Incline RPG Codex's Top 50 cRPGs - Results and Reviews

[meanwhileInPoland]

Dark Souls is better than Baldur's Gate, KOTOR II, Temple of Elemental Evil, IWD, SS2, and the Witcher? Not sure if serious.

its got better exploration and opened worldness than bg, better atmosphere and more memorable npcs than kotor2, better combat and encounter design than toee, prettier locations and better dungeons than iwd and better plot and c&c than witcher1

Spoiler

no really it is better

fuck this thread reminds me that i hav to finally play fucking albion. like fucking right now

 

[felipepepe]

I'd rather do a Krynn trilogy review, but seen as they didn't even make it to the top 50, I don't see why. Happy to see Wiz8 is in the top ten though.

Champions of Krynn is on the Runner-Up list, would be very cool is you review it.

When should the review be ready? Cause I'm really busy with real life stuff, having a paper for uni due at the end of February (and a girlfriend whom I waste a lot of time with ). I'll likely only be able to write after the 27th of February, which is the date my paper has to be ready. Before that... work work work.

I don't really have a date for this... I'll keep going until I'm satisfied with the reviews, but until the end of February sounds cool.

 

[VioletShadow]

Amazing job! Mah babies made #1 and #6 Yay!

 

[JarlFrank]

I'd rather do a Krynn trilogy review, but seen as they didn't even make it to the top 50, I don't see why. Happy to see Wiz8 is in the top ten though.

Champions of Krynn is on the Runner-Up list, would be very cool is you review it.

When should the review be ready? Cause I'm really busy with real life stuff, having a paper for uni due at the end of February (and a girlfriend whom I waste a lot of time with ). I'll likely only be able to write after the 27th of February, which is the date my paper has to be ready. Before that... work work work.

I don't really have a date for this... I'll keep going until I'm satisfied with the reviews, but until the end of February sounds cool.

Remind me again at the 27th then!

 

[Crooked Bee]

I kind of agree with neogaf posters that Dark Souls doesn't fit on our list

From Software's games trace their lineage to Ultima Underworld much more than anything like Castlevania. So if we have UW on the list, then Dark Souls belongs there too.

Saying it "doesn't fit" is just pandering to the retarded Codexers who feel like viewing UW, Arx Fatalis, Gothic or Witcher 2 as RPGs and Dark Souls as anything but.

 

[Aeschylus]

I dunno, the only game on the list that I would point to as definitely not being an RPG is System Shock 1. Otherwise I think people did a pretty good job formulating their lists.

 

[janjetina]

its got better exploration and opened worldness than bg, better atmosphere and more memorable npcs than kotor2, better combat and encounter design than toee, prettier locations and better dungeons than iwd and better plot and c&c than witcher1

The analogy (joke) is flawed since you mix the strong suites of some games with weaknesses on others on the same list (for example, the exploration in BG was reduced to 'paint the map', TOEE had great combat system, but mediocre encounter design (if it had good encounter design, it would have been at or very near the very top of the RPG list).

 

[Cowboy Moment]

I kind of agree with neogaf posters that Dark Souls doesn't fit on our list

From Software's games trace their lineage to Ultima Underworld much more than anything like Castlevania. So if we have UW on the list, then Dark Souls belongs there too.

Saying it "doesn't fit" is just pandering to the retarded Codexers who feel like viewing UW, Arx Fatalis, Gothic or Witcher 2 as RPGs and Dark Souls as anything but.

I haven't played King's Field or Shadow Tower, so it's certainly possible that those harken back to Ultima Underworld and friends, but Dark Souls specifically just doesn't. It plays like what you'd expect from Castlevania if you made it 3D and reduced the gameplay to combat alone. Besides, if we look at its predecessor, Demon's Souls, we'll see a much more arcadey game, with worlds you can pick and stages you progress through in a very linear manner, each concluded with a bossfight.

