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RPG Progression Schema

gurugeorge

Arcane
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8,095
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London, UK
Strap Yourselves In
I despise all systems that encourage you to collect XP, and then incentivize holding back on leveling.
Banking.
I hate it too.

That and dead levels where you get jack shit / some measly +5% to some stat.

I absolutely loathe banking, but for me it's purely a psychological quirk of mine to do with simple UI design. The mechanic is actually quite good, I think (you can choose to save points for something really big later) but few games seem to officially allow you to click a button and "bank" points - the points are just left dangling in a notional limbo that's not marked by the game as "banking" in any specific way. For some reason this irritates my autism no end.

There was once a now-defunct Fallout-like MMO called Fallen Earth, one of whose earlier iterations had quite a good hybrid system (I thought at the time) of mixed leveling-by-use (minor effect), automatic leveling by xp (major effect) and assignable levelling (every few levels you get a fixed amount of bankable points to spend on neat tricks). I think they cocked it up later, but at one time it had a sweet spot feel for me.

I tend to think that having fundamental attributes be too variable, and too much in the hands of the player, is a big mistake that drives a lot of problems (especially bloat). Fundamental attributes should be changeable only temporarily for desperate moments, and only via magic/tech/consumable boosts, otherwise they should be tied to class (in simulationist terms: this particular character must necessarily have the ballpark physical and mental attributes to be an X otherwise they couldn't/wouldn't be an X) and in developer control. What's wanted for the "sense of progression" is horizontal progression into neat tricks, plus progression in the sense of colour "conning."

Admittedly this knocks out ideas like building your own character from scratch or making non-optimal characters for a challenge, but that's a small price to pay for better balance: it's just better for the devs, and frees them up to do more interesting things, if they don't have player-choice variables in terms of fundamental attributes to contend with - or another way of putting it would be, that the cost of having too many variables for devs to juggle with sensibly is too heavy for the relatively minor benefit of the player having the freedom to build characters totally from scratch.

At the end of the day, the numbers are kind of a user-illusion. They go up, but what actually changes? You're still chipping away 10% of the enemy's health with a minor hit, 30% or so with a medium hit and 70% or so with a heavy hit: you're doing roughly the same "thing" all the way through the game, all that changes is the relative oomph and feel of the spectacle, and some numbers that all go up together and so cancel out. The only senses of progression that really matter are: 1) horizontal progression (more neat tricks to play with) and 2) psychologically speaking, relative level (green, blue, white, yellow, orange, red, purple "conning" relative to you - i.e. at the start of the game you can barely cope with 3 even conning (white) mobs, by the end of the game you can handily despatch 3 orange-conning mobs, but still have to be a bit careful with 3 purple-conning.

I've said this before and I'll say it again, progression in the sense of class levels should be more of an rp thing - i.e. an acknowledgement in the virtual world that you've attained a certain level of experience and skill, so you unlock things that are handy to your class, get special missions, etc., and 10 is quite sufficient for that.
 
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PapaPetro

Guest
And leveling up your THAC0 in goldbox series feels REAL GOOD.
I was gonna let you have your opinion but then you had to be a smart ass with the
facepalm.png
rating.
Your "REAL GOOD" fighter experience can easily be replaced with a single spell.
I always wondered what kinda fool would favor fighters, and now I know: those who are stuck in linear thought.
No wonder that class has no INT or WIS requirement...

It's the janitor class.
 

PapaPetro

Guest
I absolutely loathe banking, but for me it's purely a psychological quirk of mine to do with simple UI design. The mechanic is actually quite good, I think (you can choose to save points for something really big later) but few games seem to officially allow you to click a button and "bank" points - the points are just left dangling in a notional limbo that's not marked by the game as "banking" in any specific way. For some reason this irritates my autism no end.
It irks me to no end. I'm pathologically conservative with resources in cRPGs when it comes to stuff like potion/consumable use and even EXP use/allocation. So I will just end conserving things to my own detriment over the concern of what precarious unknown difficulty might emerge in the future; always "What if I need those potions for a huge OP boss later?".
Put another way if I could beat all games at Lvl 1, I would and I will.
At this point it's a self-imposed artificial challenge that I'm trying to break.
 
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mondblut

Arcane
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Aug 10, 2005
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Location
Ingrija
I was gonna let you have your opinion but then you had to be a smart ass with the
facepalm.png
rating.

What other reaction do you expect playing Captain Obvious? Wow, 1 in 20 akshually equals 5%, Eureka! :roll:

Your "REAL GOOD" fighter experience can easily be replaced with a single spell.
I always wondered what kinda fool would favor fighters, and now I know: those who are stuck in linear thought.

Try a game where resting comes with some strings attached, Einstein.
 

MerchantKing

Learned
Joined
Jun 5, 2023
Messages
1,814
There are experience points in all TES games. They just apply to your skill levels rather than your character level while skills get experience points from use rather than from killing enemies and completing quests.
 

PapaPetro

Guest
I was gonna let you have your opinion but then you had to be a smart ass with the
facepalm.png
rating.

