Review RPG Codex Review: Wasteland 2

[Tigranes]

Am I the only one who "got" the "You suck!" ?

Well, I did not get it. Explain?

What was there to get, besides it being one of the iconic moments of bad writing in video game history?

 

[4too]

‘Beau Geste’


On page 4.

… not my point at all …

The running commentary in the web forum context, although taxing at times, creates a ‘value added’ review.

Rave on.

During the drum beat for more choice, so much chaff, the straw construct was irresistible.

Thanks for the guilty pleasure.




4too

 

[felipepepe]

Might not mean much Shadowrun Returns was the best looking (and hearing) game i played the last few years, while WL2 & JA:F are the worst looking games i played the last few years.
Seriously, WL2 is a pain for the eyes. It is like they didn't considered the fact that an isometric RPG could be good-looking and made it the worst possible.
Even not considering the graphical aspect as a meaningfull feature, it is still hard to look past the graphics and get to the meat of the game. (C&C, lore, etc...)

What's so annoying is that it manages to look even worse than russian shovelware from 2006, like Planet Alcatraz:

 

[MicoSelva]

Am I the only one who "got" the "You suck!" ?

Well, I did not get it. Explain?

What was there to get, besides it being one of the iconic moments of bad writing in video game history?

That is exactly what I would like to know. Maybe it is an obscure reference of some kind?

 

[Stompa]

What's so annoying is that it manages to look even worse than russian shovelware from 2006, like Planet Alcatraz:

That's because PA used a pretty good engine, which at that point in time was top of the line and held up even when used in non-RPG games. That Russian King's Bounty remake also used it. It's just that Unity is shit, no way around it.

 

[felipepepe]

What's so annoying is that it manages to look even worse than russian shovelware from 2006, like Planet Alcatraz:

That's because PA used a pretty good engine, which at that point in time was top of the line and held up even when used in non-RPG games. That Russian King's Bounty remake also used it. It's just that Unity is shit, no way around it.

IMHO it has much more to do with good art design. Even their UI is more interesting.

 

[Athelas]

Never attribute to incompetence that which you can blame on Unity.

 

[Vault Dweller]

Am I the only one who "got" the "You suck!" ?

Well, I did not get it. Explain?

What was there to get, besides it being one of the iconic moments of bad writing in video game history?

That is exactly what I would like to know. Maybe it is an obscure reference of some kind?

If you disarm the nuke instead of giving it to either faction, the dying questgiver informs you that "You suck!"

 

[Shadenuat]

What Roxor said on page 1. The part about "too many important decisions" and "great writing" stretch things too far in particular. It's turn based game, in what other game is it possible to add precise control over actions and a lot of actions to think about and execute?
And good to great writing? Huh.

VD liked game, ok. Anyone on 'dex can say what he feels is true. But it just doesn't feel right to praise W2 as something that will lead to resurrection of a genre. It turned out more or less a mediocre game.

I also find it strange how VD said that savescumming through crazy amount of containers with very high percentage of critical failure is not a flaw in design but a player's choice, yet random loot is a flaw, even if they both lead to same type of activity for the player.

 

[MicoSelva]

Am I the only one who "got" the "You suck!" ?

Well, I did not get it. Explain?

What was there to get, besides it being one of the iconic moments of bad writing in video game history?

That is exactly what I would like to know. Maybe it is an obscure reference of some kind?

If you disarm the nuke instead of giving it to either faction, the dying questgiver informs you that "You suck!"

Obviously my question was too cryptic.
What I meant was whether the Wasteland 2 line is a reference to some earlier work (which would elevate the said line a bit in my eyes). Zombra seemed to hint at something like this.

 

[Tigranes]

I don't think ehre's any way to redeem the stupidity of the line. Even if it's a pop culture reference, he might as well have said 'D'oh!'.

 

[cvv]

Great review, glad it's got a positive vibe, the devs certainly deserve that. IMO despite its flaws it'd be pretty unfair if we shat all over it.

Tbh I don't get most of what the deniers camp is talking about. I've read dutifully all of Roxor's comments but all I wholeheartedly agree on is the retarded armor mechanics - which pissed the fuck out of me but apparently has been fixed after I was done with the game (so how does it work now - percentages?). As for bugs - yeah, game was released half-finished but that seems to be a norm now (although, to be fair, W2 did cross the line into the outrage territory, a bit). And graphixz? It's not CGA so it's fine. To be honest most other complaints fit our ancient saying "If you wanna beat a dog, you will find a stick".

So a great game and a great review, I will say this tho - if Codex does do the RPG 2013 GOTY, as one SF thread suggested, for me W2 would finish second after LoG2.

Yep.

 

[Vault Dweller]

What Roxor said on page 1. The part about "too many important decisions" and "great writing" stretch things too far in particular. It's turn based game, in what other game is it possible to add precise control over actions and a lot of actions to think about and execute?

Which actions though?

You can do a single shot, a burst if your weapon supports it, and an aimed shot for more damage. What else can you do with firearms? Sure, you can do a small burst or empty the magazine. Would it add much? No. Some SMGs do have two burst modes if I recall correctly. Aimed: body parts? Legs/torso would be pointless. Maybe arms to disarm but I don't see it adding much.