Let me put this another way. One of the difficulties in defining what an RPG is comes from the fact that people enjoy RPGs for many different reasons. However, without getting into the everlasting definition debate, it's usually possible to cluster them into groups based on their features. So, for example, we can have a group of Ultima Underworlds, System Shocks, Arx Fatalis, etc, where some people obviously believe the shared feature set of these games qualifies them as RPGs. The thing with Dark Souls is that it's not really similar to anything else on the list. Hence, it doesn't fit.

And honestly, Bee, does it really upset you so much that some people don't consider DkS an RPG? Come on, it doesn't fucking matter. I've probably spent more time playing Dark Souls than you have, and it doesn't fucking matter to me, that's for sure. Like, I think Thief is better than most of our top10, and you can definitely see the Ultima Underworld/System Shock influence in it, but I don't consider it an RPG, and that is just fine.

 

[Jasede]

I'd be happy to consider it an "arcade game", but it's not that. Or an "action game", but it's not that either. Or an "RPG", but it's not 100%. Or an "Action-Adventure".

Point is, if you're gonna allow hybrids like Deus Ex, SS2, JA2, you must allow Dark Souls.

 

[Crooked Bee]

I haven't played King's Field or Shadow Tower, so it's certainly possible that those harken back to Ultima Underworld and friends, but Dark Souls specifically just doesn't. It plays like what you'd expect from Castlevania if you made it 3D and reduced the gameplay to combat alone.

Well, I disagree. I think it plays nothing like Castlevania.

The games it reminds me of are UW and its successors (gameplay-wise) and Wizardry (atmosphere-wise).

And honestly, Bee, does it really upset you so much that some people don't consider DkS an RPG? Come on, it doesn't fucking matter.

That much I can agree with.

I'm just saying, if UW is an RPG, then DS is one too.

[ So, for example, we can have a group of Ultima Underworlds, System Shocks, Arx Fatalis, etc,

Yes, and Dark Souls belongs to this very group. It plays exactly like a modern version of UW and Arx.

If anything, like Aeschylus said, SS1 doesn't belong here.

The thing with Dark Souls is that it's not really similar to anything else on the list. Hence, it doesn't fit.

tl;dr This is untrue. DS is nothing like a Castlevania; it does what every ARPG (like UW or Gothic) does, except, for the most part, better.

 

[Black_Willow]

Dark Souls is better than Baldur's Gate, KOTOR II, Temple of Elemental Evil, IWD, SS2, and the Witcher? Not sure if serious.

its got better exploration and opened worldness than bg, better atmosphere and more memorable npcs than kotor2, better combat and encounter design than toee, prettier locations and better dungeons than iwd and better plot and c&c than witcher1

Spoiler

no really it is better

fuck this thread reminds me that i hav to finally play fucking albion. like fucking right now

Please register at ZeldaCloneCodex.net

 

[felipepepe]

How the hell is Dark Souls like Castlevania? You can't even properly jump ffs. Or now every game that doesn't have linear dungeons is a castlevania-clone?

Is like Bee said, From Software always made Ultima Underworld inspired games, Dark Souls simply goes third-person and improves the combat.

 

[Shadowfang]

This thread lead me to play Alpha Protocol.
Screw you guys!

 

[Telengard]

I kind of agree with neogaf posters that Dark Souls doesn't fit on our list

From Software's games trace their lineage to Ultima Underworld much more than anything like Castlevania. So if we have UW on the list, then Dark Souls belongs there too.

Saying it "doesn't fit" is just pandering to the retarded Codexers who feel like viewing UW, Arx Fatalis, Gothic or Witcher 2 as RPGs and Dark Souls as anything but.

I haven't played King's Field or Shadow Tower, so it's certainly possible that those harken back to Ultima Underworld and friends, but Dark Souls specifically just doesn't. It plays like what you'd expect from Castlevania if you made it 3D and reduced the gameplay to combat alone. Besides, if we look at its predecessor, Demon's Souls, we'll see a much more arcadey game, with worlds you can pick and stages you progress through in a very linear manner, each concluded with a bossfight.