What other reaction do you expect playing Captain Obvious? Wow, 1 in 20 akshually equals 5%, Eureka! :roll:

Your "REAL GOOD" fighter experience can easily be replaced with a single spell.
I always wondered what kinda fool would favor fighters, and now I know: those who are stuck in linear thought.

Try a game where resting comes with some strings attached, Einstein.
You just got phantomed zoned bitch
upyours.png
 

mondblut

Arcane
Joined
Aug 10, 2005
Messages
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Location
Ingrija
There are experience points in all TES games. They just apply to your skill levels rather than your character level while skills get experience points from use rather than from killing enemies and completing quests.

Then every game with skill train by use has "experience points". They always come with a hidden bar that needs to be grinded to completion.
 

0sacred

poop retainer
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MFGA (Make Fantasy Great Again)
Codex Year of the Donut
I think I like the Arcanum style of XP, leveling, with trainers for special things.

Having a single pool for everything is the most retarded system imaginable. Hurr durr, am I retard who can cast spells and make nukes by mixing used condoms with potatoes, or a smartypants academic who cannot? Should I be strong and agile, or a wimp cripple expert sledgehammerfencer? Muh choices!

You... know that skills, spells and schematics are gated by attributes? What you described is in fact impossible in Arcanum
 

Serus

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Small but great planet of Potatohole
I think I like the Arcanum style of XP, leveling, with trainers for special things.

Having a single pool for everything is the most retarded system imaginable. Hurr durr, am I retard who can cast spells and make nukes by mixing used condoms with potatoes, or a smartypants academic who cannot? Should I be strong and agile, or a wimp cripple expert sledgehammerfencer? Muh choices!

You... know that skills, spells and schematics are gated by attributes? What you described is in fact impossible in Arcanum
It doesn't matter anyway. Combat sucks donkey balls in Arcanum. At the same time most stats, items, schematics, etc... are either used for combat or are (mostly) useless. Or both.
 

Serus

Arcane
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Joined
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Messages
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Small but great planet of Potatohole
I was gonna let you have your opinion but then you had to be a smart ass with the
facepalm.png
rating.

What other reaction do you expect playing Captain Obvious? Wow, 1 in 20 akshually equals 5%, Eureka! :roll:

Your "REAL GOOD" fighter experience can easily be replaced with a single spell.
I always wondered what kinda fool would favor fighters, and now I know: those who are stuck in linear thought.

Try a game where resting comes with some strings attached, Einstein.
Atually 1/20 iss not the same as 5% to hit in D&Ds. Or more precisely it is but only in absolute terms which is a useless measure. In practice, relatively to our already existing chance of hitting, it can mean an increase to chance to hit of 100% to none. Assuming you fight enemies that are a challenge, most of the time more than 5%.
Just saying.
 

Axioms

Arcane
Developer
Joined
Jul 11, 2019
Messages
1,630
The best RPG progression system is Talents/Paths. 4-8 skills connected together which you can Tier up as a group and with synergy between similar things. So taking Earth, Water, and Mud or something or Crushing Weapons, Close Combat, and Heavy Armor. That prevents the problems of pure open skill systems where everyone takes the same "key" skills, lets you simulate traditional classes or archetypes if you really want, but also opens up the options as far as combat, crafting/professions, and socializing. You can have dozens of Talents/Paths and not have to worry super hard aboout balancing, and not have to create custom archetypes for every little thing like Pathfinder does. And as for "prestige classes" you get a similar impact becuase you need to take the prerequisite Talents to get the fancier stuff. Plus you can enable "Backgrounds/Religions/etc" the same as any other Talent.
 

MerchantKing

Learned
Joined
Jun 5, 2023
Messages
1,814
There are experience points in all TES games. They just apply to your skill levels rather than your character level while skills get experience points from use rather than from killing enemies and completing quests.

Then every game with skill train by use has "experience points". They always come with a hidden bar that needs to be grinded to completion.
Yes. Even if you're not told about the points, how they're distributed, or even how much you need to get the next number increase, they're always there in the background since that's the only way to record some sort of progress on a computer.
 
Joined
Jan 7, 2012
Messages
15,671
You... know that skills, spells and schematics are gated by attributes? What you described is in fact impossible in Arcanum

It is actually possible to be a retard archmage in Arcanum because spells are based on willpower and not intelligence. Which goes along with what I was saying about the attribute selection being bloated.
 

430am

Educated
Joined
Apr 11, 2023
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divine_cybermancy
What is your preferred system?
I really like Gothic's progression system. It's kinda like what you listed in the "Morrowind" section. You get some points each level, and to spend them you gotta have someone knowledgeable train you in the subject you're interested. Or you can get free points towards something from a relevant book or event. It makes for really immersive progression, you learn only what you aim for, and you are what you choose to pursue instead of having mandatory points every level in stuff you'd rather spec into something else. And you have to realistically get it from someone or somewhere relevant, the knowledge and skill doesn't just pop into your head suddenly upon killing a random numberless mook. I'm honestly surprised more RPGs don't go for that kind of progression, but to have that it needs characters and a world that works and makes sense on a personal gameplay level, and barely any coming out today can fit that bill.
 

