RPG Progression Schema

[Grampy_Bone]

I call these Improvement Vectors (Progress Vectors?)

My theory is that the system itself is less important to having multiple vectors. Typically RPGs have two axis of improvement (levels and equipment) as the bare minimum; removing one results in a boring game; while adding more almost always improves the game.

Multiple vectors results in more rewarding gameplay. One modern trend is to keep the two axis but allow multiple activities for improvement; eg buy new gear, find it, craft it, or steal it, etc. Or give xp for things other than fights, like exploring or collecting things. This is good but games that add a third or more systems are interesting to me, such as class changes, or alternate skill vectors like learning powers from items, like PoEs skill gems.

Too many improvement routes could make the game feel overly generous and easy but boiling a game down to pure xp or gear grind is never a benefit.

 

[Butter]

I call these Improvement Vectors (Progress Vectors?)

My theory is that the system itself is less important to having multiple vectors. Typically RPGs have two axis of improvement (levels and equipment) as the bare minimum; removing one results in a boring game; while adding more almost always improves the game.

Multiple vectors results in more rewarding gameplay. One modern trend is to keep the two axis but allow multiple activities for improvement; eg buy new gear, find it, craft it, or steal it, etc. Or give xp for things other than fights, like exploring or collecting things. This is good but games that add a third or more systems are interesting to me, such as class changes, or alternate skill vectors like learning powers from items, like PoEs skill gems.

Too many improvement routes could make the game feel overly generous and easy but boiling a game down to pure xp or gear grind is never a benefit.

I really like the way Deus Ex does progression. It uses the Age of Decadence System as I described in the OP, but that only covers skill progression. You can get skill points for exploration, but it's usually not much compared to what you get from completing objectives. Instead the game uses augmentation canisters and weapon mods to reward exploration. So it has 3 clear vectors of progression, and it doesn't feel like too much or too little. This is where I think all the Deus Ex sequels/prequels messed up, because they all tried to cut one or more vectors.

 

[PorkyThePaladin]

but have not aged well at all

Those classics should be modernized to address those blemishes then.

Not going to happen. Modernized these days means graphics are improved. But those games are so old, that wouldn't be enough, the entire gameplay has to be redone.

 

[Zed Duke of Banville]

That image is guaranteed to trigger anyone with knowledge of when classes were introduced into the various versions of D&D/AD&D.

 

[octavius]

Came to loathe any system that uses the rise-by-use skill system, aka "Gotta sit on my balls behind this mudcrab for a few hours 'cause otherwise my stealth skill is going to be useless".

Not all games with rise-by-use skill system are like that. In Nahlakh it works well, 'cause the game is turn based and has no random encounters. And overall it has one of the best skill systems of the old DOS era games.

 

[Mr. Magniloquent]

Kabas I think those screenshots are from WB1. That series did do the heros right though. All of the classes were very satisfying, especially the mages.

I agree that increased skill through use generally isn't good. I think the only time I liked it was in Betrayal At Krondor. Like everything else with that game, they had the right tweaks that just made everything work. You could tag up to 5 skill to boost their advancement. The fewer tagged, the bigger the bonus. The game also had books and trainers to learn from.

 

[Kabas]

@Kabas I think those screenshots are from WB1. That series did do the heros right though. All of the classes were very satisfying, especially the mages.

I took them from the WB2 reference card. Doesn't explain everything but still enough to be useful.

First game uses practically the same system from what i know.

 

[Lord_Potato]

Experience is the way. Crush monsters, solve quests, gain XP.
Traditional Elder Scrolls games had an interesting system where you level up by improving a combination of your skills, Major and Minor (Arena, Daggerfall and Morrowind particularly).

Arena had a traditional xp system (the only ES game with it). Levelling through increasing skills was introduced in Daggerfall.

 

[PapaPetro]

Meta-levels?

 

[KeighnMcDeath]

There is also the perrenially overlooked Freedom Force, which has a point buy system. XP is the direct currency which you spend to unlock abilities and skills. Its also used to upgrade existing skills. XP cost is variable to how powerful the unlock or upgrade is. Some are gated and not accessible until a prior skill is upgraded to 3/5.

