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RPGs that are unanimously praised by people of refined taste that you never could finish.

Zboj Lamignat

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So when will people realize that all the "flaws" of F2 are present in F1 as well? Yes, F1 is a quite small game so there's not as much silly shit, but proportionally a significant amount of silly shit is there. That's, like totally, one of the distinguishable features of these games :rocketscientist:
 

Infinitron

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Codex Year of the Donut Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
You get the weird and the eccentric, too, something the Bethesda games kinda skipped on.

lol post-apocalyptic emo vampires lol anti-communist giant robots who throw nukes like footballs lol robots who think they're founding fathers of the united states lol costumed superheros and supervillains battling it out lol
 

almondblight

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So when will people realize that all the "flaws" of F2 are present in F1 as well? Yes, F1 is a quite small game so there's not as much silly shit, but proportionally a significant amount of silly shit is there. That's, like totally, one of the distinguishable features of these games :rocketscientist:

It isn't so much that F1 is flawless, but it's flaws are outweighed by the parts that are good. If you were to put combat above all else, I can understand why you'd rate F1 low, just as if you put amount of stuff you can do above all else, you might rate F2 highly. But the proportion of stupid things in F2 is much, much higher than if F1. Places like San Francisco or that small town where you get married are basically just there for "teh lulz". There's no comparable places in F1. Then you have places like the first two towns that are just about devoid of anything and feel tacked on. A couple of decent locations

The other thing is that F2 doesn't fix F1's flaws, it accentuates them. Combat is more numerous and longer in F2, so a mediocre system that felt OK in F1 really drags on you by the end of the game (I quit just before the end because I'd reached my fill). Item progression is screwed up more. In F1 you barely get anytime using combat armor, in F2 you barely get any time using combat armor or power armor. Stat progression is screwed up (finding out that maxing your stats is a waste in the game). They made small arms more viable and maybe made a couple of other skills better?

Fallout 2 is Fallout with worse gameplay, a worse world, worse story, and filled with "lulz" and sex jokes. If you're starved for more Fallout or really like being able to do random things in a game, I can see why you might like it, but that doesn't make it a good game.
 

Yoshiyyahu

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there were very few places in F2 where combat dragged ass, the only place that i can remember clearly was in the sierra bunker if you alerted all the robots at once. the oil rig was like that sometimes but most of the guards were pretty tough with power armour and gauss guns so it wasnt as easy as smacking around the robots in the bunker

the story did seem a bit lame, i wonder what tim cain and co had in mind exactly when they wrote most of the main plot and how much different it is to the real story. whats wrong with the humour though? i can understand people getting a bit upset because it wasnt as serious as the first game, but i really enjoyed all the jokes and funnies in F2

as for the locations, i liked chinatown/hubs just as much as, say, junktown. the two raider locations in F2 were much better than the khans in F1. i guess it comes down to fallout 1 having less stuff but being more concise in quality whereas 2 had more stuff and some of it rubbed people the wrong way
 

PorkaMorka

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Most don't given the kinds of games they've said they haven't finished. Since there's hardly been any RPG's released in a decade, it's not like they've been so busy playing other awesome titles that they couldn't spare the time to finish at least one of the classics. What exactly DO they play then? Fags of War? COD? BF3?

If you avoid the sunk cost fallacy and simply stop playing the game when it stops being more fun than other activities you could be doing, then you will not finish very many games. Especially not many RPGs.

While RPG elements make games more compelling, they also have a significant potential to gradually destroy the gameplay of the genres that they're attached to, due to the focus on numbers going up.

For example, if you take a tactical turn based game and everybody has relatively even stats, then the focus will be on careful positioning and planning. But if you add a layer of RPG elements, there is the potential that the game gradually could become unbalanced and trivialized because the player's character grows to become more powerful than the developers planned. At this point, the core tactical gameplay would be weakened or destroyed, as the player can win through attrition without the need for careful maneuvering.

If an RPG looks interesting on the surface, but major flaws emerge part way through the game, nothing obligates you to keep playing.
 

commie

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Defending the consoletards.

Well RPG's are all about numbers going up so I don't understand what you are trying to say. If you don't like this mechanic, a mechanic inherent in the RPG in one way or another, then why are you playing RPG's in the first place?


