RPG of the Decade - Developers' Choice

[KalosKagathos]

Persona 4 is gaming excellence and several cuts above the typical angsty cardboard cut-out teenie drama typical of JRPGs thanks to the wonderful localization by Atlus, excellent writing and solid voice acting. This game has some of the most NATURAL and mature dialogue of ANY RPG.

But the Codex LOVES angsty cardboard cut-out drama. Just look at all the praise Torment is getting!

 

[Silellak]

Persona 4 is gaming excellence and several cuts above the typical angsty cardboard cut-out teenie drama typical of JRPGs thanks to the wonderful localization by Atlus, excellent writing and solid voice acting. This game has some of the most NATURAL and mature dialogue of ANY RPG.

But the Codex LOVES angsty cardboard cut-out drama. Just look at all the praise Torment is getting!

 

[KalosKagathos]

What, you don't remember that mature scene where TNO kisses Annah?

 

[Silellak]

What, you don't remember that mature scene where TNO kisses Annah?

Remember? I fwap'd.

 

[Relayer71]

Does Persona 4 also have shitty half-assed dungeons, j-pop soundtrack with engrish lyrics, and that annoying support character who pops up every five seconds during a battle to state the fucking obvious in a high-pitched voice like the previous game did?

If so, I just don't understand how anyone could enjoy it. :mystery:

Dungeons: Instead of one huge tower (dungeon) , they're separate smaller dungeons with distinctive themes (unfortunately mostly asthetic). Definitely an improvement though, the dungeons do feel more cohesive.

Music: I'm more of a progressive rock kind of guy but can't deny those j-pop tunes can be catchy as hell. Actually P4 had less J-rap & J-pop and more of an alternative rock & crazy 80s metal style guitar solos so again an improvement.

Support Character: still there, toned down a bit though. Also, it helps that you can control all your characters this time out.

 

[Relayer71]

What, you don't remember that mature scene where TNO kisses Annah?

DAMN SPOILERS!! You just gave away the whole plot!!!

 

[KalosKagathos]

Lies, I said nothing about tail sex!

 

[Murk]

http://hardforum.com/showthread.php?p=1035608180
http://rampantgames.com/blog/?p=299



Better have this in one thread.

Jesus christ man, why the hell would you ever expose anyone to that link (first one)?

 

[Marquess Cornwallis]

My vote goes to Deus Ex.

While in itself relatively light on role-playing elements, it set an example for how the FPS and RPG genres could be blended successfully. It demonstrated that character skill and player skill can co-exist and make for compelling gameplay. Deus Ex had its share of flaws, but not such as would ruin the overall experience. It might have been a bit too long, but unlike too many other titles, it didn't feel unfinished, unbalanced or rushed out of the door. The only game to follow a similar model while adding more role-playing elements (rather than eliminating them) to the mix was Bloodlines. Unfortunately, only the first half or so actually lived up to the older game's legacy.

Other games that I thought did especially stand out, for different reasons, are (in chronological order): Baldur's Gate II, Gothic, Morrowind, Bloodlines. Arcanum, while merely good, was a blueprint for a terrific game and is admirable for its ambition alone.

 

[Felix]

Does Persona 4 also have shitty half-assed dungeons, j-pop soundtrack with engrish lyrics, and that annoying support character who pops up every five seconds during a battle to state the fucking obvious in a high-pitched voice like the previous game did?

If so, I just don't understand how anyone could enjoy it. :mystery:

Yes, but a bit better and easier(Japanese seem to love their tedious and drawn out boss battles), also all party members considered like super hot by animu standard with one exception while some npcs looked not even remotely human, how realistic :mystery:

For console, demon's soul is where it at.

 

[Turisas]

What was that Project New Jersey that Annie Carlson was talking about?

 

[yaster]

What was that Project New Jersey that Annie Carlson was talking about?

I think that's how Obsidian code name their games. Sawyer thing, like with using presidents in Black Isle, project Jefferson and that kind of stuff. I may be wrong though

 

[Turisas]

Um yeah, I know that... I was wondering what it was about.