Let me put this another way. One of the difficulties in defining what an RPG is comes from the fact that people enjoy RPGs for many different reasons. However, without getting into the everlasting definition debate, it's usually possible to cluster them into groups based on their features. So, for example, we can have a group of Ultima Underworlds, System Shocks, Arx Fatalis, etc, where some people obviously believe the shared feature set of these games qualifies them as RPGs. The thing with Dark Souls is that it's not really similar to anything else on the list. Hence, it doesn't fit.

And honestly, Bee, does it really upset you so much that some people don't consider DkS an RPG? Come on, it doesn't fucking matter. I've probably spent more time playing Dark Souls than you have, and it doesn't fucking matter to me, that's for sure. Like, I think Thief is better than most of our top10, and you can definitely see the Ultima Underworld/System Shock influence in it, but I don't consider it an RPG, and that is just fine.

Dark Souls harkens back to the old, much-forgotten twitch fighting RPGs such as Moebius. Not gonna find games like Moebius on any top 50 list, but they do exist. So, there's nothing keeping Dark Souls from having an RPG pedigree. Just not a common or well-known one that will have anything to really compare it to on the list made here.

On the other hand, a couple of things do niggle at me in the case of the Souls series. The fact that stripping off your armor, throwing away your shield, and running around nekkid is almost always your best defense. And the fact that parrying and dodging is almost always superior to defending, and those are wholly based on timing (and being nekkid). And the fact that the other RPG elements are equally under-utilized in progressing the game. Thus rendering the RPG elements unnecessary to complete the game, and allowing one to complete the game wholly based on twitch skill. None of this, of course, is necessary in making a good game, but the necessity of using the RPG elements should probably be a factor in determining whether a game is good RPG.

 

[Crooked Bee]

Moebius? Why not Prince of Persia?

I can't believe you quote Moebius as an example when there is stuff like Arx or Witcher on the list.

Or, since we're talking about "games that don't belong on the list because of my arbitrary definition of what an RPG is", why isn't anyone complaining about King of Dragon Pass? Oh right, C&C

The fact that stripping off your armor, throwing away your shield, and running around nekkid is almost always your best defense.

The thing is, different builds are viable in Dark Souls, including a low-level "naked" run. You could argue the game is imbalanced and favors a naked build, but that doesn't make it less of an RPG.

Amusingly enough, Dark Souls is better in the character building department than any Ultima game, for example, and not much worse (if any worse at all) in the exploration deparment either.

 

[Cowboy Moment]

Come on guys, it's been many years since I played UU or Arx, but you're not going to tell me they play anything like Dark Souls. The level design is completely different, and consequently the exploration (a major components of all these games) feels completely different. As Telengard points out, Dark Souls relies way more on player skill in its combat as well, to the point where completing the game at SL1 isn't even an especially difficult venture.

And yes, the world structure is pretty much exactly the same as Symphony of the Night. You typically have several different ways to go, but once you pick one, you follow a linear path with the occasional side room, until you come to another major fork in the path, or a shortcut which will take you back to a checkpoint, allowing you to save and continue exploring without having to backtrack. Even though bonfires in DkS aren't, strictly speaking, checkpoints, they serve a similar purpose. Incidentally, the liberal enemy respawning (on area transition in SotN, on resting in DkS) is another obvious similarity. The primary difference is that DkS has no platforming, which is replaced with a much deeper combat system and better encounter design; and that there are no powers which can be used for content gating, like they often are in Metroidvanias - these are replaced with gating through powerful enemies, items (transient curses in New Londo, Ring of Artorias to fight the Four Kings, light source in Tomb of the Giants), and plot machinations.

If you want to believe Dark Souls is an RPG, feel free to, obviously this is a popular enough belief that it got 17th on the list, but don't compare it to games it's really not very similar to.

 

[Tigranes]

I don't know which ones have enough reviews, but felipepepe here.

