RPGs cannot have action-based movement or combat, Fallout: New Vegas is not an RPG

[Mikeal]

I refuse to discuss the nature of rpgs before we've tackled the nature of paladins.

The paladins (from Latin palātīne, meaning 'servant, government official'), sometimes known as the Twelve Peers, were the foremost warriors of Charlemagne's court, according to the literary cycle known as the Matter of France. They first appear in the early chansons de geste such as The Song of Roland, where they represent Christian valour against the Saracen hordes inside Europe.

 

[Lacrymas]

How about we don't focus on the shooting (because, like I said - you don't actually have to shoot anything)? Also, if it bothers you that much, play it in quasi-TB (V.A.T.S.).

It has skills that matter (and get more usage than the ones in FO1-2), oodles of C&C, branching questlines, etc.

We can't not focus on the shooting because that's what makes it a shooter and not an RPG. Besides, is there any content that you are gated from if you don't have a particular stat or perk? At the top of my head, I think you need the cannibal trait to feed the companions to the cannibals, but I'm not 100%.

If you also cede that blobbers are not RPGs due direct movement control, even though you excused them in the previous post, then I'll concede that New Vegas isn't a RPG.

However it's kind of deranged that you accept Diablo/clones as RPGs because the criteria you set up happened to include it, you could add an extra criteria to exclude them like you did with faceless mooks to exclude strategy games. Age of Mythology has defined individuals you control by the way, which fits your criteria with the rest as well. You even choose defined Gods to give you particular powers. Its campaign also features you taking these defined individuals to an adventure where they have dialogue, they also have stats and skills that cannot be influenced with direct input.

Direct movement control is the most intuitive in the case of blobbers, constantly clicking with the mouse to move somewhere like Myst is kinda clunky, it can be done, though, and nothing would be lost. You still control defined individuals that you get to develop in whatever manner you choose. Heroes in RTS games don't have that luxury and are only more powerful units that act as commanders. Even if we count them as an "RPG element", there are other things in the game that obviously aren't and it's more correct to say it's an RTS. It's overdramaticized that I accept Diablo and the likes as an RPG, I'm just saying they are "more RPG" than shooters, especially due to menu-driven combat. And I still have too lax a definition of "RPG", usually genres are much more stricly framed in other mediums, nobody is going to accept wishy-washy definitions on an academic level for example, unless it's very, very well justified. Yes, there is genre instability in the 20th century, but that's different. And, again, if we count New Vegas as an RPG, then that word/genre loses any kind of meaning, since basically everything can be an "RPG". We should rename this forum to "Potentially Every Game Codex".

 

[Reinhardt]

New Vegas is an RPG

New Vegas is THE RPG!

New Vegas is Oblivion with guns.

 

[FreeKaner]

Direct movement control is the most intuitive in the case of blobbers, constantly clicking with the mouse to move somewhere like Myst is kinda clunky, it can be done, though, and nothing would be lost. You still control defined individuals that you get to develop in whatever manner you choose. Heroes in RTS games don't have that luxury and are only more powerful units that act as commanders. Even if we count them as an "RPG element", there are other things in the game that obviously aren't and it's more correct to say it's an RTS. It's overdramaticized that I accept Diablo and the likes as an RPG, I'm just saying they are "more RPG" than shooters, especially due to menu-driven combat. And I still have too lax a definition of "RPG", usually genres are much more stricly framed in other mediums, nobody is going to accept wishy-washy definitions on an academic level for example, unless it's very, very well justified. Yes, there is genre instability in the 20th century, but that's different. And, again, if we count New Vegas as an RPG, then that word/genre loses any kind of meaning, since basically everything can be an "RPG". We should rename this forum to "Potentially Every Game Codex".

The problem is you have set up a criteria, which is fine by the way, however the criteria is both retroactively justified and requires for you to make exceptions on particularities. It's neither conclusive nor as exclusive as you claim it is. It's in fact so inclusive that it includes Diablo/clones, possibly MMOs and MOBAs and with bit of a stretch some RTS and TBS as well.

Meanwhile if we consider RPGs games which you have capacity to RP, with a character sheet and freedom of agency, the list of games are reduced to two handfuls. It also very decisively excludes Diablo/Clones, MOBAs, Strategy games, action and adventure games without having to individually assess why they aren't RPGs.

 

[Sizzle]

How about we don't focus on the shooting (because, like I said - you don't actually have to shoot anything)? Also, if it bothers you that much, play it in quasi-TB (V.A.T.S.).

It has skills that matter (and get more usage than the ones in FO1-2), oodles of C&C, branching questlines, etc.

We can't not focus on the shooting because that's what makes it a shooter and not an RPG.