It works in AoD because you're alone, outnumbered, and combat is mostly melee. Party-based, mostly ranged (guns) combat is something completely different. The missed opportunity is ammo, which I did note. It was the only way to make combat and weapons' choice more interesting.

But it just doesn't feel right to praise W2 as something that will lead to resurrection of a genre.

I fucking hate Kickstarter (not crowdsourcing itself but the KS model that encourages selling the dream and lootbags) - everyone here knows it. Yet without KS and WL2 there would be no PoE, no Torment 2, no MMX, no Lords of Xulima, and a score of other games.

I also find it strange how VD said that savescumming through crazy amount of containers with very high percentage of critical failure is not a flaw in design but a player's choice, yet random loot is a flaw, even if they both lead to same type of activity for the player.

There is a difference between trying to force a favorable outcome even though your skills are low, thus requiring MANY reloads and reloading just to see if you get better loot.

 

[naossano]

Might not mean much Shadowrun Returns was the best looking (and hearing) game i played the last few years, while WL2 & JA:F are the worst looking games i played the last few years.
Seriously, WL2 is a pain for the eyes. It is like they didn't considered the fact that an isometric RPG could be good-looking and made it the worst possible.
Even not considering the graphical aspect as a meaningfull feature, it is still hard to look past the graphics and get to the meat of the game. (C&C, lore, etc...)

What's so annoying is that it manages to look even worse than russian shovelware from 2006, like Planet Alcatraz:

From that picture, that shovelware look incredibly awesome compared with WL2 (only sticking to the visual, not saying the shovelware is better overall)

Good review, but you cant say that shadowrun is an awful tablet game and then say wastelands 2 is the landmark of incline and combat works well.... Little use of terrain, almost no strategic choices,boring repetitive filler fights like a jrpg ,shadowrun combat looks deep compare to it.Brofist to roxxor as he says it better than i could ever.

Since I have a few min...

Shadowrun is a beautiful game (I loved the art), but it was linear, shallow, simplistic, and easy. That's four strikes against it. I've even thought of reviewing it but it was so fucking simple that you couldn't say much about it (other than 'it's shit'). No character system. No inventory. No choices, just a linear ride. No exploration - go from one mission to another. Cosmetic dialogues saying the same thing (fucking hate it). One-stop shopping design. It IS an iphone fucking game and if I recall correctly, it was pitched as a tablet game and it shows.

Wasteland 2 has flaws but when it comes to design, it's MUCH better than Shadowrun in every possible way.

I agree with linear and 'mostly" easy, but Shadowrun also bring the music, the writting, the atmosphere, some nice fighting archetype, some nice level design. Some missions like the APEX really give a fresh look into the turn-based combat possibilities. Having all your squadmates scattered in different positions in the real world and in the matrix, defending several macguffin at the same times agains't waves of ennemies, really provide the feeling everything is happening at the same time and increase the pressure/rythme/tension. If i would like to sell the concept of turn-based combat and show that it makes some situations possible that you couldn't have in real-time, i might use that mission as one of the examples?

I don't think Shadowrun has a good RPG design, and even know if it should be called RPG, but it mostly manage to be good on what it does, and truly shine on a specific number of areas.

It might be a mistake to dismiss it at first glance.
(which i should probably rephrase, since it looks great at first glance)

On a side note, it has choices (albeit not high level of choices), it has an enjoyable character system and good plots.

 

[Vault Dweller]

I don't thing Shadowrun has a good RPG design, or even if it should be called RPG, but manage to be good overall on what it does, and truly shine on a specific number of areas.

It's a superb tablet game but a crappy RPG.

 

[Grunker]

What Roxor said on page 1. The part about "too many important decisions" and "great writing" stretch things too far in particular. It's turn based game, in what other game is it possible to add precise control over actions and a lot of actions to think about and execute?

Which actions though?

You can do a single shot, a burst if your weapon supports it, and an aimed shot for more damage. What else can you do with firearms? Sure, you can do a small burst or empty the magazine. Would it add much? No. Some SMGs do have two burst modes if I recall correctly. Aimed: body parts? Legs/torso would be pointless. Maybe arms to disarm but I don't see it adding much.

It's a bit unnerving that an RPG designer displays this much lack of creativity, Vince

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/3613210/Combat Cards.pdf

^ That covers the basicest of the basicy. Even there you've got a bit of wiggle-room compared to WL2. Now, if you think a little outside the box you get Gun Fu with rules for cinematic fire arm combat. Something well within the scope of Wasteland 2's "silly" universe.

In a world . . . where the line between evil and honor is drawn by a bullet, only one supplement dares to lay down the law of the gun: GURPS Gun Fu.

