Review RPG Codex Review: Wasteland 2

[Infinitron]

http://www.irontowerstudio.com/forum/index.php/topic,2447.360.html

An unsurprisingly horrible "review" from someone who seemingly lost all taste for actual quality considerations, facts and actual truth and just enjoyed a superficial laughable schlock game on a superficial level.

In addition to that there are several factually incorrect statements about game mechanics and stats that reveal someone didnt really pay much attention to how the game actually works while he did his one single superficial playthrough.

- You pump your Awareness to get max damage with weapons? Awareness? (just one of the bigger examples)

On top of that there are several ludicrous statements about quality of writing, which uses a few examples of most retarded and idiotic quests from the game but never really discusses whats actually happening in them, instead just delivering some vacuous generalistic statements about how "good the game is".

Then there is a mention of the Canyon that doesnt fail to mention how it is so better then the rest of the game. But doesnt mention any of its problems.
And some nebulous declaration that California is like a great part of the game - which is just laughable - but also doesnt say why that would be at all.


All in all, another pointless "article" made to support of some specific emotional engagement level, which is what game reviews have come to these days.

 

[Vault Dweller]

Isn't the logical conclusion to this way of thinking that we should not have low/no-magic guns combat for party RPGs because they cannot be made more than decently fun?

Only if fun = a shitload of combat options.

Can anyone actually explain why single shot/burst/aimed plus different ammo and grenades can't possibly be fun?

So then we go into a loop? Game didn't make the options matter so they don't matter?

Options should fit the overall design. Better design can accommodate more options (i.e. tactical combat in a tactical environment), more options don't make better design by default.

That's the point that I'm trying to make. WL2 doesn't offer you tactical combat. It offers you a "fairly straightforward" combat that works.

The day has come. VD is countering my arguments with the PoE-threads worst simulationist offenders. Tell me, VD, if the problem with guns isn't what you've said so far (i.e. it's impossibruh to add tactical variety to gunplay) but rather that "guns just don't work that way", how come you're not mad that a single shot doesn't eliminate opponents? Even if you get shot in the arm, or hell just a graze, IRL, you're probably down for the count.

That's right, because games turn reality into systems so we can have fun. There are a ton of ways to systemize gun combat options and lots of games have done it.

Realism is important but shouldn't get in the way of game design. Insta-kill (or insta-out of commission with a gut wound) isn't good design. Neither is some stupid shit that Obsidian did with pistols in AP.

I'm trying to have a serious discussion here. I'm not saying that I know better. I'm asking what else is possible, yet you're dodging my question like a ninja.

So, let me ask you again. My character is armed with a pistol. He goes against 3 evil doers. What are his combat options?

 

[FeelTheRads]

That's the point that I'm trying to make. WL2 doesn't offer you tactical combat. It offers you a "fairly straightforward" combat that works.

Well, it really sounds like you're saying that it just can't be done.
But OK, the others are saying that the game should offer more. More than, say "good for what it is".

 

[Vault Dweller]

I'm not saying that it can't be done. I'm not sure how it should be done in a game like Wasteland 2. Simply adding more options wouldn't make it better. Scraping the system and developing a fully blown tactical combat system would but that wasn't the goal (afaik) or the scope.

 

[Grunker]

Realism is important but shouldn't get in the way of game design. Insta-kill (or insta-out of commission with a gut wound) isn't good design. Neither is some stupid shit that Obsidian did with pistols in AP.

And neither is tactically devoid, formulaic combat! Glad to see we agree!

I'm asking what else is possible, yet you're dodging my question like a ninja.

Yeah, all that dodging I've doing answering that question in three different posts:

http://www.rpgcodex.net/forums/inde...-review-wasteland-2.95441/page-5#post-3605447

http://www.rpgcodex.net/forums/inde...-review-wasteland-2.95441/page-5#post-3605456

http://www.rpgcodex.net/forums/inde...-review-wasteland-2.95441/page-5#post-3605458

So, let me ask you again. My character is armed with a pistol. He goes against 3 evil doers. What are his combat options?

Whatever the designer wants them to be. Cinematic gun-fu options a la the ones I've described? A huge selection of ammo types that do different things in different scenarios? Activated abilities a la SRR? Hit location consideration? Different arsenal for different encounters?

I could go on. The sky's the limit in RPG design. Only thing limiting you is your own imagination. Which apparantly is a low ceiling judging by "pistols just have single-shot and burst, and I can't for the life of me figure out a way to do anything else."

