Review RPG Codex Review: Wasteland 2

[St. Toxic]

WL2 isn't better than my personal favorite game, and my personal favorite game isn't perfect, which makes WL2 an outright horrible experience.

 

[Vault Dweller]

Fallout? Which didn't exactly have a stellar character system to begin with, which should give you an indication of how bad WL2's character system is.

First, I didn't say 'best system evar'. I said 'best I've seen in years', which doesn't go back 17 years. Second, if not for the perks and traits, SPECIAL would have been kinda mediocre. Stats that didn't have much flexibility in terms of different builds. Way too many useless skills and absolutely no reasons to invest in a skill beyond a certain point as you'd hit 95% THC even when aiming for the eyes fairly quickly.

I believe someone did a calculation and found maxing combat initiative gave you three times as many turns as a character with low combat initiative. A system with such choices as 'Would you like to be three times more awesome or not?' isn't a very good system. And this is not even including the stats that increase action points, which effectively give you even more turns to be awesome.

I said that the foundation was good, all it needs is some tweaks (which is what you're talking about).

Also no perks/feats, a billion skills just to open a container, one assault rifle to rule them all, etc.

While the assault rifle was the best, the other weapons weren't that far behind. I loved my pistol and SMG guys. With the right builds (and that's where the system shines) they were kicking ass, which is all I care about.

 

[Vault Dweller]

It's not about comparing it to other games. It's about analysis of an RPG system. I cannot understand how a shallow system can be solid. The game is released, you know, what do you mean by "tweaking" anyway? Mods?

It is my understanding that inXile continues to support the game and is looking into the balance issues. So, like I said, the foundation is rock-solid (i.e. it's not a bloated/broken system like, say, Arcanum's). All it needs is some fine-tuning.

IMHO the stats/skills poorly connect with each other and that is not solid.

This is something you can tweak in 30 min. At least that's how long it would take us to change AoD stat/skills relationship.

Even in your review, you mention a low STR brute force character, which should be an obvious flaw to anyone thinking for 5 minutes. Same for most of the stats/skills. They feel underdeveloped and not well thought out. As a reviewer one can and should draw from the knowledge of other game of the same genre.

I disagree.

First, there is always some kind of duplication between stats and skills. Most skills increase your THC, which is what Dex does. But we say 'no, silly, it's your skill with a particular weapon, so you do need a special skill'. The main problem with the skill is its name - brute force. I see it as an ability to *apply* force, which doesn't require super strength, but does require experience and understanding of basic mechanical principles. Strength should have influenced it but not replaced.

Second, underdeveloped & not well thought through - not the case at all. The list of derrived stats is a thing of beauty. Most skills are fairly useful and well implemented. The problem is the content. Replace random loot with handcrafted stuff and you will fix 50% of all issues, if not 90.

I'd make grenades and launchers a skill, make ammo rare and different, make crates all about ammo and supplies, safes about good weapons and armor (this lockpicking is about keeping well supplied, safe cracking is about better gear), traps - the same, alarm - a factor when you're sneaking, a non-issue if you killed everyone.

 

[Pope Amole II]

While the assault rifle was the best, the other weapons weren't that far behind. I loved my pistol and SMG guys. With the right builds (and that's where the system shines) they were kicking ass, which is all I care about.

Actually, no, they were not. No offense, but all the data was already analyzed by some guy called ehrgeix. Here's his mega-thread on the inxile forums.

It clearly shows that handguns are three times less effective than assault rifle guys and smg guys can do only 2/3rds of what an assault rifle can do. And note that, IIRC, it's unadjusted for armor penetration (which means that SMGs are actually either 10 or 20% works - I don't remember the exact penalty incurred). Now, for the simplicity I was looking only at the tier-6 weapons and there are some differences on lower tiers but, in the long run, they're both inferior.

 

[Invictus]

Definetly on board making the container fit the loot (like having ammo boxes beign the main source of ammo besides looting corpses, weaponlockers having 2 or 3 different weapon types, and the random loot and the odd ammo cache coming from chests and diging) but definetly leave the random loot withing those parameters; while hand placed loot is good if done properly it leads to abusing the system by rushing to get the 3nd best sword in the game in the first 20 minutes

 

[Vault Dweller]

Damage per AP is an idiotic concept (DPS' retarded brother).

I don't have time to load my save, but iirc, I could fire 3 times with a pistol with almost 40% chance to score a critical. Didn't seem weak at all. My SMG guy was so effective that I wouldn't even think of playing without one (when I decide to replay it).

 

[Major_Blackhart]

I gotta sit down and play this sometime.

 

[Athelas]

First, I didn't say 'best system evar'.

