Vapourware RPGs that can legitimately be called masterpieces

[Vic]

But theres lots of reasons to why story in Kotor 1 is better.

take away the big twist at the end and what have you got? classic bioware gather the 4 widgets degeneracy. no, thank you.

 

[d1r]

Might & Magic III
Might & Magic: World of Xeen
Might & Magic VI
Demon's Souls (Original)
Dark Souls (Prepare to Die Edition)
Diablo I
Diablo II
Icewind Dale I
Baldur's Gate I
Baldur's Gate II
Elder Scrolls: Morrowind

 

[Ryan muller]

It doesnt matter if you tried to save Kreia, this doesnt checkmate her point. If the force tried to save her, it was still the force's purposes which still act like fate pulling its strings.

She's in checkmate because a malevolent Force doesn't allow for the redemption of its ultimate enemy. Despite rearing an Ubermensch, it rejects her conclusions, yet she's still proud of it. There would be no call for pride if the Exile was merely a tool rather than in concord with the Force. The joining of the individual will with the collective will to act with unified purpose.

Kreia was wrong. Humanity itself generates part of the Force, and her assumption that things would be better without its influence is based on nothing.

Kreia was wrong. Humanity itself generates part of the Force, and her assumption that things would be better without its influence is based on nothing.


>Based on nothing

She quite vocally spelled against the notion of a Jedi having to live in balance with the force or be corrupted, the force plays for both sides, it gives power to redeem, save and move but also can corrupt, distort and manipulate.

Many jedis were changed by the taint, to the point of loosing the notion of humanity they used to have, losing honor or even going against their loved ones. Kotor 1 itself shows a destroyed Juhani being victim of the taint, as well as Bastilla who never even wanted to go to the dark side

Again, its not possible to say Kreia was wrong because "you could save someone"

Jedis always do that, redeeming people and saving them from the hands of the dark side isnt new to star wars. Kreia knew this happened all the time and still had her point.

It also doesnt matter if she can foresight what actually could happen, her theory and criticism is more direct than that: it doesnt matter.

Its not about if the force can help the jedi or not, dark side is still a thing, wars are still happening because of the force, it still is pulling its strings. This shouldnt happen

This is Kreia's vision. Its not possible to see this as wrong because in any way possible you cant say the future with the force is complete free will, saying it would deny the existence of its corruption. Denying the dark side itself.

It doesnt matter what Kreia felt in her last moments, her criticism of the force was right.

 

[Ryan muller]

But theres lots of reasons to why story in Kotor 1 is better.

take away the big twist at the end and what have you got? classic bioware gather the 4 widgets degeneracy. no, thank you.

Gathering a number of artifacts is nothing but a premise (widely based on journey to the west) it doesnt matter to the actual execution of a story nor it does mean its worse by having it. In fact, the idea of exploring this world in search of this relics while Malak not only searches you but things are slowly twisting and the dynamic between dark side and light side are becoming tighter over time is part of why story is so compelling.

 

[Vic]

Gathering a number of artifacts is nothing but a premise (widely based on journey to the west) it doesnt matter to the actual execution of a story nor it does mean its worse by having it. In fact, the idea of exploring this world in search of this relics while Malak not only searches you but things are slowly twisting and the dynamic between dark side and light side are becoming tighter over time is part of why story is so compelling.

I'm sorry but do you play video games for the story?

Bwahahahaaha...

Seriously, it's not as deep as you describe. Also, fuck story in video games, read a book instead.

Story in video games can never be worth of serious discussion, it's just context to the combat. And in the worst cases it is used to disguise unimaginative copycat gameplay.

 

[Ryan muller]

Gathering a number of artifacts is nothing but a premise (widely based on journey to the west) it doesnt matter to the actual execution of a story nor it does mean its worse by having it. In fact, the idea of exploring this world in search of this relics while Malak not only searches you but things are slowly twisting and the dynamic between dark side and light side are becoming tighter over time is part of why story is so compelling.