No, that would make it a shooter only if the shooting was the most important aspect of the game - which it really isn't.

Besides, is there any content that you are gated from if you don't have a particular stat or perk? At the top of my head, I think you need the cannibal trait to feed the companions to the cannibals, but I'm not 100%.

What is it with you and sacrificing companions? :D

 

[Quillon]

New Vegas is an RPG

New Vegas is THE RPG!

New Vegas is Oblivion with guns.

That's FO3 yo.

 

[Lacrymas]

The problem is you have set up a criteria, which is fine by the way, however the criteria is both retroactively justified and requires for you to make exceptions on particularities. It's neither conclusive nor as exclusive as you claim it is. It's in fact so inclusive that it includes Diablo/clones, possibly MMOs and MOBAs and with bit of a stretch some RTS and TBS as well.

Meanwhile if we consider RPGs games which you have capacity to RP, with a character sheet and freedom of agency, the list of games are reduced to two handfuls. It also very decisively excludes Diablo/Clones, MOBAs, Strategy games, action and adventure games without having to individually assess why they aren't RPGs.

Genres are usually retroactively defined, though, so that's the normal process. And yes, I did say my definition is too lax, because it if isn't the IE games, PoE, D:OS, the nu-Shadowruns, etc. won't count. It isn't as inclusive as you make it out to be, though, because the whole game has to be about defined individuals who have stats and with menu-driven combat. "Dungeon maps" and TBS games where a single map has you control the heroes aren't enough. For an example of different medium - a noir film which features a romance between the protagonist and the usual femme fatale isn't a romance (the genre) because it's not built around that. New Vegas is decidedly built around shooting, potentially going through the game without shooting once is an unusual circumstance, just like focusing on the fling between the noir protagonist and the chick and calling it a romance (the genre).

 

[FreeKaner]

Genres are usually retroactively defined, though, so that's the normal process. And yes, I did say my definition is too lax, because it if isn't the IE games, PoE, D:OS, the nu-Shadowruns, etc. won't count. It isn't as inclusive as you make it out to be, though, because the whole game has to be about defined individuals who have stats and with menu-driven combat. "Dungeon maps" and TBS games where a single map has you control the heroes aren't enough

That's the issue, the criteria you give does include dungeon maps, tbs games and mobas. You are only saying it doesn't because well obviously they aren't RPGs, despite them not invalidating any criteria you give. They strictly fit into all the points you have put forward and you are left to need to excuse them on individual points outside of your criteria. You as by your admission have to keep your definition infirm as well so they can include games that otherwise wouldn't be there but you consider to be RPGs. So the definition is fundamentally flawed, and there is something to RPGs that isn't in your criteria implicitly or explicitly.

 

[Lacrymas]

How is it an individual basis to say that a whole game has to be about defined individuals who have stats and menu-driven combat? That's as concrete as it gets. I'm not going through every game individually to say "ha! This specific thing doesn't fit into my definition". If we go with the strictest possible definition, only a handful of games would count as RPGs, we could certainly do that, of course, it is us who retroactively infer and extrapolate what an RPG is. New Vegas won't fall into any kind of RPG definition even then. Other genres, like MOBAs and whatever else, are focused on other things and are obviously not RPGs, yes. A minuet, which is in 3/4 time, isn't a waltz, which is also in 3/4 time, because it has other criteria, only one element isn't enough.

 

[fantadomat]

Lol if we try a little bit more this thread will have more posts than people playing the game.

 

[fantadomat]

I refuse to discuss the nature of rpgs before we've tackled the nature of paladins.

Paladins are gorgeous blond women in shiny armour that you would love to have in your dungeon.

 

[Quillon]

How is it an individual basis to say that a whole game has to be about defined individuals who have stats and menu-driven combat? That's as concrete as it gets. I'm not going through every game individually to say "ha! This specific thing doesn't fit into my definition". If we go with the strictest possible definition, only a handful of games would count as RPGs, we could certainly do that, of course, it is us who retroactively infer and extrapolate what an RPG is. New Vegas won't fall into any kind of RPG definition even then. Other genres, like MOBAs and whatever else, are focused on other things and are obviously not RPGs, yes. A minuet, which is in 3/4 time, isn't a waltz, which is also in 3/4 time, because it has other criteria, only one element isn't enough.

 

[FreeKaner]

How is it an individual basis to say that a whole game has to be about defined individuals who have stats and menu-driven combat? That's as concrete as it gets. I'm not going through every game individually to say "ha! This specific thing doesn't fit into my definition". If we go with the strictest possible definition, only a handful of games would count as RPGs, we could certainly do that, of course, it is us who retroactively infer and extrapolate what an RPG is. New Vegas won't fall into any kind of RPG definition even then.