You get the weird and the eccentric, too, something the Bethesda games kinda skipped on.

lol post-apocalyptic emo vampires lol anti-communist giant robots who throw nukes like footballs lol robots who think they're founding fathers of the united states lol costumed superheros and supervillains battling it out lol

Well I wouldn't call that weird or eccentric. Crap maybe.
 

PorkaMorka

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Defending the consoletards.
Well RPG's are all about numbers going up so I don't understand what you are trying to say. If you don't like this mechanic, a mechanic inherent in the RPG in one way or another, then why are you playing RPG's in the first place?

I don't care about numbers going up but I do prefer to play characters who represent specific individuals (instead of generic units like "terran space marine") and who are defined by statistical parameters. So yes, I like RPG elements in my games (at least in theory).

My point is that RPG elements are not an unmixed blessing. If you're making a First Person Shooter with no character progression, then it's relatively easy to balance your game. You only have to take into account what guns the player might have when you are playtesting your game. Otherwise, everybody will have the same basic character.

But if you're making a First Person shooter with strong RPG elements, it becomes very difficult to balance your game. Instead of playtesting for one basic character, you now need to test the game and balance it for the entire range of possible character builds that the player might have. It's virtually impossible to achieve perfect balance for every possible character build.

This potential problem applies to all games with RPG elements and it has become a much bigger problem now that players are no longer allowed to fail. The developer will balance the game to let the weaker builds succeed. That means the stronger builds will often find the game becoming too easy.

This problem has significant potential to get worse as you move farther and farther through a RPG. The range of potential builds generally continues to expand as more customization options are opened up and fewer and fewer of these builds will have been playtested. So the longer you play, the less likely it is that the game will retain proper balance.

If you quit games when they stop being fun, as I do, then you'll probably end up quitting a lot of RPGs mid way through.

On topic example: Some of my favorite console RPGs are Tactics Ogre and Final Fantasy Tactics, but I still quit playing each of them about 75% of the way through when I acquired certain characters who trivialized the game.
 

sea

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I don't care about numbers going up but I do prefer to play characters who represent specific individuals (instead of generic units like "terran space marine") and who are defined by statistical parameters. So yes, I like RPG elements in my games (at least in theory).

My point is that RPG elements are not an unmixed blessing. If you're making a First Person Shooter with no character progression, then it's relatively easy to balance your game. You only have to take into account what guns the player might have when you are playtesting your game. Otherwise, everybody will have the same basic character.

But if you're making a First Person shooter with strong RPG elements, it becomes very difficult to balance your game. Instead of playtesting for one basic character, you now need to test the game and balance it for the entire range of possible character builds that the player might have. It's virtually impossible to achieve perfect balance for every possible character build.

This potential problem applies to all games with RPG elements and it has become a much bigger problem now that players are no longer allowed to fail. The developer will balance the game to let the weaker builds succeed. That means the stronger builds will often find the game becoming too easy.

This problem has significant potential to get worse as you move farther and farther through a RPG. The range of potential builds generally continues to expand as more customization options are opened up and fewer and fewer of these builds will have been playtested. So the longer you play, the less likely it is that the game will retain proper balance.

If you quit games when they stop being fun, as I do, then you'll probably end up quitting a lot of RPGs mid way through.

On topic example: Some of my favorite console RPGs are Tactics Ogre and Final Fantasy Tactics, but I still quit playing each of them about 75% of the way through when I acquired certain characters who trivialized the game.
Lots of good points here and I have to agree with them (although usually I still keep playing an RPG long enough to complete it if I find the story and characters interesting).

An similar problem can arise in RPGs when the core mechanics of a game are also too shallow to sustain the length of the experience. I have tried and failed to replay The Witcher 2 to experience the new Enhanced Edition content, the different story arcs etc. but because character development and progression are so boring and have relatively little influence on actual gameplay, I get bored quickly even if I am currently enjoying the story.

This extends to RPG elements in other games as well, because my expectations for growth and development over the course of the game are raised. However, usually the RPG elements don't pay off and as a result the let-down that I'm playing "just" a shooter etc. is often enough to turn me off of playing, since once I realise the RPG elements are at best useless or at worst a poorly-veiled Skinner box, I also realise I've probably mastered the game mechanics as well and thus no part of the game will ever challenge or engage me outside of the narrative (which is usually fun at most once). This happened with Borderlands and RAGE for me. Both had potential but the RPG side was so woefully handled that the end result was a lot of decent-to-crap action without any interesting hooks.