Good, cause I would've mentioned Jagged Alliance 2's system then.

Stats that didn't have much flexibility in terms of different builds. Way too many useless skills and absolutely no reasons to invest in a skill beyond a certain point as you'd hit 95% THC even when aiming for the eyes fairly quickly.

Sounds like WL2's character system to me. Getting the most action points and skill points in Fallout is a no-brainer. Getting the most action points, skill points and combat initiative in Wasteland 2 is also a no-brainer. Anything else is an afterthought.

I said that the foundation was good, all it needs is some tweaks (which is what you're talking about).

I think that's where we differ in opinion. I think it needs a massive overhaul or better yet, a new system made from scratch.

Damage per AP is an idiotic concept (DPS' retarded brother).

I don't have time to load my save, but iirc, I could fire 3 times with a pistol with almost 40% chance to score a critical. Didn't seem weak at all. My SMG guy was so effective that I wouldn't even think of playing without one (when I decide to replay it).

I see you're not a man of science.

 

[Carrion]

It clearly shows that handguns are three times less effective than assault rifle guys and smg guys can do only 2/3rds of what an assault rifle can do.

Then again, is this really a problem outside the realm of Josh Sawyer? Personally I don't think that a maxed out pistol guy should be able to deal as much damage as someone with, say, a fucking machine gun, but there are other factors to combat than just damage. Pistols and SMGs still make for excellent secondary weapons due to their low AP cost (having a higher damage/AP rate isn't of much use if you don't have enough AP to take the shot in the first place), easily available ammunition and a lack of close range penalties, so they're not useless by any means.

One thing that I would've wanted to see was some real use for silenced weapons (where is my stealth?), or places where you would've needed to leave your heavy gear behind but maybe could've sneaked in a small weapon in your underpants or something. Those are examples of cases where pistols and SMGs might be a better choice than other weapons, but as it is, you're probably better off picking something else as your primary weapon.

 

[jagged-jimmy]

IMHO the stats/skills poorly connect with each other and that is not solid.

This is something you can tweak in 30 min. At least that's how long it would take us to change AoD stat/skills relationship.

You will have to re-balance the stats/skill checks. Like introducing a "hard" wall, which requires min STR and a certain lvl of brute force.
I.e. when adding dependencies, you have to add different levels of stat/skill combinations. Same for weapons - like needing 6+ Awareness AND 10 weapon skill to have 100% headshot.

Also i am having the feeling that we don't discuss the game, but how it can be improved (ex. your last post). That's not really a solid foundation for a review. Anyway, review is out, so whatever. We can agree to have different opinions.

 

[tuluse]

Actually, no, they were not. No offense, but all the data was already analyzed by some guy called ehrgeix. Here's his mega-thread on the inxile forums.

It clearly shows that handguns are three times less effective than assault rifle guys and smg guys can do only 2/3rds of what an assault rifle can do. And note that, IIRC, it's unadjusted for armor penetration (which means that SMGs are actually either 10 or 20% works - I don't remember the exact penalty incurred). Now, for the simplicity I was looking only at the tier-6 weapons and there are some differences on lower tiers but, in the long run, they're both inferior.

Pistols let you spread damage to more targets. This is somewhat niche, but it is a useful trait.

 

[Darth Roxor]

Pistols let you spread damage to more targets. This is somewhat niche, but it is a useful trait.

See, it would be useful in a game that wasn't all about focus-firing targets, which is exactly what wl2 is aboot. As it is now, I'd say pistols are really the only gun class in the game that is outright terrible. Everything else works, but pistols really stay terrible from start to finish. Shotties are also very baed for a longer while, but at least they get better once you grab a spaz/jackhammer.

 

[Invictus]

I think one of the best parts of the game is that almost any combat build is viable, of course the. AR is King but the other weapons have their place too; you could make a SMG only crew and other than the ammo you could be set. This is the difference between good design with clear "best" choices but the freedom to pick and choose according to your style

 

[Darkzone]

Damage per AP is an idiotic concept (DPS' retarded brother).

I don't have time to load my save, but iirc, I could fire 3 times with a pistol with almost 40% chance to score a critical. Didn't seem weak at all. My SMG guy was so effective that I wouldn't even think of playing without one (when I decide to replay it).

I see you're not a man of science.

Evil answer, but true.

 

[felipepepe]

WL2 should be compared to WL and 'old-school' games since it never aimed to emulate Fallout or JA2.

What's your opinion on Fargo's insane hype machine and debatable promises, such as "If you close your eyes, it's like you're playing Fallout 3" ? Hate the game, not the player?

 

[Vault Dweller]

WL2 should be compared to WL and 'old-school' games since it never aimed to emulate Fallout or JA2.