GURPS Gun Fu has everything you need for action-packed cinematic GURPS gunplay:

• A description and explanation of what the gun fu genre is and how to emulate it.
• Rules for tricky shooting and "impossible" firearm feats. Go back-to-back with your ally, or shoot weapons from foes' hands.
• A half-dozen styles for gunfighters. Become an Ultimate Shootist or a practitioner of the Future Kill!
• Dozens of new shooting techniques. Master the Dual-Weapon Attack, or use the Instant Arsenal Disarm to thwart your enemies.
• Over 50 new perks for stylists. If you've ever wanted to be Cool Under Fire or Bend the Bullet, look no further.
• Information on new weapons, gunsmithing, and cool-looking accessories.
• A packed appendix on inspirational fiction, including tips for how to emulate some of their tricks.

If you're looking for cinematic firearm action, simply slide along the floor with both guns blazing, release the doves, and pick up a copy of GURPS Gun Fu!

Obviously I'm not asking that inXile copy GURPS, I'm just saying that it's nothing short of a cop-out to say "oh well, combat is with guns, and as we all know, you just can't have interesting combat with guns!"

 

[felipepepe]

You can do a single shot, a burst if your weapon supports it, and an aimed shot for more damage. What else can you do with firearms? Sure, you can do a small burst or empty the magazine. Would it add much? No. Some SMGs do have two burst modes if I recall correctly. Aimed: body parts? Legs/torso would be pointless. Maybe arms to disarm but I don't see it adding much.

C'mon VD, there's a lot you can do: arm shots to disarm, knee shot to knockdown/cripple, fast shot with lower THC, steady shots with higher THC, pin down enemies behind cover... Shadowrun Returns, for all its flaws, does this well enough.

 

[Vault Dweller]

Grunker

I didn't say you can't have interesting combat with guns. I said you can't have many options with guns, which isn't the same thing. As for the cards you posted, most of them won't translate well into *crpg* combat options.

Silent Storm is considered a good tactical game. Did you have more combat options? It didn't but the overall design was better. Of course it was a combat game, so...

 

[Grunker]

You can do a single shot, a burst if your weapon supports it, and an aimed shot for more damage. What else can you do with firearms? Sure, you can do a small burst or empty the magazine. Would it add much? No. Some SMGs do have two burst modes if I recall correctly. Aimed: body parts? Legs/torso would be pointless. Maybe arms to disarm but I don't see it adding much.

C'mon VD, there's a lot you can do: arm shots to disarm, knee shot to knockdown/cripple, fast shot with lower THC, steady shots with higher THC, pin down enemies behind cover... Shadowrun Returns, for all its flaws, does this well enough.

Shadowrun also assigns special ammo as combat abilities, but even just adding more special ammo to WL2 could have helped.

 

[Grunker]

I didn't say you can't have interesting combat with guns. I said you can't have many options with guns, which isn't the same thing.

No, but it's just as untrue. Why wouldn't cinematic effects like Bullet Bending, Disarming Shot, Right Between The Eyes, Action Movie Mode (bullet-free turn) or similar over-the-top concepts work in a cRPG? Especially one with fucking disco robots like WL2?

Gmeas with tiny amounts of combat actions like SRR has stuff like this. It's not that hard.

 

[Shadenuat]

Silent Storm is considered a good tactical game. Did you have more combat options? It didn't but the overall design was better.

Destructable environment provided enough options even with standard set of guns. Same goes for JA - night operations, shooting through walls, complex field of vision and spot system, scattering explosives, camouflage, stealth and consumables to boost party when needed. And X-COM, even new one, had supressive fire, squad morale and actual 3d levels where positioning did matter.

Of course it was a combat game, so...

W2 is a combat game through and through. You spend most of the time cleaning maps.

 

[felipepepe]

Silent Storm is considered a good tactical game. Did you have more combat options? It didn't but the overall design was better. Of course it was a combat game, so...

SS had a lot more options. You have 4 different walking speeds, shots aimed at body parts (Head, Body, Left arm, Right arm, Left leg, Right leg) plus 6 different types of shot, from hip shot to sniping.

 

[Infinitron]

Didn't VD already cover all of this in this one sentence:

Does it mean that you’re going to like it? It depends entirely on your expectations. If you expected a long overdue sequel or a game that allows you to chart your own course, I think you’ll be pleasantly surprised. If you expected a game like [Fallout / Jagged Alliance / ‘best game evar’], you might be disappointed.

 

[Grunker]

Didn't VD already cover all of this in this one sentence:

Does it mean that you’re going to like it? It depends entirely on your expectations. If you expected a long overdue sequel or a game that allows you to chart your own course, I think you’ll be pleasantly surprised. If you expected a game like [Fallout / Jagged Alliance / ‘best game evar’], you might be disappointed.

No? I think I'm going to like WL2, but I also know from the time I've spent with it that would have liked it much better with just a few changes to the combat to make it at least somewhat less formulaic. It's not like we're asking for a different game here.

 

[FeelTheRads]

Silent Storm is considered a good tactical game. Did you have more combat options? It didn't but the overall design was better. Of course it was a combat game, so...

SS had a lot more options. You have 4 different walking speeds, shots aimed at body parts (Head, Body, Left arm, Right arm, Left leg, Right leg) plus 6 different types of shot, from hip shot to sniping.

But did it add much?