Butter

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Joined
Oct 1, 2018
Messages
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All those RPG examples, and not a single good one. Step your game up, butterboy.
This thread isn't titled "Step up and flex your pleb tastes". If you think Pool of Radiance and Might and Magic III are bad that's a you problem. The point was to talk about the different ways RPGs handle progression.
 

PapaPetro

Guest
Atually 1/20 iss not the same as 5% to hit in D&Ds. Or more precisely it is but only in absolute terms which is a useless measure. In practice, relatively to our already existing chance of hitting, it can mean an increase to chance to hit of 100% to none. Assuming you fight enemies that are a challenge, most of the time more than 5%.
Just saying.
How do you "de-stochasticize" this then?
Take RNG out and replace it with what?
 

octavius

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Joined
Aug 4, 2007
Messages
19,913
Location
Bjørgvin
And leveling up your THAC0 in goldbox series feels REAL GOOD.
I was gonna let you have your opinion but then you had to be a smart ass with the
facepalm.png
rating.
Your "REAL GOOD" fighter experience can easily be replaced with a single spell.
I always wondered what kinda fool would favor fighters, and now I know: those who are stuck in linear thought.
No wonder that class has no INT or WIS requirement...

It's the janitor class.
Rest spammer detected.
 
Joined
Dec 17, 2013
Messages
5,462
All those RPG examples, and not a single good one. Step your game up, butterboy.
This thread isn't titled "Step up and flex your pleb tastes". If you think Pool of Radiance and Might and Magic III are bad that's a you problem. The point was to talk about the different ways RPGs handle progression.

They are bad. They might have been good at the time, but have not aged well at all. There are maybe 2-3 games from before 1995 worth playing today, and those 2 ain't it.
 
Joined
May 31, 2018
Messages
2,958
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The Present
There is also the perrenially overlooked Freedom Force, which has a point buy system. XP is the direct currency which you spend to unlock abilities and skills. Its also used to upgrade existing skills. XP cost is variable to how powerful the unlock or upgrade is. Some are gated and not accessible until a prior skill is upgraded to 3/5.

The only short-coming is that the characters are predefined in FF, so its strengths are underutilized. A classless PnP RPG that uses this style of advancement is Deadlands, and it is excellent.
 

PapaPetro

Guest
There is also the perrenially overlooked Freedom Force, which has a point buy system. XP is the direct currency which you spend to unlock abilities and skills. Its also used to upgrade existing skills. XP cost is variable to how powerful the unlock or upgrade is. Some are gated and not accessible until a prior skill is upgraded to 3/5.

The only short-coming is that the characters are predefined in FF, so its strengths are underutilized. A classless PnP RPG that uses this style of advancement is Deadlands, and it is excellent.
Yeah getting pigeonholed into a class/ability archetype kinda sucks.
Hence why dualclassing/multiclassing was such a gamechanger when it came out as a concept in D&D. Before that you'd have to play as an "Elf" or other composite classes like Bard.

D&D class lineage.png

The idea of building your own build how you wanted really took off on 3e and should've been embraced more by other game designers.
Theorycrafting new builds is the tits.
 

Kabas

Arcane
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Feb 10, 2018
Messages
1,927
Came to loathe any system that uses the rise-by-use skill system, aka "Gotta sit on my balls behind this mudcrab for a few hours 'cause otherwise my stealth skill is going to be useless".

Currently i am gravitating towards systems in which you're present with a very simple choice at the start and gradually get introduced to more complexity as the levels go on. The one fitting game that comes to my mind is not a RPG but a RPG/RTS hybrid Warlords Battlecry 2.
During the character creation you can only pick your race. This choice affects your base stats, morale bonuses/penalties when leading certain races, avaliable classes/specialities and the racial perks you get later.
msedge3ORuRMxfPJ.png

Some races can start with some extra abilities not listed here like the Minotaur ability to cure negative status effects by eating small critters or the usual undead immunities.

At level two you get to pick your base class. This choice gives you a +1 to your respective statistic and in case of priests and wizards also gives you an access to your basic magic sphere. More importantly this choice will determine the specialities you get to choose at level 3.
Specialities determine your primary/secondary stats, avaliable perks and in many cases immediately grants you an access to a proper sphere of magic.
msedge34MwQBCTRK.png

And only at level 4 you can start spending points on rising statistics, skills, various race/class perks, magic skills and spells.
It's somewhat similar to might and magic 6-8 in the sense that putting points into the same thing gets progressively more expensive and there are rapidly diminishing returns from rising any single skill too high. So even for a pure fighter it wouldn't hurt to put some points into a magic sphere you can get from a racial perk.

This system has a very enjoyable sense of progression, feels nice to go from a fat demon dude who can't run to a still fat demon lord who can call forth a succubus army at a moment's notice.
 
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