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Second Neverwinter Nights 2 expansion

Warden

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In your nightmare.
Walkin' Dude said:
This is stupid. Considering I get to play ~20-30 minutes at a time, this sort of system would unfairly screw up someone like me, compared to some kid who can spend all night playing. There are better ways to achieve the same goal, if you even consider it a worthy design goal.

It's not. You just don't play this particular mode - problem solved. :)
And of course - it would be better if they differentiate the load from the save&quit point(which would not be charged) and the load from a normal save. See.. easy, no need to panic. :p That's what I actually had in mind but was lazy to elaborate.
 

cardtrick

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Drunken Irishman said:
What's the difference between Walkin' Dude and The Walkin' Dude?

Yeah. I've never been able to figure it out, so I just choose to consider them the same person.
 

sabishii

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I think, sadly, Warden has a good point. In games with "real" resurrection I've been known to abandon dead party members and just pick up a new NPC. So I imagine they could do the same to me.

In implementation, I wouldn't make it so drastic that if the PC died, the game is over. Instead, make it based on influence, as Lestat somewhat alluded to. If you have high influence with your party members, they'll rez you. If not, they won't. This would add more gameplay impact from influence, which is always good (given an improved implementation of influence, of course).

Now, this is just a basic idea, so I can see some problems such as it being the norm to have good influence with some party members, so that this aspect of gameplay wouldn't be encountered as often. So things could be tweaked, such as making influence much harder to obtain, having "being rezzed" based on some tweaked computation of all the influences in the party... Perhaps whether or not your NPCs are evil. =p

As for whether the party members can rez you, e.g. based on strength, situation, etc., I agree with those that say that is just too much work for too little.
 

Starwars

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Not exactly talking about benefits, but I think there needs to be more... hm, sort of content for having low influence with characters in order to make the system truly good. Ifyou add the the "rez if influence is high" thing, then it will just mean that people will break character even more often to suck up influence for the gameplay bonuses.
I think this probably happened to a lot of people in Mask of the Betrayer at least.
I also believe it would be wiser to hide all influence gains and losses for this purpose.

So, more content for someone with low influence as well. This is tricky though. I mean, a player is likely to have the companions he actually likes in his party, and leave the ones he doesn't like behind.

I'd alsolike to see a return of what KOTOR2 started which was that you could actually influence your companions in some ways. Thing is that it's easier in Star Wars because you can explain or sort of get away with a lot of things through the "mystery of da force", like how characters would become more evil/good depending on your alignment.
 

Lumpy

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Okay. So if you are in the Founder's Sanctum, fighting Araman. He kills you. Wut happens? Do the remaining party members continue fighting? What if there's a conversation after winning the battle? After that, what? Do they visit the founder themselves? That would screw the whole thing up. Do they drag you back to Mulsantir? Terribly anticlimatic, if you ask me.
And all the internal logic problems. The horrible, horrible problems.
Resurrection must die. Permanently, that is.
Btw
 

sabishii

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Starwars said:
Ifyou add the the "rez if influence is high" thing, then it will just mean that people will break character even more often to suck up influence for the gameplay bonuses.
How exactly would that be breaking character? It seems pretty in-character to suck up to another so that they would help you out when things get tough.

Lumpy said:
Okay. So if you are in the Founder's Sanctum, fighting Araman. He kills you. Wut happens? Do the remaining party members continue fighting? What if there's a conversation after winning the battle? After that, what? Do they visit the founder themselves? That would screw the whole thing up. Do they drag you back to Mulsantir? Terribly anticlimatic, if you ask me.
And all the internal logic problems. The horrible, horrible problems.
True... Oh well.
 

Walkin' Dude

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Drunken Irishman said:
What's the difference between Walkin' Dude and The Walkin' Dude?

The tag.

cardtrick said:
Yeah. I've never been able to figure it out, so I just choose to consider them the same person.

That is why I decided to steal his avatar. Now there will be no point in trying to differentiate us.

It is kind of the opposite of having an alt. Instead of multiple names for one person, it is multiple people with one name.
 

