Review RPG Watch reviews Geneforge 4

[Atrokkus]

My point is: A great game will always be better with good artwork. Good artwork made Doom [also shareware] timeless, same for Daggerfall and many, many other games. I'd even call all rogue-likes nicely done, ASCII is a good style. There's really no reason to make the "stupid graphic-whores" immediately not interested in a game. A lot could be fixed by simply doing what I suggested earlier.

Quake3 is timeless, but nobody gives a shit about its graphic design.
ADOM is timeless, yet there are no graphics at all.
Starcraft is timeless yet it would be that way even if it had retarded 3d (a la war3) or retarded 2d graphics.

Try again bub.

 

[Jasede]

Hmm? I don't really see your point. I think ASCII-art in ADOM is great, and really helps the game, it looks so much better than, say, Gearhead. Quake3 I wouldn't know. Starcraft, ok, granted. Of course gameplay always trumps artwork, but good one certainly helps to make one appreciate a game more - Starcraft IS jaw-droppingly gorgous. Good points, even I don't fully share them.

 

[Amasius]

Avernum doesn't even have walking animations! I would be content if Jeff Vogel added a walking-frame! But he didn't manage that in what seems like a decade.

Play Geneforge 4. It has walking animations! How awesome is that!

It really has. Ok, the graphic still sucks, but Vogels writing is decent and that is more than you can say about 95% of the mainstream RPGs. And the Geneforges have unlike the Avernums a quite inventive scenario.

 

[MF]

I'll be honest here. I pirated Avernum as well. I played the demo, and wasn't convinced. Then I heard that Avernum was cool because of the scale of the game, so I pirated it to get a taste of that sense of hugeness. I never finished the game, so I'm glad I didn't buy it.

Geneforge, on the other hand, is awesome. I bought all four of them. After 2, I didn't even try the demo, I bought them right away. So I don't feel guilty about having played a few hours of unpaid-for Avernum. In retrospect, I do think that the demos restrictions Vogel has imposed are free enough to give you a good indication of what the full game is like. So piracy is not really necessary. I do it out of habit, though. I mean, I'm sure glad I never bought Oblvion. (I did buy Morrowind though)

By the way, is there anyone here who also thinks that Vogel's writing in Geneforge is strangely different from that of Avernum? Sure, you can tell it's Vogel by the sarcastic narration, but Geneforge has so much more character-intensive narration. It seems more personal.

 

[Claw]

Eh, I considered posting a reply, but then I noticed Section8 has already said everthing I meant to say.
Damn you!

So here's my +1.

 

[Ivy Mike]

The premise of Geneforge 4 is way better than most shit that's poured out of the industry nowadays. I've been messing around with the demo today and the game has some interesting takes on the morality of the Shapers vs the Rebellion. Nothing mind-blowing perhaps, but way better that the trite that's being forced fed down our throats by every untalanted hack that's out to make a buck.

Though I can't confirm it there seems to be a real opportunity to join either faction and work against the other, changing how the story develops as you progress through the game. What's so depressing about that simple fact was that my initial reaction was that that alone sold me on the game. That should be the bare minimum standard in any cRPG by now.

 

[MF]

Though I can't confirm it there seems to be a real opportunity to join either faction and work against the other, changing how the story develops as you progress through the game. What's so depressing about that simple fact was that my initial reaction was that that alone sold me on the game. That should be the bare minimum standard in any cRPG by now.

I can confirm it, and it is executed extremely well. There's even more sides to join later on, more paths to take. Hell, there's even the middle road, if you play it well. Also, it really matters and completely changes your course through the game.

Geneforge 4 is awesome. (Did I already say that?)

 

[Dhruin]

See, this is a classic example. There's no walking animation!!! Vogel's games are shit!!

But when he adds a walking animation people are too busy whining (or maybe they're so busy playing all the awesome RPGs released recently?) they don't even notice.

Are you too busy playing all the awesome RPGs released recently? Have you checked out Silverfall or maybe downloaded the new Dawn of Magic demo or fucked around with Oblivion for a while? When are we ready to just say pretty+crap content is more interesting than not pretty+good content?

 

[The Dude]

The only thing wrong with Avernum's interface is really how bloody huge it is, that along with the inability to change the screen res makes it a bit cumbersome. The graphics are nothing special, and the art (except for the hand drawn stills) is forgettable. It's a surprisingly decent hack and slash CRPG with a lot of exploration and a solid story underneath.

Geneforge 4 on the other hand, is probably the best CRPG of the last couple of years though. Choices and consequences a plenty, a good story and solid writing. No retarded hand holding or horribly easy gameplay. I totally agree with the review.