I'm sorry but do you play video games for the story?

Bwahahahaaha...

Seriously, it's not as deep as you describe. Also, fuck story in video games, read a book instead.

Story in video games can never be worth of serious discussion, it's just context to the combat. And in the worst cases it is used to disguise unimaginative copycat gameplay.

Stories are context in fact, the thing is that for a game, context is everything and largely the difference of being invested into something or simply not caring enough for it.

If a player has to deal with a well written compelling villain, it will feel more engaged and invested into actually killing said villain, same is valid for the entire plot

Without a good plot, you only go for mechanics alone, which is not necessarily what makes a game bad, but certainly less well crafted into its details.

The opposite rarely is found true, gladly, i do enjoy gameplay on Kotor which already makes it a 100x times more compelling than lets say, arcanum

 

[Vic]

If a player has to deal with a well written compelling villain, it will feel more engaged and invested into actually killing said villain, same is valid for the entire plot

I think that's true for casual players, how many times are you going to kill the evil bad guy? You'll opt out of being a storyfag eventually and start appreciating what video games really are about: the gameplay.

 

[Vic]

i do enjoy gameplay on Kotor which already makes it a 100x times more compelling than lets say, arcanum

Did you play the other bioware games too? They all use the same gather 4 widgets formula which gets really on my nerves

 

[Ryan muller]

If a player has to deal with a well written compelling villain, it will feel more engaged and invested into actually killing said villain, same is valid for the entire plot

I think that's true for casual players, how many times are you going to kill the evil bad guy? You'll opt out of being a storyfag eventually and start appreciating what video games really are about: the gameplay.

I play for the whole package so cant say i wouldnt care for one or another, instead for what the game truly is as a product.

 

[Vic]

stories in video games are just a pile of dung. You can't have a good story if you have to write it around gameplay. Even the games with the best stories are amateur garbage compared to real good stories. Sorry.

 

[KörangarTheMighty]

She quite vocally spelled against the notion of a Jedi having to live in balance with the force or be corrupted, the force plays for both sides, it gives power to redeem, save and move but also can corrupt, distort and manipulate.

The Force doesn't corrupt, it speeds the already corrupted to certain ends. Kreia is wrong because she believes corruption comes from without, when it comes from within.

"That place... is strong with the Dark Side of the Force. A domain of evil it is. In you must go."
"What's in there?"
"Only what you take with you."

"If you choose the quick and easy path you will become an agent of evil."


She has the whole idea ass-backward. She thinks its deeply unfair that she's been given superpowers and because she has them, she has to abide by certain rules to stay normal. "Why, oh why isn't life fair?!" says Kreia. Incredible woman moment.
When all of life itself is generating the Force, it's she who deserves the unilateral decision of taking it away, naturally. She's perfectly fine with exerting her own will over the will of others, as long as it's something that she wants. She believes that the Force is parasitic to life when it is symbiotic.

Lastly, Kreia believes the struggle for balance has always been, and will always be when this is objectively false. Balance in the Force returns at the end of RotJ according to Lucas.

 

[boot]

what balls Lilura had to include Warband as an rpg masterpiece. I agree with her wholeheartedly.

And as to your discussion on Kotor 2 and Kotor 1. At least Kotor 1 is a fully complete game and didn't need modders to finish the game for them.

In my opinion these modders when finishing the game messed around with much of what should have been left alone. Thinking of Nar'Shada or however you spell it here. Those companion combat areas threw off the pacing and felt disjointed. Playing as a companion is cool once in a while but on Nar'Shada it happens half a dozen times or more (just going on memory here). Almost makes you want to play unmodded.


Also Kotor 1 has Bastila going for it. That's about it. Kotor 2 dwarfs it in complexity. Neither are masterpieces though.