I don't really equate this with simple ease - it's a problem with the systems design, not just a balance issue. Often it comes from a cultivation of aesthetic choice without the true gameplay rules to back it up. For instance, on the surface some RPGs have promising-looking mechanics, with tons of stats, skills and so on to use. These make a great first impression and get my mind going about how I'm going to build my character or party... however, after a few hours it becomes clear that many of the differences are at best aesthetic.

For example, the difference between Skyrim's axes and swords of various types are almost negligible save for damage and attack speed, which means that once you've done any sort of melee combat, you've already done it all. Magic is basically the same - the spells follow almost exactly the same model throughout, with only very minor aesthetic differences (blue = ice, red = fire, purple = shock, turn off the graphics and sound effects and you'd never know which is which). This is also a huge problem for Diablo III vs. Diablo II, as the singular "DPS" stat renders all weapon variety useless.

Dragon Age's RPG mechanics, meanwhile, sound good on paper because the system distills a lot of the petty distinctions between D&D-style classes that only really matter in a tabletop realm down to the basic archetypes, with the only limit being skill point availability - and is theoretically more flexible as a result (I like the D&D rules but personally I don't think they fit the CRPG realm at all). In practice however, the actual distinctions are extremely boring - and many of the skills that had so much potential to make combat fun and exciting are often mechanically identical (most of the warrior skills are just stun/knockdown + damage). Once you reach a certain point in either of these games, the systems stop being engaging because of the lack of complexity and growth over the course of the experience.

Older RPGs also fall victim to this of course, but I find that they tend to have more mechanical complexity as time goes on, or at least other considerations to take into account, that make up for the problems "in the moment." When you design a game's mechanics entirely around the relative short-term thrill of combat, but the system that those short-term elements are tied into isn't compelling in its own right and doesn't provide any interesting goals, obstacles and so on, it doesn't matter how huge your game world is or how fun combat is - the experience is still going to start dragging very quickly.

That's why Skyrim, despite having more enjoyable and exciting moment-to-moment gameplay than, say, Arcanum (especially in combat), gets old after 20 hours while Arcanum, with its interesting long-term goals, growth of skill set and active abilities, growing number of companions, etc. can keep you going even though it's by all accounts horrendously balanced, sloppy and incoherent.
 

Horus

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Actually if you are agreeing that FO2 is for people who prefer GAMEPLAY rather than a plot(you can count decent RPG plots on one hand)...then it actually makes FO2 a GOOD GAME and not a bad one.

Gameplay? What was that, that somebody thought the mediocre combat of Fallout needed to have multiple boring dungeons filled with trash mobs? That there's almost no C&C? Want to help Vault City? Want to spy on them? Why not do both! Hell, I was working for all four games in New Reno at the same time. Perhaps you like collecting porn mags? Or getting sex traits so you can please mob bosses wives? Please, tell me about Fallout 2's gameplay.

Well i don't think you can actually manage to design great encounters for world that use firearms,if you don't use trenchs,crouching mechanics and give player more tactical options you will have it even harder.
Fallout 2 only has bigger world and better items but it felt like diablo 2,it had lost its spirit but had more content.

Don't get me wrong i loved fallout 2 but its more like a expansion pack for fallout 1,not a masterpiece that most people think.
 

SCO

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Shadorwun: Hong Kong
In practice however, the actual distinctions are extremely boring - and many of the skills that had so much potential to make combat fun and exciting are often mechanically identical (most of the warrior skills are just stun/knockdown + damage). Once you reach a certain point in either of these games, the systems stop being engaging because of the lack of complexity and growth over the course of the experience.

It's always like that. I don't play rpg's for the combat, except if they are turnbased and by sirtech and are called jagged alliance. In fact, the first thing i try is a combat-less playthrough - at least that is a challenge to break the game that actually may make you think.
 

sea

inXile Entertainment
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It's always like that. I don't play rpg's for the combat, except if they are turnbased and by sirtech and are called jagged alliance. In fact, the first thing i try is a combat-less playthrough - at least that is a challenge to break the game that actually may make you think.
I don't know about "always" but at least in theory you can have an RPG with combat that stays entertaining and has enemies that are challenging to fight across the game. Introducing new damage types and resistances, new mechanics like damage-over-time attacks (for players and enemies), and making it integral to exploit them in order to win should be more than enough. Attributes can also be made important in a lot of ways, for example high dexterity causing a character to be hard to hit with slower weapons but easier to hit with faster ones, or low constitution making the target susceptible to elemental attacks.