Gromnir

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am not a fan o' auto-resurrect. however...

am understanding that some folks 'round here have a very narrow and refined notion o' what is role-play. a character that cannot die (any such character) is antithetical to what is teh Role-play, no? fine. is nothing wrong with such an attitude, but there has gotta be an understanding that notions o' true freedom o' role-play & non-linear gameplay is largely mythical, and that when attempting to maximize such stuff you invariably diminish impact o' storytelling. is no true non-linear storytelling model that would work in modern crpgs... is 'bout as likely as the room full of monkeys banging on typewriters and ending up with Shakespeare. is possible in an infinete universe? maybe, but sure as heck is unlikely. do whatever you want, go in any direction, and end up with a coherent and engaging yarn? room full o' monkeys.

josh loves to point to those old choose-your-adventure books as models o' non-linear story telling... but they ain't. reduce 'em down and even those is not rpgcodex non-linear. diagram out the various plot lines and you has multiple paths, but not that many. is very easy to follow the tree o' bifurcation with the old choose path books... is not that many real choices. and reality is a beast that needs be fed even if you pretend it ain't real... and keeps in mind that it is still much cheaper to print pages that will never be read than it is to create characters and locations in a crpg that will never be encountered. ignore reality. ignore an angry dog as it attacks is an effective defense? the dog is gonna bite you no matter how much you pretend it ain't real.

character development and modern storytelling is almost synonymous. find modern authors that largely ignore character and focus on plot alone? is some... folks who write some historical fiction manage. tolkien & guy kay is a couple folks who did so too, but the prose in such works is invariably... tedious. and keeps in mind that those guys has integral plot points even if the characters is little more than a name.

...


if making story engrossing is a goal, then making all characters killable is gonna result in the crpg writer's job being very difficult. the characters, in most modern tales, IS the story. ability to kill any character at the player's whim makes such character's far less valuable as a story telling device.

is impossible to tell a non-linear story. a room full o' monkeys can do it. possibly a computer program o' as yet unattained sophistication and elegance may be able to do it. a human being trying to write a story that not have any integral characters or plot points and in which only the setting is a known quantity is likely gonna lead to what kinda story? have seen attempts, and they is pretty gosh darn awful.

*shrug*

the protagonist, btw, is a terrible focus for storytelling efforts in a crpg. the less concrete you makes, the more difficult it is to makes such a character intriguing. tno from ps:t were liked by some folks... but he were defined much more than most role-play purists would approve. specific look and gender and past... the ability to define the role o' your character makes writer's job more difficult.

it is simple practicality that results in some npcs being unkillable. the ultimate bad guy? is good to makes him/her unkillable, but the writer can makes him inaccessible. non-party npcs? joinable party members? protagonist interaction with party members offers the most obvious means o' developing compelling storylines, but as soon as you make such characters integral you is necessarily limiting role-play... can't really be integral and killable at whim. killable for a specific purpose and effect? sure, that is reasonable, but killable through accident or whim is making writer's job far more difficult.

a nwn2 expansion is only an expansion. is a sad fact that an expansion gets fewer resources than did the original game which spawned it. developers gotta do with... less. less man-hours to spend not necessarily mean that an expansion need be inferior, but it is yet another hurdle to good story telling. chances are you is gonna have fewer joinable npcs and less gameplay hours... less opportunity to build and develop story and characters. margin for error is reduced. likelihood that a nwn2 expansion joinable will be unkillable increases simply 'cause you is dealing with an expansion and there will be fewer non-essential elements anywheres in game.

you gonna have a romantic interest in the expansion? one reason why bio romances almost always seem so horrible to Gromnir is 'cause they is tangential and optional. lord knows we loathe crpg romance, but if you is gonna do, then does right... make integral to critical path plot. so, you got 2 potential integral joinable npcs right off bat, no? one male and one female... 'cause is unlikely that atari/wotc sudden go in-favor o' same gender romance. 'course you can simply makes 'em tangential... in which case you will again go through a half-dozen or more optional dialogue encounters to complete an entire romance arc. will seem rushed and improbable and juvenile outta necessity.

am not in favor o' auto-resurrect for all joinable npcs, but particularly with an expansion, and given the increasing focus 'pon storytelling in crpgs, it is understandable that obsidian would make at least some characters unkillable. joinable npcs is writer's best means o' developing story. makes such characters non-essential is making writer's job more difficult. deathlessness is a simple and obvious solution to an immediate and real problem. is maybe not the optimum solution for the hypothetical perfect crpg, but Reality is a hungry beast that needs be fed.

HA! Good Fun!
 

Lesifoere

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Gromnir said:
am not a fan o' auto-resurrect. however...

am understanding that some folks 'round here have a very narrow and refined notion o' what is role-play. a character that cannot die (any such character) is antithetical to what is teh Role-play, no? fine.

The Nameless One. :|

Otherwise, I agree with pretty much everything you say. Also, I like Gromnir.
 

Warden

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Then go marry him and disappear.

gromnir, you can write as much as you want but .. what is actually your point? That we shouldn't like non-linearity because it diminishes story-telling and what not? Yes, it takes away from the linear ultra cohesive story-telling (and personally, I don't give a fuck about that; if I did, I'd read a book), sure - but there are plenty of mini-stories to explore in a non-linear world, and I prefer the latter approach, by much.
Sorry, haven't read the other paragraphs.
 

Gromnir

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"sure - but there are plenty of mini-stories to explore in a non-linear world"

all of which needs be necessarily linear if they is to be at all compelling. same problems save on smaller and more insular scale.

am all in favor of having more tangential and optional side-quests, but those needs decrease simply 'cause we is talking 'bout an expansion... is necessarily more streamlined 'cause development resources is limited.

maybe you not care about critical path story? fine. is an option to explore in crpg development (though it seems as if market is going in opposite direction,) but is virtually axiomatic that the greater the emphasis you put on story, the more you needs define the actions of characters... which diminishes the likelihood of reaching the mythological perfect role-play experience that seems to be goal for many 'round this place.

left with monkeys typing Shakespeare option to reach good story and max role-play?

HA! Good Fun!
 

dragonfk

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Warden said:
gromnir, you can write as much as you want but .. what is actually your point? That we shouldn't like non-linearity because it diminishes story-telling and what not? Yes, it takes away from the linear ultra cohesive story-telling (and personally, I don't give a fuck about that; if I did, I'd read a book), sure - but there are plenty of mini-stories to explore in a non-linear world, and I prefer the latter approach, by much.
Sorry, haven't read the other paragraphs.

So we've got an Oblivion lover on Codex, how refreshing.

Warden why dont you read his whole post and then write: "what is actually your point".

As for your argumentation Gromnir you're right or at least partialy right. But still I think it wouldnt be so hard for a developer to make recruitable NPCs killable. Main villains I can understand, Lord British for an example also, but Jaheira or Neeshka? Why cant they die? They are/were not crucial for the story. And seriously I miss those old days when my characters were killed not just "unconcious", those were the days when I DID cared what the hell was going on the battlefield. Today I can easily go and make myself a tea or a coffie and return to my partialy unconcious and partialy victorious party. Where is the challenge in it?
 

Warden

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Yes, Gromnir, I prefer many little (linear) stories than 1 big linear.

To the person above me: I haven't played any TES games. Everything would be fine except the rulest, I think.
 

dragonfk

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Warden said:
Yes, Gromnir, I prefer many little (linear) stories than 1 big linear.

To the person above me: I haven't played any TES games. Everything would be fine except the rulest, I think.

Trust me, you're so gonna love this game. Its your non-linear dream come true, with many linear stories.
 

Gromnir

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"but Jaheira or Neeshka? Why cant they die? They are/were not crucial for the story. "

exactly... but those weren't expansion jnpcs neither. is better to compare to motb,no? which deathless jnpcs were easily exorcised from story? fewer possible jnpcs, makes it more likely that they will be deathless.

in any event, we said, "it is simple practicality that results in some npcs being unkillable."

"some." Gromnir understands why "some" is deathless... and in an expansion likes motb where there were only a handful o' jnpcs, having as many (if not more) deathless than killable jnpcs would be... silly.

HA! Good Fun!
 

Azarkon

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What's silly is that while MoTB's story was more dependent on the "JNPCs" as you call them, you didn't actually have to take any of them beyond the initial dungeon, and half of them could be killed when you first meet them (Okku & Kaelyn comes to mind). Meanwhile, most of the NPCs in the NWN 2 OC were independent of the story, but you were forced to take nearly every one of them for at least parts of the story.
 

Lumpy

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But they should be able to get killed by monsters too. Like in BG. Remember how in BG you could replace dead party members with new ones? You can't do that in MotB.
Well, maybe that's because there are only 4 PMs. They should have made more, like in BG. Is it so hard to generate a random portrait/name/class combo and add two lines of dialogue?
 

dragonfk

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Lyric Suite said:
Killing NPCs, the bastion of true roleplaying. Lulz.

We are not talking about killing as a means of roleplaying, but as a tactical disadvatage for player during gameplay. Or at least I am speaking about it. And with freedom of choice wheter kill an NPC(or leaving him dead if he has fallen during battle with enemy) comes the question how will it influence later gameplay. If like Gromnir stated NPC are nowadays essential for plot to resolve then the issue of killable NPC is crucial.
 

Lumpy

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dragonfk said:
We are not talking about killing as a means of roleplaying, but as a tactical disadvatage for player during gameplay.
In NWN2, fights were balanced with immortality in mind. Companions dying isn't a tactical disadvantage as much as it is a way to remove part of the player's entertainment. He faces a choice - give up a character with an interesting personality, or load a savegame. How interesting.
 

mjorkerina

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I believe it adds a lot to both tension and gameplay. For tension, see Fallout. Who here didn't do everything in their power to prevent Dogmeat from dying ?
For gameplay, in BG2 I used to have two or three regular, permanent NPCs and when I felt like it, I recruited polar opposites wrt my team, like if I was good, I recruit a bad guy and use him as canon fodder. If he dies from permadeath (too many damages from a dragon attack for example) I wouldn't care and it is funny to recruit greedy people like Korgan then make them die on the frontlines.
 
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mjorkerina said:
Who here didn't do everything in their power to prevent Dogmeat from dying ?

Damn, this brings back memories. May I rant please? Thank you.

So there I was, wandering around the wasteland with my dog and Ian, hoping to hit the main plot. We took a side-quest (or what we thought was one) from the punk kids which involved blowing up somekinda church. Unknown to us we had completed half of the game and we never even saw Master or Morpheus :P. Anyway, we were happy - we got money and I just reached level 7. And then we made a mistake. In our carefree wanderings we stumbled upon Necropolis. We were attacked by some ghouls and then I was stupid enough to insult some big mutant. Everything changed with that moment. Ian died. Me and my dog were taken into custody. At that moment I didn't realize the threat of the situation. I tried to keep it cool. Ian was boring anyway. I wondered if I could escape. I could and I found this pretty cool. At first I was careless, bursting into a room and killing everything in sight. That was until I realized that Dogmeat couldn't take it anymore. I ran ahead melting mutants in hopes of keeping the dog alive. "Come on boy, we're almost there. We're almost out of here. NO! Don't go there. Fuck you mutants, DIE! No one touches my dog! Are you okay boy?" We almost made it - with me trying to do everything I could. Stupid mutt. He never obeyed commands. As I said we almost made it. But then... he just died. There just was too many mutants. All those miniguns and lasers... and... shit. Dogs=Mature Storytelling! I killed those mutants. Every last one of them. You know someone's evil when he rips your dog into half. Unknown to me I just had saved the world . But the dog was dead. Then I went home, only to be exiled, abanonded, all alone in the Wasteland with no canine companion by my side.

This is how I finished Fallout in my first playthrough with only some couple of hours of playing. I just stumbled upon those things - never met the Brotherhood or Master or even the Thieves Guild. Some years later I tried to play the game again, but all that missed content paled in comparison of the wonderful combination of confusion, fear and rage I experienced in my first playthrough. Now that was magic. Also I found the writing to be pretty dull the second time.

Edit: Tried to fix some clumsy wording.
 

mjorkerina

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This is something i'd like to see more often in cRPGs, making your companions more vulnerable and without resurrect spell or shit like that. You get to care a lot more for what's happening around you when you know one of your companion won't be coming back after the last hit.

Strangely enough, I cared more for dogmeat than I ever cared for any other fallout NPC.
 

Volourn

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"Who here didn't do everything in their power to prevent Dogmeat from dying ?"

me. i cheered when the bastard pooch bit the big one. What a wasted piece of crap that is a spit on all dogs everywhere. Disgusting!
 

Jasede

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Insert Title Here RPG Wokedex Codex Year of the Donut I'm very into cock and ball torture
Walkin' Dude isn't stupid.
 

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