RPGs cannot have action-based movement or combat, Fallout: New Vegas is not an RPG

[Jezal_k23]

If "video game history/studies" ever becomes an academic artistic discipline, who do you think they'll refer to and what is going to be referenced in the first books and dissertations?

Not the Codex, I don't think so. Only the Codex cares about the Codex, everyone else hates it.

 

[FreeKaner]

I'm not ignoring them, I'm saying they aren't important or defining in this particular case, they are secondary to the direct shooting.

Subjective judgement, you can "direct shoot" all the time if you do not have the required skills, stats and items you will fail to kill anything. Go to old world blues area at level 1 with 10 guns skill and starting pistol and try to kill one of the mechascorpions, hint: you'll run out of ammo before you even make a dent. This is like saying it's not a RPG if you have to aim an AoE ability because your character becomes an "avatar" controlled by your aiming, despite the damage values and effects of the ability cast being dependant on your character sheet.

 

[Lacrymas]

It doesn't matter what you fail at, progressing in the game and getting new items is hardly a specific thing to RPGs. 0 to 100 in Guns only increases damage by 100%, if you can't make a dent with 0 skill without running out of ammo, you won't make a dent with 100 either. The important bit is later, though, that we can't point to any other game that is considered an RPG and say it's like New Vegas, but we can point to all the shooters, which is what is ultimately important in defining a genre.

 

[Infinitron]

The divide seems to be coming from a misunderstanding of the medium itself. C&C, non-linearity, roleplaying (as in choosing story and combat options without stats), affecting the story, etc. can be in every game ever due to the interactive nature of video games, while roleplaying based on stats can't be. Think Fallout and AoD. Basically, to qualify as an RPG, it has to fulfill some of these criteria -

1. Stats affecting your character's ability to influence the game world in and out of combat (Fallout, AoD). This is the crux of the matter and many RPGs don't get this right. This is where the "role" in "role-playing" comes into play. If you aren't playing a character with inherent strengths and weaknesses (represented by the stats) then there can't really be any "role"-playing, can there? You are playing yourself. This is also where the term RPG kind of portrays itself as inadequate because of -
2. "UI-driven" combat. That means combat should be controlled through the UI and not through your direct keyboard and mouse input, i.e. no "left-click for fast attack, right-click for heavy attack", you know the drill. The most common form of RPG. Think IE games and most blobbers.
3. You are playing defined individuals (or an individual), so no masses of faceless mooks like RTSes.
4. "Indirect movement", as in your character can only interpret movement commands, rather than pressing CTRL to dodge or something like that. First-person blobbers don't have dodging in that sense or movement outside of directions on the map, but it's much more intuitive to directly control those directions, and they fulfill the second and third criteria.

This is a myopic/juvenile-sounding definition for the RPG genre because it assigns both a user interface-based criteria ("UI-driven combat") and content-based criteria ("playing defined individuals") while not granting other genres the same consideration. Every game where you swing around a gun and press a button to shoot is part of the amorphous "shooter" genre but all RPGs have to follow your four point checklist? People think you're being a crank here because you're obviously just gatekeeping by throwing games with mechanics you don't like out of the genre.

"Roleplaying" as a thing that games do rather than a thing that games are remains the most satisfactory model IMO.

There are isometric tactical combat games that allow roleplaying.

There are first person shooter games that allow roleplaying.

Historically, isometric tactical combat games with roleplaying preceded first person shooter games with roleplaying, hence they get the privilege of being called just "RPGs" while the latter get saddled with modifiers like "action-RPG". If you want to be a traditionalist snob, that seems sufficient to me. There's no need to claim that the latter aren't RPGs at all.

 

[FreeKaner]

It doesn't matter what you fail at, progressing in the game and getting new items is hardly a specific thing to RPGs. 0 to 100 in Guns only increases damage by 100%, if you can't make a dent with 0 skill without running out of ammo, you won't make a dent with 100 either. The important bit is later, though, that we can't point to any other game that is considered an RPG and say it's like New Vegas, but we can point to all the shooters, which is what is ultimately important in defining a genre.

You are being inconsistent again. If I fail to aim by AoE ability in an isometric RPG my character will deal no damage, does this imply my character is my avatar in the game world or does it simply mean games aren't as disconnected from direct player input as you imply them to be? The line draw you between mouse aiming and direct input movement are both inconclusive. You have to make individual case basis argument for blobbers and New Vegas while the statements you make necessarily contradict each other. When you claim that direct input movement is fine in a blobber because it's intuitive, but say direct input attacking is not because it's intuitive it just falls flat on both accounts.