 

[Grunker]

I'm not saying that it can't be done. I'm not sure how it should be done in a game like Wasteland 2. Simply adding more options wouldn't make it better. Scraping the system and developing a fully blown tactical combat system would but that wasn't the goal (afaik) or the scope.

This is a fuck-hueg moving of the goalposts. Like, massive. You've just gone from saying "guns can't be done in other ways" to "Wasteland 2 development team didn't have time to do it any other way."

I'd agree that development was pressured and they probably focused on other things. That's a totally reasonable statement. However if the truth is they put focus into other departments than combat, then perhaps combat shouldn't make up 70% of your time spent in the game.

 

[Vault Dweller]

sigh

First, here is my post from page 6:

"The way I see it with guns you have 2 attack types: single shot and burst. Single shot can be split in 3 attacks: fast shot if you have high THC (he pistolero option), normal shot, and aimed shot to increase THC. Burst can be split in 2: short and long. Plus aimed shots (depending on the overall design). That's about it. Maybe run and gun (not in a retarded XCOM way), although I can't say that I see a point. Am I missing something?"

As you can see (I hope), it mentions ammo and aimed attacks. The review also mentions that the universal ammo was a missed opportunity.

Second, from the start of this discussion, I kept fully blown tactical systems like JA2 and SS apart from more limited RPG systems. So, theoretically, yes, it's possible to develop a state of the art tac system for WL2 or any other RPG. All you need time and money. This isn't to say that the poor WL2 team didn't have time. This is to say that it's not how it's done, much like you won't see Thief's stealth in an RPG. Is it possible? You betcha. Will you ever see it? Nope.

 

[Darth Roxor]

I'm not saying that it can't be done. I'm not sure how it should be done in a game like Wasteland 2.

I just want to say one word to you, just one word: Plastics Flashbangs.

 

[Vault Dweller]

Flashbangs. Ok. Let's look at it from the design perspective.

Before we start though I want to mention something I forgot to mention in the review (my bad). Rocket launchers and grenades are overkill. They don't require a skill, 100% accurate, and do a shitload of damage. Basically, it's a cheatmode.

Back to flashbangs. I'm facing 4 enemies, I throw a stun grenade, they pass out, the end? Or maybe half of them pass out because the other 2 are sturdy lads. It's even more OP than an actual grenade which may fail to kill them. Last, if I have good grenades that *will* kill them for sure, why would I use a stun grenade in a game like Wasteland 2?

 

[Grunker]

stuff

if you are going to make a game with lots of combat you should probably see to it that that combat is fairly fun

controversial, i know

 

[tuluse]

The day has come. VD is countering my arguments with the PoE-threads worst simulationist offenders. Tell me, VD, if the problem with guns isn't what you've said so far (i.e. it's impossibruh to add tactical variety to gunplay) but rather that "guns just don't work that way", how come you're not mad that a single shot doesn't eliminate opponents? Even if you get shot in the arm, or hell just a graze, IRL, you're probably down for the count.

This isn't really true, but if you wanted to make realistic tactical combat, it would be more about suppression and maneuvering to get a clear shot than sniping people from behind cover.

(sort of like JA2 is)

 

[Kem0sabe]

http://www.irontowerstudio.com/forum/index.php/topic,2447.360.html

An unsurprisingly horrible "review" from someone who seemingly lost all taste for actual quality considerations, facts and actual truth and just enjoyed a superficial laughable schlock game on a superficial level.

In addition to that there are several factually incorrect statements about game mechanics and stats that reveal someone didnt really pay much attention to how the game actually works while he did his one single superficial playthrough.

- You pump your Awareness to get max damage with weapons? Awareness? (just one of the bigger examples)

On top of that there are several ludicrous statements about quality of writing, which uses a few examples of most retarded and idiotic quests from the game but never really discusses whats actually happening in them, instead just delivering some vacuous generalistic statements about how "good the game is".

Then there is a mention of the Canyon that doesnt fail to mention how it is so better then the rest of the game. But doesnt mention any of its problems.
And some nebulous declaration that California is like a great part of the game - which is just laughable - but also doesnt say why that would be at all.


All in all, another pointless "article" made to support of some specific emotional engagement level, which is what game reviews have come to these days.

I'm surprised Hiver didnt do some photoshops on his post.

