Review Seriously, what the fuck Obsidian?

[Naked Ninja]

Would be great to have an indicator showing that. I've got a -2 to sound dampening. Is that bad? Good? Mediocre?

 

[Brother None]

Would be great to have an indicator showing that. I've got a -2 to sound dampening. Is that bad? Good? Mediocre?

Mediocre.

The game doesn't bother giving you too much information, though I do like how you can actually hear yourself more clearly if your armor is louder. If you don't use silent running when wearing non-stealth armor, guards will detect you if you try to sneak up on them. Sound's a big issue in stealth. Perks, armor and mods all help here, as well as skills.

The game is very RPG-focused here. You can't sneak around with low skills because your character sucks at sneaking, not because you suck at sneaking. Fine attitude to me.

 

[denizsi]

Like I said in my blog post, with that many points in Stealth the guards would literally spot me as I crested the top of a ladder, from across the compound or as I walk around a corner, or walking on a ledge from the ground below. By which I mean start shooting. Maybe they go into the 'huh' stage and then immediately detect me again, I don't know.

I very much doubt if you've been paying attention to enemies' patrol routes to time your movement but after all, it could be the game screwing up on you completely due to broken AI. During my first entire game to the end, I haven't witnessed once NPCs doing some basic team work or even reacting to dead bodies. The whole game was like a bad joke (though it still is to a large degree). When I saw them do those things in my second game, I was shocked.

Which reminds me of another terrible, consolitis inflicted shortcoming of the game: you can't ever carry & hide bodies and usually you don't even need to as bodies disappear into thin air when you look away and enemies usually don't even react to their comrades falling down right next to them, much less to dead bodies, but then again, sometimes they just do which makes the whole thing even worse. So much inconsistency...

 

[Naked Ninja]

The game is very RPG-focused here. You can't sneak around with low skills because your character sucks at sneaking, not because you suck at sneaking. Fine attitude to me.

But it should scale, IMO.

Take combat skills. In most RPGs, your combat skills scale up as your opponents do, which means you're technically standing still, relative to them. You do low damage, you fight opponents who do low damage and have low health. You level and do more damage, but now your average foe has more health and damage output themselves. You're essentially standing still, it just gates the content. You fight rats so you can fight orcs so you can fight vampires so you can fight demons.

Stealth, IMO, should work the same. The low level rogue shouldn't have to wait till level 10 to stealth past the kind of opponents they face at level 2, on average. If stealth is a viable gameplay path, it should be from the start.

I took the stealth char background. To have such a low margin of error vs the first enemies I encounter is just lame. If I start out with good stealth skills (for a beginning character) I should be good at stealth vs the starting dudes.

Scaling the challenges as the player skills up is common principle of RPGs.

 

[Roguey]

Would be great to have an indicator showing that. I've got a -2 to sound dampening. Is that bad? Good? Mediocre?

If you took a stealth character, why are you wearing regular armor? You should be wearing the Night Operations thing or no armor at all if you're trying to ghost (me, I did this and I'm terrible).

 

[treave]

Would be great to have an indicator showing that. I've got a -2 to sound dampening. Is that bad? Good? Mediocre?

Uh, I'd call that very bad for stealthworks.

With sound dampening of 0, enemies can still hear me trying to sneak up behind them once I'm very close. Can't figure out how bad it'd be with -2.

Regular clothing has 5 for sound dampening if I recall correctly.

 

[denizsi]

Correct. Late into the game, there's a night ops armor that also provides sound dampening of 5 plus a few other things.

Stealth, IMO, should work the same. The low level rogue shouldn't have to wait till level 10 to stealth past the kind of opponents they face at level 2, on average. If stealth is a viable gameplay path, it should be from the start.

I took the stealth char background. To have such a low margin of error vs the first enemies I encounter is just lame. If I start out with good stealth skills (for a beginning character) I should be good at stealth vs the starting dudes.

Stealth is shoddy but it works perfectly from the get go and the scaling is there. Either you are doing something wrong or you are constantly hitting an AI bug jackpot. And what treave said.

I could sneak right behind people wearing even an average armor with sound dampening of 2 or 3.

While at it, more RPGishness from NOLF2:

Hiding in dark spots, speed based on the Stealth skill (not the only thing the skill enables):

http://www.mobygames.com/game/windows/n ... tId,31895/

Decrypting a message without mini game nonsense. Speed and whether you can decrypt it based on the Gadgets skill:

http://www.mobygames.com/game/windows/n ... tId,31901/

Searching a body, which is a completely alien concept to AP's design, and a file cabinet. Speed and finding more/less stuff based on the Searching skill:

http://www.mobygames.com/game/windows/n ... tId,31902/
http://www.mobygames.com/game/windows/n ... tId,31910/

Picking a lock, speed and whether you can lock a pick based on the Gadgets skill.

http://www.mobygames.com/game/windows/n ... tId,31912/

 

[Naked Ninja]

I bought some armor after the first mission. I dunno, being dropped into a terrorist stronghold in the desert, seemed like a good idea to upgrade from the basic armor I started with. I basically did the usual RPG thing and upgraded my gear from the starter stuff with what cash I had.