I am not on the whole concerned about what counts or does not count as RPG. This is more about you giving a definition I find both inconclusive and not comprehensive.

Let's put under scrutiny your criteria with a game we can both agree is not a RPG, Dota.

1. Stats and skill points are innate and directly affect your capacity for interaction in the game.
2. The combat is entirely UI driven. Attacks happen automatically.
3. You are playing defined individuals with names, dialogue, interactions and backgrounds
4. The movement happens through mouse input and is indirect, includes pathing.

Hey, look it's even more of a RPG than blobbers because you don't need to make individual criteria excuses.

 

[Lacrymas]

Well, I can nitpick and say that you can't build any character differently with their skill points, so the only thing you do is gain experience points, and that is a thing even CoD has now (or whatever shooter that was). That's not the point, however, since genres have to point to a cluster of specific examples, in which DOTA isn't and we all know it, exactly how New Vegas isn't. That tells me that my definition is indeed too lax, though, and I should add even more criterias, which I certainly will do.

 

[FreeKaner]

Or instead of building a common law around what's essentially total of 4-5 games, you could make a definition that not only includes video games but also the pnp. That's the character sheet and freedom of agency.

Regardless, I am not too attached to notion of something being "RPG" formally/unofficially/officially or not.

 

[Lacrymas]

No, that's not a genre definition, every game can have character sheets and freedom of agency. Warcraft 3 certainly fits into that category. Unless we go the postmodernist approach and say that genres and their criterias are oppressive, limited and therefore incorrect, but isn't postmodernism frowned upon on this forum? If we are talking about genres at all, they have to be specific and point to specific examples.

 

[frajaq]

Except of course Sawyer is listening to bunch of fuckwits over at SA that do not even know what they want yet again, so he is left to be confused when he gives them what they demand but get reactions completely on the contrary.

Yeah he should listen more to the Codex, where people say New Vegas and Alpha Protocol weren't an RPG

 

[Lacrymas]

Yes, he should definitely listen to the Codex. If "video game history/studies" ever becomes an academic artistic discipline, who do you think they'll refer to and what is going to be referenced in the first books and dissertations? This is where the serious discourse is happening, not on SA or RPGWatch. Well, serious as much as it can be with the medium of forum posts.

 

[Iskramor]

What's this idiocy I'm reading about FNV not being an RPG?

Russian bisexual autistic drug induced nonsense nothing to see here move along. We should send tesak to visit lacrymas house though.

 

[FreeKaner]

No, that's not a genre definition, every game can have character sheets and freedom of agency. Warcraft 3 certainly fits into that category. Unless we go the postmodernist approach and say that genres and their criterias are oppressive, limited and therefore incorrect, but isn't postmodernism frowned upon on this forum? If we are talking about genres at all, they have to be specific and point to specific examples.

It's definitely more specific than "shooting things".

 

[Lacrymas]

It's not "shooting things", but "playing an avatar of yourself that you directly control", i.e. there's no "role" in that "role-playing", the shooting is just a symptom of that.

 

[Iskramor]

It's not "shooting things", but "playing an avatar of yourself that you directly control", i.e. there's no "role" in that "role-playing", the shooting is just a symptom of that.

May the tesak be with you

 

[FreeKaner]

It's not "shooting things", but "playing an avatar of yourself that you directly control", i.e. there's no "role" in that "role-playing", the shooting is just a symptom of that.

You are ignoring the whole attributes, skills, stats and items behind it. You are not really playing an avatar of yourself in New Vegas for directing the mouse where to shoot, not anymore than directing your mouse to where to shoot in FO1 anyhow.

 

[Jezal_k23]

I have enough experience to vaguely construct an image of what DF is like, so there's no need for me to play it to know what it kinda is.

Translation from delusional to reality - he searches internet cherrypicking opinions that confirm his specific assumptions while ignoring all the others, and then he sucks his own dick in a self congratulatory celebration of how brilliantly he predicted the state of the game without playing it.

 

[Lacrymas]

You are ignoring the whole attributes, skills, stats and items behind it. You are not really playing an avatar of yourself in New Vegas for directing the mouse where to shoot, not anymore than directing your mouse to where to shoot in FO1 anyhow.

I'm not ignoring them, I'm saying they aren't important or defining in this particular case, they are secondary to the direct shooting. Either way, the gameplay has more in common with shooters than RPGs, we can't point to any game that is considered an RPG that is like New Vegas, but we can point to all the shooters in the world and say the gameplay is similar. Lumping New Vegas in with the RPGs is an arbitrary gesture in that context.