Also, i see all of this as pre-design work for VD's scifi gun centric RPG

 

[Vault Dweller]

stuff

if you are going to make a game with lots of combat you should probably see to it that that combat is fairly fun

controversial, i know

But for me it was "fairly fun". You know me well enough, Grunker. I wouldn't write this review if I didn't think the game (including combat) was fun.

 

[Grunker]

stuff

if you are going to make a game with lots of combat you should probably see to it that that combat is fairly fun

controversial, i know

But for me it was "fairly fun". You know me well enough, Grunker. I wouldn't write this review if I didn't think the game (including combat) was fun.

I suppose. I just really don't think of this as controversial or something extreme. Small subsystems like a bit of choice in the combat isn't that much. I understand why I can't have a full-fledged tactical combat system, though I think the game should have less combat since it made that concession. I just can't for the life of me understand the choice to go with nothing.

 

[Stompa]

Flashbangs. Ok. Let's look at it from the design perspective.

Before we start though I want to mention something I forgot to mention in the review (my bad). Rocket launchers and grenades are overkill. They don't require a skill, 100% accurate, and do a shitload of damage. Basically, it's a cheatmode.

Back to flashbangs. I'm facing 4 enemies, I throw a stun grenade, they pass out, the end? Or maybe half of them pass out because the other 2 are sturdy lads. It's even more OP than an actual grenade which may fail to kill them. Last, if I have good grenades that *will* kill them for sure, why would I use a stun grenade in a game like Wasteland 2?

Why not make them apply a debuff then? -% THC or reducing Awareness, pretty much like every other condition works already (even Stunned doesn't disable a character). That would make them definitely worth using.

 

[Darth Roxor]

Back to flashbangs. I'm facing 4 enemies, I throw a stun grenade, they pass out, the end?

I certainly am surprised that you can't think of anything else.

- To make it non-OP, make the grenades have a chance of applying the effect (to simulate some sort of a resist check, which Wasteland also doesn't have, and which is very hue), like, say, 75%.
- Then, instead of just knocking a dude out for good, just reduce his AP by, say, 5-10, also random. The number could also be adjusted properly. Or could make it a progression just like it already has TNT -> Pipebomb -> Grenade.
- Smaller AoE than a normal grenade.

So now you are faced with a choice (with consequence!). As we know, explosives aren't very common, they tend to weigh a lot and are costly. COMBAT BEGINS!!! You notice one dude that is a high-threat target, like a rocketeer for instance. You know you won't be able to waste him easily (if at all) in just one turn, and his one rocket can turn your dudes into BBQ. Even throwing a normal grenade will not be assured to waste him. Could blast him with a bazooka, but that's overkill as fuck. But you are certain that if you hold out just 1 turn, you kung-fu jihad boxer will get close to him and bash his brains out.

In Wasteland 2 as we know it, you are going to have a Very Bad Time. Because what the hell can you do here? Shoot and pray for crits and lucky hits. Or blow a bazooka in his face, which, as stated already, is not a very good threat to resource ratio.

However, say you have this magnificent Darth Roxor-pattern flashbang. You juggle it to one dude who is within throwing range of the rocketeer, bombs away. So now: this is risky because the flashbang can fail (25% chance of failure). But rockets being very expensive to use in AP terms, if it works, odds are even the smallest AP damage (5) that you score on him will disarm him for the one turn that you need to survive and then bust his balls.

It's certainly a good trade - you use a limited resource to get a chance to get the upper hand and have your dudes not turn into BBQ because of bullshit insta-hit/insta-kill weapons. Of course, your gambit might fail, and not just because of the flashbang not working in the first place. But that's all part of the fun.

And this is just something I came up with right now off the top of my head. There could be a shitton of variables or other effects to be had here. Or more grenade types, like smokes providing temporary cover for you to regroup your dudes or save one who is bleeding out under fire.

 

[Carrion]

Stances? Not sure. Basically, crouch or low down to increase your THC and decrease theirs. No trade off there. AP cost hardly counts.

Going prone slows your movement down to a crawl (literally), limits your line of sight (possibly preventing you from shooting from behind cover) and makes you more vulnerable to flanking (tunnel vision). I see plenty of potential trade-offs there.