I had no idea the range is 5 for sound dampening, having a -2 for a modifier on a gun seems trivial.

Nolf was pretty awesome, I remember.

 

[denizsi]

Yes, as with the overall design, there's little consistency to make sense of things in AP, as with modifiers' impact between weapons and other equipment.

One utterly silly thing is, if you intend to sneak your way through a level, you should NEVER run around unless you are 100% sure you have completely cleared an area and there aren't any enemy presence until you hit the next closed off area. As long as there is a single enemy, he can sometimes pick up on you completely out of LOS from across the level if you start running around.

 

[Felix]

So far, I’m 0 for 3 in my attempts to stealth through the missions with a stealthy character. I was good at Thief, btw, so it’s not just incompetence.

Or is it?

I don't know what's his definition of 'stealthing through', maybe ghosting, yeah, that's pretty impossible then. But I remember having only two firefights in these 3 Saudi missions: one at the end of Darcy's mission where you have to take out the fags shooping the chopper, the second at the end of the mission to get Nasri, with the 'elite guards'.

I stealthed through the entire game once save for the bosses, but I'm also beat them by utilize stealth so my conclusion is he is just sucks, plain and simple.

On my aggressive commando run now.

Would be great to have an indicator showing that. I've got a -2 to sound dampening. Is that bad? Good? Mediocre?

Mediocre.

The game doesn't bother giving you too much information, though I do like how you can actually hear yourself more clearly if your armor is louder. If you don't use silent running when wearing non-stealth armor, guards will detect you if you try to sneak up on them. Sound's a big issue in stealth. Perks, armor and mods all help here, as well as skills.

The game is very RPG-focused here. You can't sneak around with low skills because your character sucks at sneaking, not because you suck at sneaking. Fine attitude to me.

-2 is very bad and for loud character type that can mow down everything that move only.(my current Mike)

 

[themadhatter114]

If you are trying to be a stealthy character and wearing armor with a -2 sound dampening stat, you ARE incompetent and have little room to complain about how the game is making the stealth too hard for you. Normal clothing has a sound dampening stat of 5, and you can also get stealth armor. No, an elite operative doesn't need super fancy protective armor if he intends to remain unseen throughout the entire level. Maybe you were good at Thief, but I assume you didn't run around the level in full plate mail and assume that no one would hear you.

When I did a non-lethal run as a recruit, I put ALL of my points into stealth and leveled nothing else until it was full. I eventually put a single point in sabotage and sank a lot of money on EMPs and couldn't afford to buy anything else until after I'd completed Taipei and almost all of Moscow, so I had nothing but my regular clothes on and whatever tranq ammo that I could scrounge up, and the stealth worked just fine. And, as someone else said, there's no indicator of how "hidden" you are because the game doesn't use light meters, so enemies either know where you are or they don't. If you want an indicator to tell how hidden you are, that's what that "superpower" awareness is for.

 

[Brother None]

-2 is very bad and for loud character type that can mow down everything that move only.(my current Mike)

Yes. For some reason I read it as 2, not -2. -2 is really bad. I've never tried sneaking with negative sound dampening, I don't imagine it can work.

 

[VentilatorOfDoom]

Would be great to have an indicator showing that. I've got a -2 to sound dampening. Is that bad? Good? Mediocre?

for not being spotted at range you need this digital stealth mod for your armor, helps a lot

And no - sound dampening doesn't mean jack shit. The mods are decisive, to not be heard you need to use this silently walking ability anyway and wearing the heaviest armor with 4 equipment slots benefits you most, regardless of *sound dampening*. It never dampens the sound enough anyway.

 

[circ]

There was a perk in AP, I forget what you had to do. Maybe be friendly with someone or sneak kill a majority of mobs, but it gave you -20% quieter walking/sneaking. Oh nevermind, there was that one, but I forget how you got it. But there was another perk you got from being friendly with someone, not a handler perk that is, that gave you decreased sight range. Madison also gave you that as handler bonus. Or maybe I'm thinking of that one.

 

[Brother None]

The mods are decisive, to not be heard you need to use this silently walking ability anyway.

What? No. I never used silent walking on my sneak build. Not once. I was very rarely heard. Because I had a sound dampened build. You're talking bullshit.