 

[KörangarTheMighty]

My list:

The Witcher: EE
KotOR II
KotOR
Icewind Dale
Baldur's Gate II
Diablo
Aidyn Chronicles
Guild Wars
Deus Ex: Human Revolution (Not sure if truly RPG tbh.)

Some that still bear investigation/reevaluation that I suspect will make their way onto the list:

Planescape: Torment
Deus Ex
Mask of the Betrayer

Bearing in mind that I'm not much of a combat fag, these are games that made me feel a certain way. In my book, any game that managed to do that and stuck to memory over time qualifies, and there aren't many.

 

[Vlajdermen]

Super Lesbian Animal... ah, nevermind, you've heard it already.

 

[LarryTyphoid]

The "moral balance" shit in KotOR 2 is retarded. I ended up dismissing it because Kreia was the only one going on about it and she ends up being literally fucking evil anyway. The idea that good and evil need to balance is retarded and is completely absent from the original films. There is no "light side", there's only "the Force", and the "Dark Side" is a corruption of it. Pretty simple.

 

[Faarbaute]

Never forget the beggar sequence. KotOR 2 is a fraud.

 

[NecroLord]

Never forget the beggar sequence. KotOR 2 is a fraud.

 

[Falksi]

The best KOTOR game is the one based on Star Trek, Mass Effect.

 

[Faarbaute]

Never forget the beggar sequence. KotOR 2 is a fraud.

Let's lecture directly at the player about agency and about how our actions can have unforeseen consequences.

Let's do this through an unavoidable confrontation where you have no agency and nothing you do matters.

Big brain moment at Obsidian HQ.

 

[roshan]

Here's my list:

Shadowrun Dragonfall
Planescape Torment
Fallout 2
Arcanum
Baldur's Gate 1/2
Icewind Dale
Underrail

 

[Ryan muller]

The "moral balance" shit in KotOR 2 is retarded. I ended up dismissing it because Kreia was the only one going on about it and she ends up being literally fucking evil anyway. The idea that good and evil need to balance is retarded and is completely absent from the original films. There is no "light side", there's only "the Force", and the "Dark Side" is a corruption of it. Pretty simple.

Going for that either

The whole "the dark side already exists within ourselves" is rather stupid

Dark side is the corruption of the force by essence, people touched by the taint become evil and thats it.
Star wars is way simpler than a lot of people try to think as.

Said simplistic being again, why i think Kotor 1 fits better within its canon.

As for difficulty, i simply dont care much (altought kotor 2 was a bit too easy for my tastes)

Being hard or not isnt all that important to me when it comes to combat and encounter design.

Not to say, rarely ive ever found any games praised here in the codex, hard per se

Fallout 1 was piss easy, Ultima series with maybe 2 exceptions was also piss easy (U5 had the most challenging combat alongside maybe Exodus), Planescape torment is braindead for the most part, hell even the dark heart of uukrul wasnt remotely close to being hard.

Ive been going back to a lot of older 80s/early 90 titles such as dark sun, darklands,etc.. and ive noticed the thrend of obscurity of knowing what to do to proceed being more of a challenge than the actual combat of such games

 

[NecroLord]

As for difficulty, i simply dont care much (altought kotor 2 was a bit too easy for my tastes)

I think its because very few enemies use force powers. Only the endgame Sith use them, and even then, it hardly makes any difference.
Kreia was Avellone's insert.

 

[Ryan muller]

As for difficulty, i simply dont care much (altought kotor 2 was a bit too easy for my tastes)

I think its because very few enemies use force powers. Only the endgame Sith use them, and even then, it hardly makes any difference.
Kreia was Avellone's insert.

This and the fact you can go beyond level 20, at the endgame i was insta killing everything in my way, it got way too easy since ive had way more tools compared to kotor 1's level 20

 

[Adolf Shitler]

Darklands
Das Schwarze Auge Trilogie
Gothic
Gothic II

 

[mord]

Lands of Lore Throne of Chaos
Quest for Glory: Shadows of Darkness