All RPG combat really is is jugging ability management, using the appropriate ones at the appropriate times - this is more than enough to make for entertaining gameplay, it's just that usually RPGs are balanced so anyone can win without much challenge, so the nuance of the systems isn't given room to grow. My qualms have more to do with systems that don't have much inherent depth to them in the first place.
 

SCO

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Shadorwun: Hong Kong
It's never anything interesting. Damage over time? If it's a party realtime you're actually playing a rts, if it's single player realtime it's boring potion chugging, if potions have cooldowns you're just timing, without actually having to time anything because of the perfect feedback of modern games

And how they disguise the same ability as 4 class 'variants' durrr.

Yawwnnnn even simplistic TB. God, i'm having flashbacks to avernum already.

Resistances -> simplistic memory game (if you lose, which you won't since you're a hp sponge), or simple name/species/feeback deduction - that's slightly better since at least it integrates a little with the world.

I much prefer breaking a game into pieces so i can avoid what they desperately pass as the main content.
It's more entertaining.
 

SCO

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I'm also partial to other perversions like:
not leveling on a levelling game.
using stealth and running away where you are not meant to
using hth and stealth in gun games (JA2)
soloing
multiclassing
stealing loot by stealth (geneforge 5 was great for this).
 

Riel

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Bros, I have a horrible confession to make here, and I hope that due to the voluntary nature of this confession you will go easy on me. I did not finish Arcanum, in fact I only played it for a few hours. The shitty combat frustrated me. It's also a pretty complex game, so if you're frustrated at the get-go by the shitty combat and somewhat ponderous UI then it's hard to invest the amount of concentration and time necessary to really get into it.

I will try it again someday, I promise. I PROMISE.

:oops:

I will grant you Arcanum's combat was crappy ... even the greatest lover of it will grant you that, lol. But seriously what was wrong with the interface?? You could personalize it in great detail to only need to use one-two clicks for most actions ... some of the games today have much shitier interface than that.

Arcanum's strength was mostly in atmosphere and side quests, the atmosphere was great and fresh compared to typical D&D bullshit and the side quests, holly hell, never seen a game so varied as it, geting into that gentlement club prostituting yourself as a female character is something I've never seen again in a CRPG, damn you could even prostitute yourself for 50 coin at the whorehouse in Tarant too, lol. Or start a war between the two great humans cities, or prety much anythign you wanted ... even a bioromance :P
 

MisterStone

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Yeah bro, I think the problem was I used Drogs (?) mod that increased the playable screen size, and it made the UI a little wonky or sth. I'm kind of foggy about it.

I do want to try it again someday, even if it really is more like a cool adventure game (without decent combat) instead of a full-blooded RPG.
 

laclongquan

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The problem of Fallout 2 is equipment progression. Especially armor.

The should be one or two suits of combat armours advanced in NCR as a reward or hard to get loot. There should be increased rate of encounters around the SF city (gangs, mutants) and Navarro (patrol), with the effect of making sure only parties with greatest equipments can fight through the quarantine. Since it's not, it's broken.

On another note, Fallout 2 world is much bigger than Fallout 1. You got a few towns in 1, barely memorable other than Mad-Max Junktown. Every town in Fallout 2 is distintive. Fallout 2 make more scenes of a huge Wasteland than Fallout 1. F1 feel barely a patch. A plain, several counties patch together.
 

Yoshiyyahu

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i think killap's mod increases the enclave encounters near navarro. anyways, perhaps a mod that hides navarro until you get the quest from that village mystic guy or matt from the bos, kinda like how vault 13/sierra army depot etc are hidden
 

commie

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i think killap's mod increases the enclave encounters near navarro. anyways, perhaps a mod that hides navarro until you get the quest from that village mystic guy or matt from the bos, kinda like how vault 13/sierra army depot etc are hidden

Yeah but then you'll have rage about 'linear crap', 'Bioturd design'.....:M
 

Surf Solar

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On another note, Fallout 2 world is much bigger than Fallout 1. You got a few towns in 1, barely memorable other than Mad-Max Junktown. Every town in Fallout 2 is distintive. Fallout 2 make more scenes of a huge Wasteland than Fallout 1..