I am not against very narrow genre definitions by the way, if you want to say for example only isometric party-based games with predefined rulesets are RPGs, go ahead. However be consistent, you dig a ditch with these criteria that you cannot pull yourself out of without just dismissing games that are obviously not RPGs individually (like the dota example and diablo) even though they fully pass your criteria while attempting to be inclusive at the same time.

 

[fantadomat]

FNV is an RPG,it is not a CRPG. You do know that there is a lot of sub genres in RPGs,right?! You have a character creation,you have a ton skills and stats that you can affect,you can chose your dialogue option.....therefore FNV is an ROLE Playing Game. The camera angle is the last thing that defines an RPG!

 

[Lacrymas]

Genres have specific elements, Infinitron, I have not thought up that word and its definition myself. If that is "juvenile listing" then all academic literature that deals with genres is the same thing. How do games "do" roleplaying?

I am not against very narrow genre definitions by the way, if you want to say for example only isometric party-based games with predefined rulesets are RPGs, go ahead. However be consistent, you dig a ditch with these criteria that you cannot pull yourself out of without just dismissing games that are obviously not RPGs individually (like the dota example) even though they fully pass your criteria while attempting to be inclusive at the same time.

I am not inconsistent. I said that I have to make even more criterias for what an RPG is, therefore excluding DOTA because it isn't. This is how this thing works. We find a cluster of similar examples and start listing their shared attributes. Aiming AoEs is simply for convenience, you have to somehow have input in the game, it doesn't automatically discredit everything I am saying, these minute nitpickings say nothing. Yes, all definitions are perfect if we exclude things that contradict it, but this isn't the case here.

 

[FreeKaner]

Genres have specific elements, Infinitron, I have not thought up that word and its definition myself. How do games "do" roleplaying?




I am not inconsistent. I said that I have to make even more criterias for what an RPG is, therefore exluding DOTA because it isn't. This is how this thing works. We find a cluster of similar examples and start listing their shared attributes. Aiming AoEs is simply for convenience, it doesn't automatically discredit everything I am saying, these minute nitpickings say nothing. Yes, all definitions are perfect if we exclude things that contradict it, but this isn't the case here.

They are minute nitpickings as yours are, because they are reflections of what you consider essential. A genre made in exclusion instead of definition is fundamentally flawed, as it needs to constantly be defined to exclude. You also didn't touch the dissonance between the direct input movement and direct input attack in blobbers and new vegas. Where you excuse one for being intuitive and passing in other criteria, while you exclude New Vegas for that alone even though it passes rest of the criteria.

Meanwhile character sheet and freedom of agency are completely conclusive, and only describe few games and will always stay relevant.

 

[Lacrymas]

All games can have character sheets and freedom of agency. What are these "only a few" games that constitute it? I am excluding DOTA because it isn't similar to what we consider RPGs, not something else you think I'm doing. Why does only RPGs have a debate on what exactly they are? Because people like to lump arbitrary games into it, muddying up the sphere. Nobody is confused that CoD is a shooter or Age of Empires is an RTS. Yet we know there is something different going on, necessitating a different word.

 

[Sacred82]

even a chess piece has stats. Just sayin'.

 

[FreeKaner]

All games can have character sheets and freedom of agency. What are these "only a few" games that constitute it? I am excluding DOTA because it isn't similar to what we consider RPGs, not something else you think I'm doing. Why does only RPG have a debate on what exactly it is? Because people like to lump arbitrary games into it, muddying up the sphere. Nobody is confused that CoD is a shooter or Age of Empires is an RTS.

Whether all games can have them is irrelevant. Only a few games have them. All games can have indirect player input and stats too, and indeed there are more games that have indirect player input and stats especially in newer wave of games with "RPG elements" (I.E far cry, assassin's creed, dark souls, MGS, witcher2-3, watch dogs, overwatch, mmos, mobas, diablo/clones, even cod, BF and star wars shooters) meanwhile none of those games have freedom of agency.

 

[Infinitron]

These seemingly differing playstyles have something in common which is a character development in some format. May it be "stats", "skills" or "abilities".

Well, the classic debate on the Codex has been what that common element is. Back in the old days, guys like Vault Dweller spent a lot of time arguing that Baldur's Gate wasn't an RPG, or was barely an RPG.

 

[Lacrymas]

Character development can happen in arguably every genre. Even finding new items in adventure games is character development.