Gearhead

So, what the heck is wrong with Gearhead's ASCII?

 

[Jasede]

It conveys less sense of quality than Adom. Just a personal preference.

Also, I've just tried out the Geneforge 1 demo and I must say- I'm delighted! It has the animation, it has a nice interface- it's a great game so far! But a tad bit much combat.

"See, this is a classic example. There's no walking animation!!! Vogel's games are shit!!"
Jesus, calm down. A lack of animation really hurts the OMG IMMERSHUN of a game, a flaw that could have been fixed with minimal effort. It's funny how you try to put me into camp graphics whore when I just finished Wizardry IV after replaying [again] Ultima 4 [IT HAD ANIMATIONS, ZOMG].

 

[Ivy Mike]

So, MF, how are the other Geneforges when it comes to multiple-path, choices and consequenses extravaganza? I'm debating wether or not I should play them in order or just go ahead and buy nr 4 right now.

<snip>

*applause*
Those complaining about the graphics should shut up already. What the fuck do they even matter? You're bitching about the lack of player impact on the gameworld, meaningfull choices and consequences and whatnot of current cRPGs, and when a game FINALLY comes along that offers you all those things you dare to complain about "WALKING ANIMATHOUNS"?

[EDIT] Nothing personal there Jasede. Your post just above brought you back into the fold. I see your point about Vogel not changing graphics for most of his games, but he does have his reasons. I even think he stated them in an interview somwhere. Besides, complaining about the lack of a walking animation when you get all that other goodness is just a bad idea.[/EDIT]

 

[Sol Invictus]

Indeed. I would rather see some of the talented people tied up in the industry go independant.

I totally disagree with you. You only can change the system from within.

I'm with Dhruin this time.

It's safe to say that you do not deserve to have an opinion.

 

[Dhruin]

I'm not trying to put you there - your comments did it. I'm glad you like the Geneforge demo and G4 is more refined. Personally, I'd probably just run with G4.

My real point is: if you don't mind low tech, why wouldn't any RPG fan have checked out Geneforge already?

 

[Jasede]

Honest? The staleness of Avernum 1 and 2 demos really put me off. The lack of animation was -one- factor in this. I really didn't have the will, time, nor patience to play a game that looked, outwardly, to be made without love. [This sounds silly, I know]. GF 4, so far, has what I missed in Avernum - improvements to the interface, a walking animation [laugh all you will, it makes a big difference] and good, refreshing writing. I'll definitely buy this.

 

[MF]

So, MF, how are the other Geneforges when it comes to multiple-path, choices and consequenses extravaganza? I'm debating wether or not I should play them in order or just go ahead and buy nr 4 right now.

Geneforge 4 is the first one that is a little less heavy on the backward references, so you can get into it without playing the earlier games. However, the first game provides you with some pretty good moral ambiguity issues. These issues are the foundation for the problems found in the later games. The choices are a little more bipolar, but they're still there. The first part of Geneforge 1 is a little combat heavy, but it gets better after an hour of play.

The games are all great fun. In my opinion, Geneforge 4 is by far the best, even as a standalone game, but if you want to enjoy the series to the fullest, you should start with the first game.

I would advise you to play as a shaper, though. The agent and guardian classes just aren't as much fun in my opinion. I also think that the year between each Geneforge game is quite necessary not to get fed up with the gameplay. Playing them all in one go is a bit much, I think. Then again, after three, I was so engrossed in the setting and story that I couldn't wait to play the sequel.

 

[Psilon]

Geneforge 3 is the worst in terms of multiple paths; the only two ways to clear each island are full-rebel and full-loyalist. After the third(?) island, you're unable to switch paths without basically exterminating the entire enemy force singlehandedly.

Geneforge 4, according to Vogel, can be beaten as a pacifist: lots of running, stealth, Mechanics, and Leadership. I have not tried this approach myself, but I have no reason to doubt him on the matter.

For first-time players, I would recommend going in order through the series as a Shaper. Loyalist or rebel is up to you. Agents are fun if you want a bit more challenge, as you can't just summon tons of cannon-fodder creations, but they do provide a significantly different play experience. I would recommend against playing as a Guardian (GF1-3) or Warrior (GF4). Historically, the toughest enemies tend to have ridiculously deadly melee attacks. You do not want to be playing a close-combat character when that happens--character development is a little tricky.

Besides, artilas and wingbolts are loads of fun to summon. If you need a tank, just make yourself a thahd or battle alpha.

 

[Dhruin]

GF 4, so far, has what I missed in Avernum - improvements to the interface, a walking animation [laugh all you will, it makes a big difference] and good, refreshing writing. I'll definitely buy this.