 

[Gerrard]

Sure is ESF around here.

 

[Turisas]

Naw, we need a resident Pwincess banning all dissenting opinions first before we'll qualify.

 

[Elwro]

After Jeff wrote his piece I now simply have to insert "sic" after "Spiderweb Games".

 

[Silellak]

Um yeah, I know that... I was wondering what it was about.

This is all I was able to dig up:

The second of thee next-gen projects in the works at developer Obsidian Entertainment, this game is said to be a 3rd-person Adventure-RPG. The game makes use of the advanced Unreal 3.0 engine and is an original IP not based on any current franchises.
This game has not yet been officially announced. While it is being created with three next-gen platforms (PS3, Xbox 360 and modern PCs) in mind, exact release plans have not been set yet.

I think I remember Annie saying something about an RPG with a DMC-style combat engine, but I'm too lazy to dig up the post. Maybe she'd be kind enough to refresh our memory? I KNOW YOU'RE LURKING OUT THERE ANNIE.

Here's the thread:
http://rpgcodex.net/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=28000

 

[Sceptic]

That was a good thread. Annie's comment about the Codex arguing over fighting games and the resulting comments are hilarious

New Jersey sounded pretty interesting too. From the few bits Annie let loose it sounded like action-RPG done right. Shame about that.

 

[spacemoose]

Building and leading an army, as well as the castle siege parts, was some of the most fun I’ve had in games in years. The world was open, and that was great, but the story seemed to want you to make it up as you went along, and the ability to break from a lord and create your own kingdom would have been fantastic. A bit more reactivity to the player’s accomplishments and a few more unique personalities for the allies and rival lords/ladies and it would be damn near perfect. I don’t think I played any games for longer stretches of time than this one. There were a few other rough edges, but all I can think of right now is horsemen zigzagging about on a muddy plain, cutting down the remnants of the enemy’s army.

heck yes

 

[PorkaMorka]

PC only:

RPG of the Decade: Jagged Alliance 2
Runner up: Knights of the Chalice
Third: Silent Storm/SS: Sentinels
Hmm that might get me in trouble... I'll disqualify JA2 and SS by labeling them as "tactics" games. I'll also disqualify roguelikes as their own genre.

RPG of the Decade: Knights of the Chalice
Excellent AI, excellent encounter design, classic D&D character development, extremely focused with little wasted time, kept even the incredibly bitter and cynical adult version of myself which hates everything mesmerized throughout. Had some dungeons where I was really struggling to use/conserve all my resources to survive, which is sorely needed in CRPGs to make the dungeons have at least a little bit of tension.

Although to be fair, the early game was probably a lot more fun for me than it will be for most people as the campfire in the Orc fort was originally placed in a hard to notice area and I missed it and had to wait until after the boss to rest, making the dungeon much more challenging and enjoyable than it would otherwise have been. Also eventually you figure out crafting ruins the resource conservation/survival element, but the battles can still carry it, these are some of the best battles ever put into a CRPG.

Runner up: Baldur's Gate 2
Some ridiculously high number of hours of B - C+ level D&D combat and adventuring, plus nice character development. Sure, the combat system isn't exceedingly tactical, but I can name 50 RPGs with worse combat, this combat was also a far cry from say KOTR, you still had to use tactics for some encounters and I imagine most people died a bit first time through. They say quantity has a quality of it's own, I'm not sure that's always true, as 100 hours of D level content sounds like hell to me. But this game had both decent quality and ridiculous quantity, so it was great back then although my patience for it would be lower today I'm sure.

Third: Icewind Dale 1
Better atmosphere than BG2, full party was a big plus too, but ultimately not as memorable encounters and suffered from certain problems like NPC groups getting split apart on pulls.

A proper P&P system with thousands of hours of playtesting adapted to a CRPG just has a much better chance of having good mechanics, compared to something made up from whole cloth by non specialists in a couple of months. (Sir Tech did ok with making up systems though.)

Honorable Mention: Odium
Nice combat system, bonus points for the extremely limited resources early on, creating a need to struggle to conserve resources, not much wasted time. Sadly limited resources do not last.