Icewind Dale II:

Spoiler

The Infinity Engine produced five games; all five feature on this list. IWDII was the swan song to this extraordinary period in RPG history, and perhaps the most controversial title. Greenlighted to relieve Interplay's sagging accounts, Josh Sawyer wrote the outline in 24 hours, and less than a year of full development. Critics lamented the lack of cohesion in level design and atmosphere, compared to the high standards set by its predecessor, while the plot is not much more than placeholder for combat. But IWDII remains, for many, an incredibly fun game. Its adaptation of 3rd edition D&D rules is well done, and the now mature Infinity Engine is pushed to its limit to create its own distinctive challenges. Goblins beat on war drums to call their comrades, who arrive on wargs and continue to fight on foot when their mounts are shot down; orcs can be shot ablaze through flaming barrels, while giants lob rocks the size of ten men at your party. Large dungeons like Dragon's Eye and the Severed Hand are full of little quests, distinctive boss encounters, set pieces and backstory that fully satisfy that good old dungeoneering itch. IWDII is a solid dose of killing, looting and pillaging that fully deserves a try.

Working off memory so the exact numbers might be wrong.

 

[Crooked Bee]

Have you even played Arx? The exploration there is much more linear than in DS. The way you present DS' exploration, you could present pretty much any dungeon crawler, including UW. I replayed it recently and you could as well present it as linear paths + intersections - heck, you could break down pretty much any kind of dungeon design like that.

The resemblance to SotN is superficial - it's only there because SotN itself follows one of the classic dungeon crawler formulas. You have it backwards, basically.

Same goes for the checkpoints. Dark Souls basically takes the UW formula and merges it with a checkpoint design - the kind you could see in games like Wizardry, Dark Heart of Uukrul, etc. Not to mention the enemy respawning which is another classic feature that used to accompany the rest.

Also different builds - what I said earlier. It is an (action) RPG; there's no way you could deny that without also doing away with all the other ARPGs on the list.

 

[Deleted member 7219]

Dark Souls is better than Baldur's Gate, KOTOR II, Temple of Elemental Evil, IWD, SS2, and the Witcher? Not sure if serious.

its got better exploration and opened worldness than bg, better atmosphere and more memorable npcs than kotor2, better combat and encounter design than toee, prettier locations and better dungeons than iwd and better plot and c&c than witcher1

Spoiler

better atmosphere and more memorable npcs than kotor2

no really it is better

fuck this thread reminds me that i hav to finally play fucking albion. like fucking right now

better atmosphere and more memorable npcs than kotor2

 

[felipepepe]

Castlevania is a goddamn 2D side-scroller with platforming, that doesn't even have NPCs or character creation... apart from the great non-linear level design, there's not really anything in common with Dark Souls.

On the other hand, a couple of things do niggle at me in the case of the Souls series. The fact that stripping off your armor, throwing away your shield, and running around nekkid is almost always your best defense. And the fact that parrying and dodging is almost always superior to defending, and those are wholly based on timing (and being nekkid). And the fact that the other RPG elements are equally under-utilized in progressing the game. Thus rendering the RPG elements unnecessary to complete the game, and allowing one to complete the game wholly based on twitch skill.

If that's an issue, guess we should remove Fallout: New Vegas as well, since all that matters is your gun and shooting at the enemy like in a FPS... not to mention The Twitcher, Gothic, Alpha Brotocol, Desu Ex, Mount & Blade...

 

[Bubbles]

That's completely true. Most of the KOTOR2 npcs are cardboard cutouts.

 

[Rake]

If how one that's an issue, guess we should remove Fallout: New Vegas as well, since all that matters is your gun and shooting at the enemy like in a FPS... not to mention The Twitcher, Gothic, Alpha Brotocol, Desu Ex, Mount & Blade...

Ok, throw them all out. It will improve the list...

 

[Bubbles]

Throw Bloodlines out too. Mustn't forget Bloodlines.

 

[Deleted member 7219]

That's completely true. Most of the KOTOR2 npcs are cardboard cutouts.

Can you give me one example?

 

[felipepepe]

Throw Bloodlines out too. Mustn't forget Bloodlines.

Bloodlines has horrible & unbalanced dungeons full of combat, to the point that you have to make specific builds to be able to beat the game; you can't just choose Nosferatu and stealth past everything.

Thus, Bloodlines shitty areas are what makes it a TR00 RPG. :thread logic: