sawyer wants rpg to evolve

[Blakemoreland Hybrid Boss]

Yeah, roasts aside, 90's era throwback RPGs are basically a dead end. That's nice if you're a fan of playing retro RPGs, but not so much if you're a dev who is bored of making them.

So now fans of proper cRPGs are enthusiasts of a niche genre of cRPG and need to get along with the times and the preferences of burnout developers? That's a complete inversion of values. One of the typical features of fanboys is that they talk as if the purpose of cRPG development is to please developers' interests instead of players.

Tyranny seemed quite promising in that regard, and it was made with a tiny budget..

It had shallow combat system and it was mostly linear.

I disagree with this. We've seen at least 3 major evolutions of RPGs in the last decades:

-MMORPGs (now mostly dead after the WoW singularity)

-Cinematic (Think KoToR, Witcher 1&2, and Mass Effect, now also dying)

-Open World (Goes all the way back to Ultima but new tech makes exciting things possible)

I don't even.

The genres are essentially consolidating; we're seeing Cinematics and Open World styles merge (like the Witcher 3). Developers are also putting online features into everything. Shit, even JRPGs are getting in on the racket with FF15. Naturally it becomes hard to compete as budgets balloon to insane proportions; other than Bethesda and Bioware, what American company is even making mainstream RPGs anymore? Instead everyone is just slapping XP bars into everything. Only euro-RPGs (ELEX, KCD) are trying to compete directly. It's also possible these mainstream AAA RPGs are just going to go away, getting subsumed into other genres like FPS and action games.

Jeeesus...

 

[JarlFrank]

Yeah, roasts aside, 90's era throwback RPGs are basically a dead end.

Are they, though? The genre, as it has evolved during the 90s, still has so many places to go into. The classic-style RPG has several avenues of evolution left, so many things that can be improved and innovated. More interaction, more reactivity, more complexity, even new gameplay elements can all be built on the foundation of the classic 90s RPG.

Heck, look at the 90s as an era. What's in there? Ultima VII. Ultima Underworld. Realms of Arkania. Dark Sun. Bladur's Gate. Fallout. The later Wizardries and Might and Magics. The early Elder Scrolls games. Diablo.

WHOA, looks like every single RPG subgenre has its roots in the 90s and whatever you're going to do with the genre, it's building upon the shoulders of a game that was made in that era. Inevitably. No way around it.

And if you were living in the late 80s you might say that the Wizardry-likes and Ultima-likes are a dead-end because there have been dozens of those without much innovation, but then warp a few years forward and you get Ultima VII and Wizardry 8 and they're taking the basic formula of their predecessors but evolve it into new directions that you wouldn't have prophesized in the late 80s because the subgenres seemed so stagnant back then.

It's not an issue of the subgenre. It's an issue of the developers not going into the directions they could go, even if that direction is pretty obvious if you look for it properly.

 

[Serus]

Pen and paper gaming is a perfect source of inspiration for cRPG creation and if your game is trying to replicate the PnP experience and even remotely manages to approximate it in a computer game, then you've got a really goddamn good game on your hands.

Then they should start to play other pen & paper games more often instead of 2e, 3e, 3.5, 5e I keep hearing when I have just basic idea what they refer to

Its not about ruleset, tis about theme, world, lore whatever else.

You can make 3.5e game in different themes and worlds. Not saying it's a good idea (it probably isn't) but 3.5 used to be a base for many different sorts of stuff, from high fantasy to SF. It used to be THE system of choice to make a pnp of a movie or tv-series franchise.

 

[fantadomat]

Pen and paper gaming is a perfect source of inspiration for cRPG creation and if your game is trying to replicate the PnP experience and even remotely manages to approximate it in a computer game, then you've got a really goddamn good game on your hands.

I kind of disagree with this. They are good source and inspiration,but they shouldn't be replicated by the game. Dev should try to put something of their imagination and originality. Also it should be made for computer not just copy paste. The most important thing,for me,is for the game to be fun.

Oh and i would love to see another Drakensang game. Kind of tier of all the d&d games.

 

[Blakemoreland Hybrid Boss]

Nigga just click the upmost link in my link-drenched signature:

https://www.realms-beyond.com/

Oh, now I see. Ok, thanks!

 

[Serus]

Pen and paper gaming is a perfect source of inspiration for cRPG creation and if your game is trying to replicate the PnP experience and even remotely manages to approximate it in a computer game, then you've got a really goddamn good game on your hands.

I kind of disagree with this. They are good source and inspiration,but they shouldn't be replicated by the game. Dev should try to put something of their imagination and originality. Also it should be made for computer not just copy paste. The most important thing,for me,is for the game to be fun.

Oh and i would love to see another Drakensang game. Kind of tier of all the d&d games.

Oh i don't know. There are some good cRPGs that are adaptations of pnp systems so imho there is no need for a system to be specifically made for computer crpg. An adaptation can work just as fine if done right. That's not saying that adapting is the superior way - just that both approaches can work.

 

[Serus]

Some1 asked why CRPGs need to evolve ?
What I think is that they should de-evolve first. Go back to the 90s and only THEN start the evolution again from there.
Consider the current mainstream cRPGs as an evolutionary dead-end. Dinosaurs (except dinosaurs were cool).
Just pick where the 90s left. Late Wizardry games are a good and often brought example of the direction where cRPG genre might have gone but didn't. Pick from there and follow that path. Or Daggerfall. Instead of going where Beth took it - go the other way.

 

[JarlFrank]

Pen and paper gaming is a perfect source of inspiration for cRPG creation and if your game is trying to replicate the PnP experience and even remotely manages to approximate it in a computer game, then you've got a really goddamn good game on your hands.

I kind of disagree with this. They are good source and inspiration,but they shouldn't be replicated by the game. Dev should try to put something of their imagination and originality. Also it should be made for computer not just copy paste. The most important thing,for me,is for the game to be fun.

Oh and i would love to see another Drakensang game. Kind of tier of all the d&d games.

Oh i don't know. There are some good cRPGs that are adaptations of pnp systems so imho there is no need for a system to be specifically made for computer crpg. An adaptation can work just as fine if done right. That's not saying that adapting is the superior way - just that both approaches can work.

Ultimately it's about what you want your game to be and how the ruleset supports that direction. Adapting the D&D system to a spacefaring adventure with a lot of space battles where you have motherships and fighter squadrons duking it out is probably not such a good idea because inherently, the D&D ruleset doesn't support such things and you'd have to create a lot of your own rules to the point of it deviating far enough from D&D that you may as well not have used it in the first place. Might even be more work to adapt the rules to your game in that case, than it would be to just develop your own ruleset from the ground up.

For example Arcanum's tech vs magic system with the different aptitudes wouldn't have worked by adapting a random P&P ruleset because it's a specific system that needs its own rules.

Also anything without magic is kinda meh with D&D rules since magic is such a huge part of the system.

 

[Saxon1974]

Great Sawyer wants to get on the action RPG first person shooter train. Oh well I always have my old games to go back and play

 

[2house2fly]

This is some moronic bull Prime Junta. It would imply that RPGs have been doing the same thing over and over. We have so many different directions they have already gone that they are effectively evolving without *snigger* Sawyer's help.

That's concerning. Why would RPGs need to "evolve"?

 

[Prime Junta]

It would imply that RPGs have been doing the same thing over and over. We have so many different directions they have already gone that they are effectively evolving without *snigger* Sawyer's help.

Such as?

 

[Kyl Von Kull]

Great Sawyer wants to get on the action RPG first person shooter train. Oh well I always have my old games to go back and play

...the thing he’s most famous for is Fallout: New Vegas. He’s been on that train for the better part of a decade and, frankly, F:NV is proof positive that you can make an FPS that’s also a legit RPG.

 

[Delterius]

It would imply that RPGs have been doing the same thing over and over. We have so many different directions they have already gone that they are effectively evolving without *snigger* Sawyer's help.

Such as?

ELEX.

 

[FeelTheRads]

F:NV is proof positive that you can make an FPS that’s also a legit RPG.

Not really.
NV is a shit FPS. Only thing it's proof of is how badly you can ruin a game by putting it into a genre it doesn't fit. Or that Bethesda is shit at gameplay. Whichever.

 

[mondblut]

F:NV is proof positive that you can make an FPS that’s also a legit RPG.

For larpers, maybe. For the rest, it's still a shitty fps for the unskilled with dialogs slapped on top.

 

[Delterius]

Great Sawyer wants to get on the action RPG first person shooter train. Oh well I always have my old games to go back and play

...the thing he’s most famous for is Fallout: New Vegas. He’s been on that train for the better part of a decade and, frankly, F:NV is proof positive that you can make an FPS that’s also a legit RPG.

And its not just New Vegas which is a terrible FPS. Skyrim and TES in general are all horrible action games. And also horrible adventure games.

Sawyer is an aging man who wants to sell games. That's innovation for you: 10 million copies or more.

 

[Prime Junta]

ELEX.

It’s the Codex’s Miyata. Whatever the question, it’s the answer.

 

[Delterius]

sawyer: rpgs need to evolve

but then google translate gives me

www.nowgamer.com/news/5141/bioware-we-want-call-of-dutys-audience

makes you think

 

[Grampy_Bone]

So now fans of proper cRPGs are enthusiasts of a niche genre of cRPG and need to get along with the times and the preferences of burnout developers? That's a complete inversion of values. One of the typical features of fanboys is that they talk as if the purpose of cRPG development is to please developers' interests instead of players.

That's not quite what I said, I was trying to sympathize with the sentiments Sawyer was expressing. Just stepping into someone else's shoes. Mostly I agree with you.

It's hubris to declare one's own personal preferred style of RPG as the only "true" version of the genre. That's just not how genres work.

Are they, though? The genre, as it has evolved during the 90s, still has so many places to go into. The classic-style RPG has several avenues of evolution left, so many things that can be improved and innovated. More interaction, more reactivity, more complexity, even new gameplay elements can all be built on the foundation of the classic 90s RPG.