There was a perk in AP, I forget what you had to do. Maybe be friendly with someone or sneak kill a majority of mobs, but it gave you -20% quieter walking/sneaking. Oh nevermind, there was that one, but I forget how you got it. But there was another perk you got from being friendly with someone, not a handler perk that is, that gave you decreased sight range. Madison also gave you that as handler bonus. Or maybe I'm thinking of that one.

Sneaking past/silently dispatching 75 enemies gives you Lurker, -20% movement noise.

Completing missions without being spotted eventually gives you sight range bonuses. And indeed, so does Madison St James' handler bonus.

 

[VentilatorOfDoom]

What? No. I never used silent walking on my sneak build. Not once. I was very rarely heard. Because I had a sound dampened build. You're talking bullshit.

So sound dampening prevents being spotted by a guard in an opposite building 50m away? Despite sneaking? Someone who can't hear you anyway regardless how sound dampened you are? Nonsense. The digital stealth mod prevents that as I said.
I was refering to:

Like I said in my blog post, with that many points in Stealth the guards would literally spot me as I crested the top of a ladder, from across the compound or as I walk around a corner, or walking on a ledge from the ground below. By which I mean start shooting. Maybe they go into the 'huh' stage and then immediately detect me again, I don't know.

And wearing the heaviest armor with the most equipment slots and coincidentally having way more endurance than with stealth armor plus negating the noise disadvantage with silent walking when needed proofed to be more effective in my games than the *sound dampened build* I tried first. Especially when the inevitable shout out ensued.

 

[treave]

What? No. I never used silent walking on my sneak build. Not once. I was very rarely heard. Because I had a sound dampened build. You're talking bullshit.

So sound dampening prevents being spotted by a guard in an opposite building 50m away? Despite sneaking? Someone who can't hear you anyway regardless how sound dampened you are? Nonsense. The digital stealth mod prevents that as I said.

Hearing and seeing are two different things. Also, if you don't use silent running/shadow operative and clank about with undampened armor you'll be heard before they even see you, and they'll come running to check.

I had about 180 endurance with advanced stealth armor by the end of the game, which was when the shootiest parts occurred. Carbide Matrix + Digital Camo. That is sufficient as long as you take cover instead of charging into all your battles.

 

[VentilatorOfDoom]

Hearing and seeing are two different things.

Thanks for this valuable info. I know. When I said *mods are decisive* I was refering to being spotted. Not heard. For the problem of being heard I said silent walking works fine and doesn't require sound dampening.

Also, if you don't use silent running/shadow operative and clank about with undampened armor you'll be heard before they even see you, and they'll come running to check.

No. Most of the enemies will hear you when you're like 2m away from them and then it's too late-> sneak takedown. Especially considering the perks you will pick up when you're playing sneaky. For the others silent walking works just fine. There were no enemies who would hear me if I was farther away than a few meters even in the heaviest armor. Depending on their awareness some wouldn't hear you at all. Also why wouldn't you use your sneak abilities when you're playing a sneak build?

 

[treave]

Hearing and seeing are two different things.

Thanks for this valuable info. I know. When I said *mods are decisive* I was refering to being spotted. Not heard. For the problem of being heard I said silent walking works fine and doesn't require sound dampening.

Also, if you don't use silent running/shadow operative and clank about with undampened armor you'll be heard before they even see you, and they'll come running to check.

No. Most of the enemies will hear you when you're like 2m away from them and then it's too late-> sneak takedown. Especially considering the perks you will pick up when you're playing sneaky. For the others silent walking works just fine. There were no enemies who would hear me if I was farther away than a few meters even in the heaviest armor. Depending on their awareness some wouldn't hear you at all. Also why wouldn't you use your sneak abilities when you're playing a sneak build?

Because the game's already too easy. Constant awareness + sound-dampening is enough to sneak with.

I've had enemies come after me the moment I stepped in, even if I wasn't in LOS, wearing a 0 sound-dampened armor, and they were pretty far away. Not sure how to reconcile this with what you're encountering, though, unless you only move while using silent running.

 

[VentilatorOfDoom]

Ok then probably having many dots in stealth helps too

Which would make sense. Although I did use silent walking a lot, but it has a fairly long duration at higher stealth levels.

 

[treave]

Could be an effect of the perks too?

Never really used silent running, or any other abilities for that matter because my sound-dampened build + silenced pistol was great at killing mooks, and pretty good at taking down bosses with chain-shot spam.

At any rate, the abilities menu is cumbersome. That's why I only ever have chain-shot as my active ability. What happened to hotkeys?

 

[Twinkle]

What happened to hotkeys?

Consoles.