Fallout 2 feels that way because it is a themepark, similar to what Oblivion, Skyrim and all this shit does. Here on this corner, come there, theme xy we show you here, theme abc just on the next corner, so much fun!11

F1 feel barely a patch. A plain, several counties patch together

And this is wrong in a postapocalyptic game that is supposed to be placed relatively shortly after a nuclear war why?
 

DragoFireheart

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Arcanum. It just got so boring after a certain point. Maybe cause the combat system is piss easy.
 
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Don't really understand the "themepark" complaint. Omg, New Reno had mafiosi and Sanfran had kung fu, gimme nondescript towns with generic thugs anyday.

Anyway, since we are talking about Fallout...

Darker and Edgier page on TV Tropes said:
Although the Fallout series isn't exactly cheery to begin with (what with being set in a post apocalyptic wasteland and all), the first 2 games mainly focus on various towns and civilizations rising from the ashes and trying to rebuild, and contained a lot of dark humour and pop culture references, especially Fallout2, which is considered the silliest game in the series. Fallout 3, on the other hand, was much darker by comparison, being set in and around a sparesly populated and desolate Washington D.C., which was directly hit by the bombs, where every day is a fight for survival as towns and groups barely manage to stay alive. Because of this, it is generally considered the darkest and most depressing game in the series.

:neveraskedforthis:
 

sser

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Bethesda said something about taking a lot of inspiration from Cormacy McCarthy's "The Road" and it definitely shows up in Fallout 3. It was mentioned earlier that their game does have quirkiness in it, but the way it is implemented is total shit. You start the game in a terribly bleak environment of blown out schools and the leaning husks of blast marked houses. You can go into a room and find two skeletons holding one another as the apocalypse came and that's basically the gist of the game right there. Cannibalism and grim as fuck shit is all around a lot of the wasteland. And then... yeah, giant American Robots and costumed tropes and etc. Fallout 2 made the eccentric a part of its basic design. It openly welcomed the strange and it makes it all gel with the whole post-apocalyptic story, whereas Fallout 3 just kinda injects it in there from time to time in bombastic ways like someone popping a balloon at your grandfather's funeral.
 

sea

inXile Entertainment
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Don't really understand the "themepark" complaint. Omg, New Reno had mafiosi and Sanfran had kung fu, gimme nondescript towns with generic thugs anyday.
The problem is that the locations were at times so defined by their themes that it broken verisimilitude of the world. New Reno for instance is a town entirely built around mobsters and drug addicts... how the hell does it continue to survive? What does it produce? Why does anyone go there? What role does it have in the world's economy? There's nothing wrong with having a theme for a location, but when it's all there is to that location, and it actively flies in the face of establishing a believable world, that's an issue. Not all of Fallout 2 is like this - Redding, Modoc, Vault City etc. are very believable - but that only makes the silly stuff stand out more.

Also, I suppose it's one of those "if you played Fallout 2 first" things. Fallout 1 went to great lengths to establish locations that made sense in the context of the game world. Fallout 2 is really, really jarring next to Fallout 1 in a lot of places, but that might not be a problem if you never had the expectation of Fallout 1's logical consistency.
 

laclongquan

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Look at its location: New Reno has easy access with the mine of Reddings, and straddle the trade route of North South and East West. From the agriculture villages and trapper towns of Modoc and Klamath, you must go through it to get to Broken Hills. From the agriculture towns of NCR, your annual cattle herds must go through it to travel northward to Vault City. New Reno Vice City make it an attractive stopping point for all those trade caravans full of horny drivers and guards.

Its resource is chemical and drugs. The Enclave buy chemicals from one of NR Family. Vault City compete with New Reno in selling chems and drugs to Reddings. New Reno is nearer to broken Hills than VC, so it's easier to get electricity there than to VC, though VC got its own source in Gekko plant. With electricity it's pretty easy to produce some drugs. New Reno is exporting the strongest known drug in Wasteland: Jet.

It's also a good place to trade for weapons and upgrades. VC? No. Gekko? No. Broken HIlls? No, Redding? No. If you are feeling very adventurous you can buy weapons in NCR, pass through a wasteland filled with mutated creatures.

Top place to export entertainment in form of holo porn vids. SF is too far to affect much.

All in all, New Reno is a classic service port/town.

I knew from the very start the tits and asses of New Reno's prostitutes will blind ya. I am still proved right.
 

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