Review RPG Codex Review: Wasteland 2

[Jaesun]

So THAT is Drog's new alt.

 

[Nikaido]

Mark Morgan is only as good as the artists he's ripping off. Fallout's OST was good because it ripped off Aphex Twin. I don't know who he ripped off for WL2 but he clearly picked the wrong target.

But I've got at's entire discography, and the songs aren't nearly as recognizable as fo ost.

And this one isn't? (not from AT, but it's not like Morgan stopped at AT when it came to plagiarizing.)


I mean, if you were hearing it now without the provided context, you'd be mistaking it for the actual FO track.
Also, Grass from AT is vastly superior to the copy. The only reason why you think Fallout's ost is more "recognizable" is the time you sunk into the game and emotional investment from associating the tracks with the experience of playing the game. I seriously doubt you would have felt that way if you had listened to Fallout's OST on its own, without having played the game ever. A lot of game OST benefit from the impact of being imprinted into your memory with the association of the gameplay, the experience, atmosphere built not only through the OST itself but writing, visuals etc. This is not something you can consciously dissociate. Long after you played the game, the music will still act as a trigger to these moments experienced. That is something music tends to do, even outside of games, or movies, for example, the way you will experience music you used to listen to, decades later, depending on the mood that was imprinted at the time. The happier or the more depressed (both extremes will have the same degree of impact) you felt, the stronger that memory.

 

[Curious_Tongue]

***

Thanks eric. I've given your post my first ever brofist.

You broke the seal.

 

[Infinitron]

Looking forward to seeing this well written piece added to the review.

I think you've just ensured that we never will.

eric_s I don't think it's really fair to compare a piece of combat music (something Morgan has never been particularly known for) from WL2 with an ambient theme from Fallout.

 

[Excommunicator]

Feel free to behave like an unprofessional crybaby, I won't stop you

 

[Infinitron]

https://twitter.com/rangerkeenan/status/535988395307466752

 

[Darth Roxor]

you are easily amused, infinitron

 

[St. Toxic]

I mean, if you were hearing it now without the provided context, you'd be mistaking it for the actual FO track.

No way, it's way too slow. Vats of goo had way more going for it.

Also, Grass from AT is vastly superior to the copy.

Objectively? Please. It's hard to even compare it to the masterpiece L.A Boneyard.

The only reason why you think Fallout's ost is bla bla bla bla bla and on and on and on.

No, you're just butthurt. Probably also jealous of Morgan's genius.

 

[Infinitron]

you are easily amused, infinitron

I'm a pretty mellow guy.

That was the lead designer of Wasteland 2, though. If it was just some random dude, it wouldn't have been as amusing, I think.

 

[eric__s]

Mark Morgan is only as good as the artists he's ripping off. Fallout's OST was good because it ripped off Aphex Twin. I don't know who he ripped off for WL2 but he clearly picked the wrong target.

I don't know if this is a fair statement. I'm aware of the similarities between songs but we don't know the context or circumstances of their use. Game development can be a murky process. If these were placeholders that were used before he could make something else or he was told to make music like Aphex Twin and never finished it, that changes the context completely. It's not professional, but it doesn't necessarily reflect on Mark Morgan himself. Unless we can certify that it was his intent to plagiarize and this isn't some kind of managerial oversight, I don't know if I can agree.

eric_s I don't think it's really fair to compare a piece of combat music (something Morgan has never been particularly known for) from WL2 with an ambient theme from Fallout.

I didn't compare the Wasteland song from any track from Fallout. I said I felt like I'd heard it in many other games.

 

[Infinitron]

I didn't compare the Wasteland song from any track from Fallout. I said I felt like I'd heard it in many other games.

...right after saying you didn't feel the same way about tracks from Fallout.

FWIW, I agree with you that FO's tracks were particularly distinctive, but I also think that's a Fallout-specific thing, not an "old Morgan" vs "new Morgan" thing. His tracks from PS:T and other games he made back in the 90s aren't super-duper-memorable either (though all are quite recognizably Morgany).

 

[eric__s]

I didn't compare the Wasteland song from any track from Fallout. I said I felt like I'd heard it in many other games.

...right after saying you didn't feel the same way about tracks from Fallout.