 

[Naked Ninja]

One utterly silly thing is, if you intend to sneak your way through a level, you should NEVER run around unless you are 100% sure you have completely cleared an area and there aren't any enemy presence until you hit the next closed off area. As long as there is a single enemy, he can sometimes pick up on you completely out of LOS from across the level if you start running around.

:Facepalm:

I run fairly often. You know, shoot a dude in a canyon/corridor, no one nearby, jog down the canyon/corridor...I don't run when someone is nearby though, but still.

If you are trying to be a stealthy character and wearing armor with a -2 sound dampening stat, you ARE incompetent and have little room to complain about how the game is making the stealth too hard for you. Normal clothing has a sound dampening stat of 5, and you can also get stealth armor. No, an elite operative doesn't need super fancy protective armor if he intends to remain unseen throughout the entire level.

To clarify, the base stat on the armor isn't -2 sound dampening, it's -2 relative to the basic clothing. Sorry for not being clear.

I may not wear super fancy armor, but I didn't expect even a commando stealth ninja to go into a terrorist base in the desert in his shirt and slacks, mm'kay.

If I'd known that '-2' actually meant '-40%', I would probably not have bought the armor. But fuck me if AP ever told me, in the tuts or tutorials, what a 'good' rating is. If it had been represented as a percentage...come to think of it, I have no idea how much +1 recoil is. Anyone want to clarify the other numbers for gear (besides damage)?

Maybe you were good at Thief, but I assume you didn't run around the level in full plate mail and assume that no one would hear you.

Of course. But my char looks like he has some camo gear on with a kevlar vest, not half a ton of jangly metal. Visually, it doesn't seem like my character should be all that bad at stealth. Which is where some bloody UI feedback would be helpful, or a more consistent indication of item strengths in the stats.

When I did a non-lethal run as a recruit, I put ALL of my points into stealth and leveled nothing else until it was full. I eventually put a single point in sabotage and sank a lot of money on EMPs and couldn't afford to buy anything else until after I'd completed Taipei and almost all of Moscow, so I had nothing but my regular clothes on and whatever tranq ammo that I could scrounge up, and the stealth worked just fine

How exciting for you. You'll have to excuse me for playing a build that took points in more than 1 skill, clearly that's that's just my RPG incompetence kicking in.

 

[Achilles]

If you have a couple of skill points on stealth, it's quite possible to finish the Saudi missions undetected (apart from the "boss fights"). The stealth system may be basic but it's not fair to judge a hybrid game like AP based on stealth-only games like Splinter Cell and Thief.

 

[themadhatter114]

If you are trying to be a stealthy character and wearing armor with a -2 sound dampening stat, you ARE incompetent and have little room to complain about how the game is making the stealth too hard for you. Normal clothing has a sound dampening stat of 5, and you can also get stealth armor. No, an elite operative doesn't need super fancy protective armor if he intends to remain unseen throughout the entire level.

To clarify, the base stat on the armor isn't -2 sound dampening, it's -2 relative to the basic clothing. Sorry for not being clear.

I may not wear super fancy armor, but I didn't expect even a commando stealth ninja to go into a terrorist base in the desert in his shirt and slacks, mm'kay.

If I'd known that '-2' actually meant '-40%', I would probably not have bought the armor. But fuck me if AP ever told me, in the tuts or tutorials, what a 'good' rating is. If it had been represented as a percentage...come to think of it, I have no idea how much +1 recoil is. Anyone want to clarify the other numbers for gear (besides damage)?[/quote]

So, it wasn't actually -2, it was like, 3, or something? You mean you don't understand that 3 is 60% of 5? Still, though, if your sound dampening stat was 3, sneakingl should not have been incredibly hard.

Maybe you were good at Thief, but I assume you didn't run around the level in full plate mail and assume that no one would hear you.

Of course. But my char looks like he has some camo gear on with a kevlar vest, not half a ton of jangly metal. Visually, it doesn't seem like my character should be all that bad at stealth. Which is where some bloody UI feedback would be helpful, or a more consistent indication of item strengths in the stats.

When I did a non-lethal run as a recruit, I put ALL of my points into stealth and leveled nothing else until it was full. I eventually put a single point in sabotage and sank a lot of money on EMPs and couldn't afford to buy anything else until after I'd completed Taipei and almost all of Moscow, so I had nothing but my regular clothes on and whatever tranq ammo that I could scrounge up, and the stealth worked just fine

How exciting for you. You'll have to excuse me for playing a build that took points in more than 1 skill, clearly that's that's just my RPG incompetence kicking in.

When you start out with enough action points to have a few points in 3 different skills, that's fine. When you're playing on recruit and start out with 0 points, it's easier to pick a single specialty that can carry you through the early parts of the game. If you weren't playing as a recruit, it was probably easy enough to keep the stealth skill pretty much maxed, anyway, even while investing in a few other skills.