Whether all games can have them is irrelevant. Only a few games have them. All games can have indirect player input and stats too, and indeed there are more games that have indirect player input and stats especially in newer wave of games with "RPG elements" (I.E far cry, assassin's creed, dark souls, MGS, witcher2-3, watch dogs, overwatch, mmos, mobas, diablo/clones, even cod, BF and star wars shooters) meanwhile none of those games have freedom of agency.

What is freedom of agency in this context then?

 

[Sacred82]

even a chess piece has stats. Just sayin'.

But you can't update them and no, taking a pawn to the end row to upgrade it is not stat advancement. Read what I wrote more carefully.

I wasn't even replying to you in particular, so much for reading comprehension.

stat advancement is at the heart of many other games too (not chess). Still doesn't define an RPG.

 

[Lacrymas]

It most certainly is not. Finally, calling a game RPG is a collective gut feeling and I wouldn't call Doom an RPG.

Why is it not? It allows your character to do stuff they couldn't before, therefore development.

 

[frajaq]

Are JRPGs RPGs?

 

[FreeKaner]

What is freedom of agency in this context then?

When the game allows you to influence the narrative structure, by letting you navigate its content in your own pace and directive, especially in relation to and in interaction with player chosen attributes and skills. In essence, letting you create a character and provide you with mechanics to delve into the campaign and world that was created.

 

[Lacrymas]

In Deus Ex and Dishonored, you can influence the narrative structure and that even informs the gameplay. Are they RPGs? How many and what kind of choices do you have to be given for a game to constitute an RPG? Does BG1 have such choices? If it doesn't, is only PS:T an RPG of the IE games? There is literally nothing stopping every genre in existence to have narrative choices, given the interactive nature of video gaming. Devs don't do it because it's expensive and time consuming, not because they aren't trying to make an RPG.

 

[Lacrymas]

Deus ex is not an RPG because of its C&C. That is the point. Dues Ex is an RPG because you have control over stats of JC. In fact, Deus Ex without the RPG elements is still a fantastic game in and itself.

Yet, it's not like any other RPG you can point to, but you can point to shooters and stealth games and say Deus Ex is similar. That's the problem.

 

[FreeKaner]

In Deus Ex and Dishonored, you can influence the narrative structure and that even informs the gameplay. Are they RPGs? How many and what kind of choices do you have to be given for a game to constitute an RPG? Does BG1 have such choices? If that isn't, is only PS:T an RPG of the IE games? There is literally nothing stopping every genre in existence to have narrative choices, given the interactive nature of the video gaming. Devs don't do it because it's expensive and time consuming, not because they aren't trying to make an RPG.

As I said there are two things to have, that is both character sheet for player to choose and define their character and the freedom of agency. Those games are skirting borders of RPG genre the same way Diablo does. They provide a bit of flexibility of agency while diablo provides a character sheet.

 

[Jezal_k23]

Here's a soundtrack for you to listen to during your debate, making it more intellectual:

 

[Lacrymas]

Both Deus Ex and Dishonored have character sheets, with stats you can influence. Using charms and whale bone amulets in Dishonored and XP and upgrade cannisters in Deus Ex. It's just not the usual Strength, Dexterity and whatever else.

 

[Infinitron]

In Deus Ex and Dishonored, you can influence the narrative structure and that even informs the gameplay.

Deus ex is not an RPG because of its C&C. That is the point. Dues Ex is an RPG because you have control over stats of JC.

Each one of you is holding a piece of the puzzle.

Making narrative choices isn't enough.

Character building with stats isn't enough.

Put that together and you get - building a character for the purpose of making choices that meaningfully reflect the character's persona as defined by his build. A game that enables you to do that is a game that allows roleplaying, or in short an RPG.

The more those two aspects are cohesively combined together, touching each other in as many places as possible, the better an RPG it is.

 

[Sacred82]

stat advancement is at the heart of many other games too (not chess). Still doesn't define an RPG.

"define an RPG" is a mistake. I do not believe that RPG is a genre in itself. What we have are RPG elements and them being in other genres makes those games RPGs.

uuuhh

by that logic, having 'elements of other games' in RPG's would make RPG's part of those other genres.


Roleplaying doesn't necessarily involve weapons. Shooters by necessity have weapons in them though.

 

[FreeKaner]

Both Deus Ex and Dishonored have character sheets, with stats you can influence. It's just not the usual Strength, Dexterity and whatever else.

You play as a predefined character in dishonored whose "character sheet" only entails perks and abilities. Which does not relate to character's agency in the narrative structure.

Anyhow since Infinitron is here to diminish this argument by putting it to pits of general RPG discussion I will end it here. This exact discussion happened in that thread you originally quoted anyhow and it appears to be a stalemate.