FWIW, I agree with you that FO's tracks were particularly distinctive, but I also think that's a Fallout-specific thing, not an "old Morgan" vs "new Morgan" thing. His tracks from PS:T and other games he made back in the 90s aren't super-duper-memorable either (though all are quite recognizably Morgany).

I thought you were confusing one of Nikaido's posts with mine, a direct track-to-track comparison. Sorry. I think my comparison was appropriate though, since I was comparing their character, their distinction from other music. Even though I didn't remember that song, it stood out the most to me from all the other songs on the soundtrack.

 

[Carrion]

His tracks from PS:T and other games he made back in the 90s aren't super-duper-memorable

PS:T music is definitely super-duper-memorable.

 

[Darkzone]

Yes and Alternative 3 (1977) was a sci-fi electronic rip off of Kenneth Anger's Lucifer rising from 1972. If want to go this way.
One limited mind say's some is ripping some one off. A more intelligent mind says everyone is ripping some one off, back to the first source.
One mind that surpasses the first two says music (information) is a virus, which infects certain receptive minds and mutates (transforms) and reproduces to infect others.
I personaly like Morgan's music and i think that W2 soundtrack is not so memorable, but because of this perhaps even better, than Fallout Ost. But this in nothing more then a opinion, which also applies to the opposite.

 

[Infinitron]

His tracks from PS:T and other games he made back in the 90s aren't super-duper-memorable

PS:T music is definitely super-duper-memorable.

It's memorable (all of his music is), but is it as distinctive as Fallout's? Not really. And the combat music is pretty banal (hence my earlier remark).

Here's a discussion I had about this with somebody else: http://www.rpgcodex.net/forums/inde...g-music-for-fallout.93640/page-3#post-3439757

 

[Zeronet]

I thought the game fell apart in California completely before picking up again, 2nd half of the game has really varied levels of quality and polish. The state of Santa Fe 'base' in particular was disappointing, i'm still not over the whole armor/energy weapons thing and especially how random vendors sell and minor NPCs give out high tech gear as quest rewards with no mention of how they got them and keep them repaired.

Still, i enjoyed what i played, had to stop because of bugs and haven't picked it up again, ended up spoiling myself on youtubes. Good, not great is how i'd describe it, not the fallout 1/2-quality game i was perhaps naively (considering the budget) hoping for.

 

[Rake]

His tracks from PS:T and other games he made back in the 90s aren't super-duper-memorable

PS:T music is definitely super-duper-memorable.

It's memorable (all of his music is), but is it as distinctive as Fallout's? Not really. And the combat music is pretty banal (hence my earlier remark).

Here's a discussion I had about this with somebody else: http://www.rpgcodex.net/forums/inde...g-music-for-fallout.93640/page-3#post-3439757

While PST music is more hit and miss, i like the hit parts better than Fallout's

 

[jagged-jimmy]

Review is way too favorable. While i think, we should hold the game in high regards, for being desinged as true RPG and the kickstarter glimmer of hope, that brought us more games to play - we also should be honest to ourselves about the overall quality.

1. Stats and Skills are "solid foundation". What, for WL 3? Because in this game the system is pretty simple and there are no requirements/checks/dependecies between stats/skills/gameworld.
2. Difficulty level should've been mentioned. Because on Seasoned there are no difficult fights. So raving about having to reload and rethink "strategy" is questionable. Add dumb AI to the mix and combat is pretty mediocre.
3. Detrap/open random junk loot crates for a big chunk of gameplay is not a very good skill usage design.
4. Was mentioned before, but the technical side of things was bad.

Still i enjoyed the game more than anything we had in recent years - tells you how starved the market is. So while it's fine to be enthusiastic about the game, we should not forget what truly is. Especially while the reviewer is about to release something like that.

 

[Vault Dweller]

Review is way too favorable. While i think, we should hold the game in high regards, for being desinged as true RPG and the kickstarter glimmer of hope, that brought us more games to play - we also should be honest to ourselves about the overall quality.

1. Stats and Skills are "solid foundation". What, for WL 3? Because in this game the system is pretty simple and there are no requirements/checks/dependecies between stats/skills/gameworld.
2. Difficulty level should've been mentioned. Because on Seasoned there are no difficult fights. So raving about having to reload and rethink "strategy" is questionable. Add dumb AI to the mix and combat is pretty mediocre.
3. Detrap/open random junk loot crates for a big chunk of gameplay is not a very good skill usage design.
4. Was mentioned before, but the technical side of things was bad.