The only short-coming is that the characters are predefined in FF, so its strengths are underutilized. A classless PnP RPG that uses this style of advancement is Deadlands, and it is excellent.

That almost makes me think of Mail Order Monsters where credits csn increase your stats. Yeah, it is an arcade arena RPG of sorts (mostly arcade like Archon 1-2).

THAC0 would be great if when monsters you needed to hit that were below 1 or in the negatives inflicted more damage or caused criticals (i swear the more damage was in Mentzer tables of D&D companion or master set). Ie. You are sitting on a swag fucking lvl 40 fighter. Shit, your THAC0 should br like -20 or higher (i'd havr to level up some dude in POD to remember or use the trainer GBC).
Fucking puke with AC8 should be like minced or crushed badly in a single blow. Criticals really didn't pop up until PO:Combat & Tactics.

I wondered if someone was going to mention skills going up by usage.

 

[PapaPetro]

i swear the more damage was in Mentzer tables of D&D companion or master set

Have you checked how leveling works in Mentzer's Immortals set?

 

[MartinK]

In Legend of Kyrandia, Brandon gains four abilities over the course of the game. I think it counts as a character progression. Is it a RPG?

 

[KeighnMcDeath]

i swear the more damage was in Mentzer tables of D&D companion or master set

Have you checked how leveling works in Mentzer's Immortals set?

It is interesting esp PP usage and all that. Tbh, I'd be surprised if anyone ever made it to bd an immortal from basic unless their DM was very very kind and generous. I played moldvay basic and there were piles of bones and bodies from the keep to the Caves of Chaos... our dead corpses that is.

 

[KeighnMcDeath]

In Legend of Kyrandia, Brandon gains four abilities over the course of the game. I think it counts as a character progression. Is it a RPG?

I loved that game on Amiga. Fucking awesome. PC with speech was ok but music sounded borked imho.

 

[PapaPetro]

I'd be surprised if anyone ever made it

unless their DM was very very kind and generous

Fortunate me...

 

[PapaPetro]

What about a scheme where you gain XP just by existing/surviving? Like a you constantly gain XP and it grows exponentially the longer you survive (compound interest). Then I'd you die, you use some of your XP to come back to life/respawn/reincarnate/resurrect?

 

[Butter]

What about a scheme where you gain XP just by existing/surviving? Like a you constantly gain XP and it grows exponentially the longer you survive (compound interest). Then I'd you die, you use some of your XP to come back to life/respawn/reincarnate/resurrect?

Could be interesting in a survival type game. As a designer, you probably don't want to encourage passive play though. If hiding in town and not going out to fight monsters earns the same XP but without any risk, players will do it and then complain that the game is boring.

 

[KeighnMcDeath]

Almost sounds like a gacha game on mobile.

 

[hayst]

What about a scheme where you gain XP just by existing/surviving? Like a you constantly gain XP and it grows exponentially the longer you survive (compound interest). Then I'd you die, you use some of your XP to come back to life/respawn/reincarnate/resurrect?

Reminds me of the rings from Sonic.

 

[PapaPetro]

What about a scheme where you gain XP just by existing/surviving? Like a you constantly gain XP and it grows exponentially the longer you survive (compound interest). Then I'd you die, you use some of your XP to come back to life/respawn/reincarnate/resurrect?

Could be interesting in a survival type game. As a designer, you probably don't want to encourage passive play though. If hiding in town and not going out to fight monsters earns the same XP but without any risk, players will do it and then complain that the game is boring.

I like the idea of being "penalized" if you chill out in a safe zone/town. But you earn RP Experience points or something instead; we don't want the cities to be full of slouches. Right?

 

[Zed Duke of Banville]

THAC0 would be great if when monsters you needed to hit that were below 1 or in the negatives inflicted more damage or caused criticals (i swear the more damage was in Mentzer tables of D&D companion or master set).

Yes, the 'Black Box' Master Set of BECMI added extra damage when the necessary 'hit roll' numbers were negative (though a natural 1 still missed), and it also contained optional weapon mastery rules, which increased damage and added various kinds of special effects depending on the weapon.

 

[KeighnMcDeath]

Aha! Master set. It has been a long while since I read that. Didn't this bit grt repeated in the Rules Cyclopedia?