DISHONORABLE mention (bad)
All Action "RPGs" and those people who put them on RPG of the decade lists.

Arcanum - due to massive gameplay and character development failures, we've been over this one ad nauseum

Wizardry 8 - Speed patch made it almost playable, awesome character development, but ruined by multiple 15- 30 min combat with some randomly generated alligators or something in order to get anywhere, Tried it twice, got bored twice.

TOEE - It's like KOTC with awful encounter design, the most boring town in any RPG, and an extremely poor difficulty curve. Tried it twice, got bored twice. What a waste, they make that awesome engine then have like one fun battle in the first 5 hours (the main moat house room).

Pool of Radiance 2 - Speed patch made it almost playable, but combat is almost repetitive and boring as Wizardry 8, although at least they're not random battles. Better battles than Wizardry 8, but almost no character development at all. Tried it twice, got bored twice.

I don't think that there is a single player who would prefer bad/mediocre graphics to good ones, if everything else is equal.

I would prefer mediocre quality 2d sprites to high quality 3d graphics, both at an aesthetic level and because all else cannot be even, 2d with mediocre tiles means animations can be vastly quicker and the interface can be better with no need to worry about the camera angle.

(in general, not an AOD related comment)

 

[yaster]

You can't include JA2 either way since It's 1999 game.

But your list made me think - all of these games seems to heavily concentrate on fighting aspect of the gameplay, they are party/squad based and one of their defining quality is (ideally) ability to use tactics in combat. Well, bg2 also relies heavily on storyline (in the rest of these titles I would say story is addition defining flavour and not main attraction), It would be easier to answer in this case so let's concentrate more on others. Here's the question - what distinguish (small scale/squad based) tactics game from party based RPG? Where is the line betweens them, why include odium (gorky17) and SS2 not.

I can think of 2 main angles:

• Character creation, at the beginning of the game player is able to define his character(s), what he is capable of, his strong and weak points - it's kinda hidden in JA2, it's possible to not use this option in the game at all. But in SS2 it's mandatory. And it only isn't fully present in odium since your whole party is predefined
  
  Exploration, player is given possibility of exploring the map while not in combat, open chests, chat with npcs, discover optional things. That something that odium & other rpgs have while SS2 don't. JA2 makes the exception though, map is quite large, have two layers and player can go wherever he please. It's easy to dismiss Ja2 on other basis thought, it have strategic management part, so I assume it still maybe the case

What is your key then? Where you draw line?

 

[PorkaMorka]

Here's the question - what distinguish (small scale/squad based) tactics game from party based RPG? Where is the line betweens them, why include odium (gorky17) and SS2 not.

I can think of 2 main angles:

• Character creation, at the beginning of the game player is able to define his character(s), what he is capable of, his strong and weak points - it's kinda hidden in JA2, it's possible to not use this option in the game at all. But in SS2 it's mandatory. And it only isn't fully present in odium since your whole party is predefined
  
  Exploration, player is given possibility of exploring the map while not in combat, open chests, chat with npcs, discover optional things. That something that odium & other rpgs have while SS2 don't. JA2 makes the exception though, map is quite large, have two layers and player can go wherever he please. It's easy to dismiss Ja2 on other basis thought, it have strategic management part, so I assume it still maybe the case

What is your key then? Where you draw line?

I don't believe you can define an effective standard to separate tactical RPGs from tactics games with "RPG elements". The difference between a highly tactical RPG and a tactics game with a good story, good character development and solid adventure elements is pretty much nil.

JA2 can credibly be called either in my opinion, although since people re-play it so much the tactics elements probably get a lot more discussion nowadays. But it also has some of the best NPCs of any game.

Odium I'd argue leans a little more towards RPG than tactics, but I'm not sure I can really quantify exactly why, between the abstracted combat and the style of dungeon exploration it was to me heavily reminiscent of certain JRPGs in style.

 

[ecliptic]

Wizardry 8 would be my pick. There's a lot of good games there, and I've beaten a handful of them, but nothing compelled me to play it through to completion like Wiz 8 did.