Still i enjoyed the game more than anything we had in recent years - tells you how starved the market is. So while it's fine to be enthusiastic about the game, we should not forget what truly is. Especially while the reviewer is about to release something like that.

While it is acceptable to complain on forums that a game failed to meet your own standards (either an ideal RPG that doesn't exist or your favorite RPG), it's not acceptable to do the same in a review. When I criticized Oblivion, I didn't compare it to Fallout and Planescape. I compared it to Daggerfall and Morrowind, two games made by the same company. WL2 should be compared to WL and 'old-school' games since it never aimed to emulate Fallout or JA2.

First and foremost, I did enjoy the game. I did see the flaws but it would be dishonest to pop in my and focus on the flaws after enjoying the game immensely. I listed and explained the flaws to create a more or less accurate picture and avoid misleading people.

As for what you mentioned,

1. The character system is very good. The best I've seen in years. IF inXile continue tweaking it, it will become a great system. All it needs is a few minor tweaks, hence the foundation comment.

2. Difficulty on Seasoned? A valid comment. I always play on Hard or Very Hard because it's the new Normal and anything below is easy. I should have clarified it.

3. The problem is random loot, which was mentioned. Replace it with proper loot and the system will work just fine.

4. I never mention the technical side unless it's really bad. I don't think I had a single crash or experienced any significant bugs. All in all, it was in a pretty good state, although California was less polished.

 

[Athelas]

The character system is very good. The best I've seen in years.

 

[Vault Dweller]

Name a better one.

 

[Athelas]

Fallout? Which didn't exactly have a stellar character system to begin with, which should give you an indication of how bad WL2's character system is.

I believe someone did a calculation and found maxing combat initiative gave you three times as many turns as a character with low combat initiative. A system with such choices as 'Would you like to be three times more awesome or not?' isn't a very good system. And this is not even including the stats that increase action points, which effectively give you even more turns to be awesome.

Also no perks/feats, a billion skills just to open a container, one assault rifle to rule them all, etc.

Of course, this is hardly a deal-breaker. Plenty of great RPG's didn't have great character systems.

 

[jagged-jimmy]

While it is acceptable to complain on forums that a game failed to meet your own standards (either an ideal RPG that doesn't exist or your favorite RPG), it's not acceptable to do the same in a review. When I criticized Oblivion, I didn't compare it to Fallout and Planescape. I compared it to Daggerfall and Morrowind, two games made by the same company. WL2 should be compared to WL and 'old-school' games since it never aimed to emulate Fallout or JA2.

It's not about comparing it to other games. It's about analysis of an RPG system. I cannot understand how a shallow system can be solid. The game is released, you know, what do you mean by "tweaking" anyway? Mods?

IMHO the stats/skills poorly connect with each other and that is not solid. Even in your review, you mention a low STR brute force character, which should be an obvious flaw to anyone thinking for 5 minutes. Same for most of the stats/skills. They feel underdeveloped and not well thought out. As a reviewer one can and should draw from the knowledge of other game of the same genre.

The way you say it, we should not complain about simple character system in DA:O, because it's our own fault we are expecting a more complex character development.
And thus every review will end up as "good for what it is" / "compared to the original".

 

[Silva]

I cant believe Im seeing someone defending Shadowrun Returns while criticizing Wasteland 2. SRR has the choice & consequence and open-worldness of a 10 years old RPGMaker weekend project. The only thing that elevates it a little bit above mediocreness is its writing. Even the old Genesis and SNES versions are better than Returns. All the while Wasteland has C&C and oprn-worldness and interactivity in spades, far from being the cloth canvas that is Returns environments. Even with all its flaws, Wasteland 2 is a really good RPG. Give it a couple more patches.

Is this really the Codex ? What's next, saying WL2 should have perfect combat and ditch the C&C and openess and environment interactivity ?

Shame on you bros.

 

[Monocause]

Is this really the Codex ?

If it features people lambasting their own community in order to dramatise their postings - yes, that is the only defining, unique feature of the Codex, therefore this is the Codex. Everything else is consistently found on other web communities, like RPGWatch or Stormfront.