I think WL2's combat would've been vastly improved with some minor additions, some of them pretty standard stuff in cRPGs. Aimed shots would've been the most obvious addition, but there are others as well. Being able to pause the game out of combat to position your characters better before the shooting starts, or even having some kind of a stealth mode for the same purpose. Different formations so that you're not as vulnerable when being attacked, as now you can't even change the order of your party members. Being able to go prone or at least move when crouching. Having the ambush system take into account what direction the characters are facing and what stance they're in (i.e. their field of vision) so that it's possible to flank or get flanked, as Ambush is a win-button as it is. Increasing your accuracy by putting more AP into your shots, JA2 style. Having health affect the effectiveness of characters so that it's possible to choose between crippling multiple enemies and killing off a single target. Being able to issue a "wait" command that lets you execute your turn later on (for instance, in a situation where your shotgun guy can't take a proper shot because the party members that are next in turn are blocking his line of sight). That's just something off the top of my head.

As it is, the combat is fun enough when the encounters are good, but it's just extremely bare-bones and might've been improved by a whole lot by ripping off JA2 with fairly minor additions.

 

[4too]

Some Say Pistoleros, Some Say GURPS GUN FU Movie Physics, I Say …





Page 6.

… Am I missing something? …

I say the SLAM DUNK of DUELING DUALITIES!

I say … GUNS AKIMBO!








4too

 

[almondblight]

I thought flashbangs worked pretty well in SRR. They could be very useful in some situations, but you had to think about whether or not they were worth the slot and cost, and if you took them, when to use them.

Shadowrun is a beautiful game (I loved the art), but it was linear, shallow, simplistic, and easy.

The user made scenarios fix some/all of those problems (depending on the scenario). Dragonfall: Directors Cut was also much better than DMS (but yes, DMS was fairly lackluster).

 

[tindrli]

am i only one who thinks that camera is atrocious. NWN2 camera was fucking masterpiece compared to W2

 

[Visperas]

I think nobody mentioned smoke grenades? Pretty obvious choice if you ask me. I missed them in my playthrough. Just one more example...

 

[4too]

The Hills Are Alive With The Sounds Of Uzis!



As Wasteland 2 first started sliding down the razor blade of free speech,

noted the use of the word aesthetics relative to the visual assets and GUI interfacing.

Grounded in philosophical or art ‘hysterical’, the expansion of minds or the ballooning of vocabularies, don’t know the multitude of adgendas.


Found this pretty gif recently that may or may not lip gloss the aspirations for quality of higher visual experience.

All glory to the cake eaters!





4too

 

[jewboy]

That's the point that I'm trying to make. WL2 doesn't offer you tactical combat. It offers you a "fairly straightforward" combat that works.

Well, it really sounds like you're saying that it just can't be done.
But OK, the others are saying that the game should offer more. More than, say "good for what it is".

Damn. I was hoping to be the first one in this thread to use that phrase. Good for what it is would have seemed like an excellent way to sum up the review. I must say that Vince missed a great opportunity there. I was hoping that Vince would do a review of this game. In fact I was holding off playing it in the hope that he would do one. But he really should have used that phrase.

In terms of creative gun combat options how about Castle Wolfenstein? I believe it ran okay with only 64 kilobytes of RAM and offered a fun stealth/disarm option that iirc even allowed you to remove all the ammo from their gun so they couldn't shoot you afterward. Now I don't know how much money was spent on that game, but I am guessing it did not have a budget anything remotely as high as WL2. Admittedly the graphics were beyond awful even when compared to WL2, but in terms of combat complexity it had stealth/disarm and allowed you to put holes in walls with grenades. Yet more fun although arguably overpowered. The point is that there are lots of fun combat options if you are willing to think creatively. To me combat complexity is something that usually adds fun to a combat centered game. The more options you have which offer any sort of tactical variety the better. Period. Even silly stuff can be fun.

What about tasteful rape as a debuff? A bayonette to the foot to reduce movement speed? The absence of stealth is a huge oversight. Even a little bit of stealth adds a huge amount of fun to combat. Is there at least a way to set fire to opponents in WL2? I hope there are flamethrowers and/or molotov cocktails.

 

[throwaway]

am i only one who thinks that camera is atrocious. NWN2 camera was fucking masterpiece compared to W2

So the game is virtually unplayable? I'm sure it'd be panned across the board if it was a bigger pain to play than NWN2 was.

 

[Blaine]

WL2's camera is nowhere NEAR as bad as NWN2's. They aren't even in the same neighborhood as far as that goes.