Actually, I agree. That's why I say in the review that G4 is "friendlier" - the walking animation, 1024x768 res, slightly better lighting and other doodads all make it just a bit nicer and might tip it over the edge for people previously put off. Vogel does evolve the titles, albeit at a glacial pace. I still think the other titles have enough good stuff to get over the graphics (interface etc etc) but these last two are much nicer to play. Given that it's probably unlikely a newcomer is going to play all of them, I think you might as well start with A4 (if you'd like a more linear dungeon crawl) or G4 (if you'd like a deeper RPG with factions).

On the other hand, G4 is bloody hard (or at least, I found it so).

 

[z3r'0']

Goddamn! I just had my post all typed out and the fucking board ate it. Alas fuck!

Distilled post redux.

Basically I agree with Section8 and Jasede both. To a point.

Indie scene needs to grow - must grow, lest we face stagnation. Only with a different coat of paint. Still indie rpgs can deliver that which is sorely lacking in mainstream output.

Basic walking animations are not too much to ask for. Effective art direction brings much to
the table. Kickstarts imagination etc. - Ref. "Shadowrun Art"

Vogel and co. need our support.

 

[Annonchinil]

People who are already turned off by the graphics in G4 aren't going to be impressed by the improvements that are possible. It seems that the longer you have been playing games the less graphics matter, since you have seen much worse looking games and find it easier to adjust. Prettier graphics that would pander to a younger audience that doesn’t care for the game play in the first place would simply be a waste of money.

 

[Sovard]

Honestly, I'll have to fall into the "New art he's using killed it for me" group. I absolutely loved the Exile series, but I couldn't get into the whole Monty Python black knight model used in Geneforge, and the portraits of Avernum. Also, the Geneforge engine as a whole just doesn't appeal to me for some reason.

I still dig the 6-man Exile 2 and Blades of Exile every now and again, though. Oh yeah, and hey.. don't mention this... but I actually ordered Blades of Exile and he sent me Nethergate... yeah. I'm still bitter about the whole ordeal like a decade after the fact.

 

[Volourn]

"detail, because you didn't try them"

I did try them, bullshitter. What else are the demos for? R00fles!


" and the basis for your not liking is your graphics whoreness."

more bullshit. That must explain why i've done nothing but praise AOD despite it's not top notch gra[phics.Gra[hics are so far down my priorty list for what I look for what in RPGs.

You know why i hated the SW game demos? I'll tell you why, and it's real simple.

1. Boring shit towns that nobody relaly talks to you.

2. Pedestrian combat that is basically click on monster, and watch it die.

3. Non existing quests.

etc., etc.


If somehow the main games fix all these demos' problems when they're supposedly to be part of the game, WTF?

Hell, I gave the SW games' the old college try. I even posted on the SW forums for a bit until I eventually just had enough with the demos, and threw it into interweb trash.

Don't blame me for SW making shitty games. Blame SW.

 

[Dhruin]

Which games? The combat quality is variable but try G4 and tell me the other two points are valid.

 

[Xi]

People fall in love with their nostalgic feelings far too easily. Everything can be improved upon by an independent developer. We don't have to fear the Publisher bomb in this case. So, why not take more time in between releases, hire a few hacks to improve art, music, animation, interface, etc.(You don't have to spend a fortune!) Then release the game when it's had more then just a few roll/calcs added.

I think it would be amazing to see what an indie developer like this could do with a 500,000-1,000,000 dollar budget and no publisher issues. If the game is good enough, it will sell. Market it to all the major gaming sites(retail is dead) and you're golden. You'd remake your money just fine. Modern graphics(without all the fucking expensive bells and whistles) would work just fine. Focus on gameplay, but makes sure everything else is up to par too. The game is a sum of the total experience it provides. Nothing is complete until it's dead.

The problem with modern games is that publishers do more developing then developers. It's no wonder that indie developers always have better ideas but lack good ways to implement everything as a whole. It has nothing to do with shitty graphics but everything to do with lack of man power. I guess I'm just sick of this guy going solo. He needs to bring in some more people to help build the damn thing. This much is obvious.

 

[Volourn]

"Which games? The combat quality is variable but try G4 and tell me the other two points are valid."

iirc, The early Avernums and Genforges. It was a few years ago.

 

[Nedrah]

Good Art can help a lot to immerse you into the gameworld, to make you eventually fall in love with it. That has nothing to do with the "omg bloom bump mapping lolz" crap people like to pull out of their asses. Good artwork has nothing to do with fancy technology. There's a reason I'm not playing text adventures.