Heck, look at the 90s as an era. What's in there? Ultima VII. Ultima Underworld. Realms of Arkania. Dark Sun. Bladur's Gate. Fallout. The later Wizardries and Might and Magics. The early Elder Scrolls games. Diablo.

WHOA, looks like every single RPG subgenre has its roots in the 90s and whatever you're going to do with the genre, it's building upon the shoulders of a game that was made in that era. Inevitably. No way around it.

And if you were living in the late 80s you might say that the Wizardry-likes and Ultima-likes are a dead-end because there have been dozens of those without much innovation, but then warp a few years forward and you get Ultima VII and Wizardry 8 and they're taking the basic formula of their predecessors but evolve it into new directions that you wouldn't have prophesized in the late 80s because the subgenres seemed so stagnant back then.

It's not an issue of the subgenre. It's an issue of the developers not going into the directions they could go, even if that direction is pretty obvious if you look for it properly.

Those evolutions have already occurred though. Diablo became a subgenre to itself. Ultima birthed MMOs and Open World games. Dungeon Crawlers died or were incorporated into other subgenres. Storytelling ceased to be a defining aspect of any one genre. RPGs subsumed Adventure games and killed them. Tactical combat RPGs mostly gave way to cinematic RPGs.

So far all I am seeing with these 90's revival kickstarters is attempts to roll back the clock, not innovate or evolve. As a fan of those games I am not complaining but it doesn't seem sustainable long term. I'd much rather have Obsidian making their style of games with modern bells and whistles than to be pointed towards the latest Assassin's Creed game when I ask for an RPG.

I am a big fan of 3.5 D&D so your game looks dope as hell, sign me up for that. But what are you doing to evolve the genre over, say, Icewind Dale 2?

 

[fantadomat]

Pen and paper gaming is a perfect source of inspiration for cRPG creation and if your game is trying to replicate the PnP experience and even remotely manages to approximate it in a computer game, then you've got a really goddamn good game on your hands.

I kind of disagree with this. They are good source and inspiration,but they shouldn't be replicated by the game. Dev should try to put something of their imagination and originality. Also it should be made for computer not just copy paste. The most important thing,for me,is for the game to be fun.

Oh and i would love to see another Drakensang game. Kind of tier of all the d&d games.

Oh i don't know. There are some good cRPGs that are adaptations of pnp systems so imho there is no need for a system to be specifically made for computer crpg. An adaptation can work just as fine if done right. That's not saying that adapting is the superior way - just that both approaches can work.

Ultimately it's about what you want your game to be and how the ruleset supports that direction. Adapting the D&D system to a spacefaring adventure with a lot of space battles where you have motherships and fighter squadrons duking it out is probably not such a good idea because inherently, the D&D ruleset doesn't support such things and you'd have to create a lot of your own rules to the point of it deviating far enough from D&D that you may as well not have used it in the first place. Might even be more work to adapt the rules to your game in that case, than it would be to just develop your own ruleset from the ground up.

For example Arcanum's tech vs magic system with the different aptitudes wouldn't have worked by adapting a random P&P ruleset because it's a specific system that needs its own rules.

Also anything without magic is kinda meh with D&D rules since magic is such a huge part of the system.

I am ok with take some PnP systems and using them as the core of the game. As long as they do a few changes put their own mark in it. PnP ruleset are are not gospels and they do have some stupid rule. Creators shouldn't restrict themself around the rules and be afraid to deviate. I am not talking about going batshit crazy and making the rules useless. Also they should use ruleset that goes well with their vision/idea. As a whole i would ratter see more original stuff than D&D. Anyway if your game comes out on gog,i would buy it. What is your position,if it is not a secret? I would assume that something to do with writing.

 

[2house2fly]

Why do RPGs need to "Evolve", again?

Same reason diversity is our greatest strength and we need multiculturalism.

What an extremely relevant post to the current discussion.

 

[Delterius]

Stagnation is death.

Wrong. Skyrim is death. Therefore, Josh Sawyer is a death cult.

 

[Blakemoreland Hybrid Boss]

Pen and paper gaming is a perfect source of inspiration for cRPG creation and if your game is trying to replicate the PnP experience and even remotely manages to approximate it in a computer game, then you've got a really goddamn good game on your hands.

cRPG developers who say otherwise are shooting themselves in the foot. They should be teaching a new generation how to appreciate this type of game and reinforcing their mindset instead of throwing their old fans under the bus to attract cRPG haters.

sawyer: rpgs need to become like FPS so I can finally make some serious money out of this.

Fixed for accuracy.

 

[unfairlight]

Ich liebe Call of Duty!
Ich liebe Bethesda!
t. jay sawyer

 

[Blakemoreland Hybrid Boss]

F:NV is proof positive that you can make an FPS that’s also a legit RPG.

Not really.
NV is a shit FPS. Only thing it's proof of is how badly you can ruin a game by putting it into a genre it doesn't fit. Or that Bethesda is shit at gameplay. Whichever.

This. The cool things like the skill/stat checks and reactivity involving the factions are cancelled by the sandbox approach. The world is so big that most people don't have the patience to walk through all that again in order to reveal what they are missing,