kinda spoils the whole thing - it's a personal odyssey for every person that plays it. "Your experience may wary" is the most basic warning this game deserves.

But what this thread tells me the most - is that many "prestigious Codexers" are little more than self-appointed glittering gems of hatred - seeing every reason to hate upon that which they do not truly understand...and when confronted by a game that eschews the 'basic' concepts of stats and hit points and attack values, and instead guns for the 'core' of role-playing games - choice and consequences - that these same people choose to try to kill it.

To those same people, I just say: "Whatever man...not my problem. But I see your stupidity from over here, so try to keep it down, OK?"

 

[aweigh]

why the fuck isn't this in jrpg

 

[almondblight]

And I'm not being hyperbolic when I'm saying that this game is something to take notice of. I'm not pushing it as the GOTY of 2015, and it's a hard sell for getting anywhere on any "Best Games Ever!" list (for the moment)...but still, it is doing things very few other games even dared to think of, let alone went through with.
...
Undertale has two primary endings, but in-between there are more than a dozen different endings that depend solely on one fact: Your actions. Very few games take the concept of "Choice & Consequences" and run with it in such a bold fashion as Undertale. You have NO IDEA of knowing which action you may choose will have a beneficial/harmful effect upon your playthrough. You'll just have to 'deal with it' and see your actions through to the end.

Sure, then gives us examples of this awesomeness. Some of us listened to the praise here, tried out the demo, didn't see anything interesting, looked at walkthroughs and conversations players were having about the game, and still couldn't figure out what was great about it. The extent of the C&C I've found (other than the endless grinding genocide run) seemed to be "kill X in the game, and later Y will give you a flavor dialogue for killing X" or "Tell your cow-mother-thing you like caramel on your first play through, and cow-mother-thing will know you like caramel on your second playthrough."

Outside of the pacifist ending/grindy as hell genocide ending, what are some examples of the bold uses of C&C that Undertale does? Because every time people ask this question, we get a "it's just so super awesome trust me I can't name a single thing because it would ruin it for you"....

I wish I could go into further detail, but unlike some people splerging about Fallout 3 before it was released, I'm 'splerging' about a game I've played through - I know what I'm talking about. Telling too much about Undertale kinda spoils the whole thing - it's a personal odyssey for every person that plays it. "Your experience may wary" is the most basic warning this game deserves.

Yeah...kind of like that.

Yeah, maybe some people here irrationally hate the game. But several of us took the recommendations of the people here to heart, tried out the demo, thought it was fairly lackluster, looked into all of the C&C in the game, saw that most of it looked like superficial flavor texts, asked the fans to give an example of why it's so great and got a mix of "we can't or it will spoil it for you just buy the game it's great trust me" and "you tryhard edgelords are stuck in the past and just can't open your mind to good games."

If fans are really incapable of given us any examples of why this game is great, they really shouldn't be surprised that they aren't able to convince people. Especially people who've actually tried out the game, tried to research why people are fawning over it, and haven't been able to come to any conclusion other than "the emperor has no clothes."