What's your opinion on Fargo's insane hype machine and debatable promises, such as "If you close your eyes, it's like you're playing Fallout 3" ? Hate the game, not the player?

Pretty much. Fargo likes to hype and oversell. We all know that. However, while Bethesda likes to make shit up (promise shit that's not in the game or set up quests/events to impress journalists), what Fargo says falls under 'his opinion'. I didn't read every interview but I think that all examples he listed are in the game, including the execution mentioned in the article. I'm under the impression that Fargo did deliver on his promises.

I blame the journalist for not asking 'what exactly do you mean by that?' as it can mean just about anything (like it's isometric and turn-based).

 

[Athelas]

WL2 should be compared to WL and 'old-school' games since it never aimed to emulate Fallout or JA2.

What's your opinion on Fargo's insane hype machine and debatable promises, such as "If you close your eyes, it's like you're playing Fallout 3" ? Hate the game, not the player?

That statement is true, though. If you close your eyes, you wouldn't be able to see that the game you're playing is not Fallout 3.

 

[FeelTheRads]

If you cover your ears it's like listening to Mozart.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LDZX4ooRsWs

 

[Davaris]

Fargo is the man.

 

[Invictus]

I rather take a grandtsanding Fargo with a little bullshit sprinkled into his pitches than a fun sucking vacum like Sawyer obssesed with degeneracy, balance and usefull skills who might deliver a beautiful but sterile and uterly "safe" game like Pillars

 

[Athelas]

One of those isn't a game designer.

 

[Neckbeard Shitlord]

Pretty much. Fargo likes to hype and oversell. We all know that. However, while Bethesda likes to make shit up (promise shit that's not in the game or set up quests/events to impress journalists), what Fargo says falls under 'his opinion'. I didn't read every interview but I think that all examples he listed are in the game, including the execution mentioned in the article. I'm under the impression that Fargo did deliver on his promises.

I blame the journalist for not asking 'what exactly do you mean by that?' as it can mean just about anything (like it's isometric and turn-based).

Exactly. Fargo just does his job well. He does not make up BS like Bethesda or Molyneaux.

I also think he is trying to make the kind of games hardcore RPG fans want. I think he has succeeded pretty well with WL 2. I just think it could have better combat, that's the main issue. That is fixable, though, and generally RPGs that don't use a premade system like DnD don't have amazing combat in their first iteration.

Bethesda and most other devs are very obviously trying to trick old school gamers into buying something that's clearly not made for you. Hey guys we have all the hardcore you'll ever need. Hardcore elf porn amirite.

I cant believe Im seeing someone defending Shadowrun Returns while criticizing Wasteland 2. SRR has the choice & consequence and open-worldness of a 10 years old RPGMaker weekend project. The only thing that elevates it a little bit above mediocreness is its writing. Even the old Genesis and SNES versions are better than Returns. All the while Wasteland has C&C and oprn-worldness and interactivity in spades, far from being the cloth canvas that is Returns environments. Even with all its flaws, Wasteland 2 is a really good RPG. Give it a couple more patches.

Is this really the Codex ? What's next, saying WL2 should have perfect combat and ditch the C&C and openess and environment interactivity ?

Shame on you bros.

If you backed Shadowrun Returns in the first place, you lose your hardcore RPG card as far as I am concerned. Maybe your mancard as well.

 

[haraw]

About Fallout's music, there is this interview:

Michael: In an interview, Timothy Cain [creator of the Fallout series] said that he likes dark gloomy music and is a big fan of Aphex Twin. Some Fallout compositions are quite similar to work by Aphex Twin - were you influenced by Timothy's tastes?

Mark: When Interplay was thinking of using me for the game, they sent over some music that they liked and wanted me to do something similar as a demo. The CD they sent me had no titles or artists’ names, just a few pieces of unidentified music. I gave Interplay what they wanted and I think they must have used some of my demo in the final game. At the time, I wasn’t familiar with the work of Aphex Twin. To me, it was just my interpretation of what Interplay asked for.

Full interview: http://www.game-ost.com/articles.php?id=24&action=view

And not to derail this thread too much: nice review, VD.

 

[Morkar Left]

The CD they sent me had no titles or artists’ names, just a few pieces of unidentified music.

Pirate scum!

 

[ghostdog]

What's your opinion on Fargo's insane hype machine and debatable promises, such as "If you close your eyes, it's like you're playing Fallout 3" ? Hate the game, not the player?

This just isn't true. W2 is much better than Fallout 3. There's no comparison really.


Oh wait, did he actually mean ...?


Nah... no way he meant that. No way man.

Spoiler