Review Seriously, what the fuck Obsidian?

[Naked Ninja]

So, it wasn't actually -2, it was like, 3, or something? You mean you don't understand that 3 is 60% of 5?

No, I had no way of knowing what the max cap for sound dampening is. Is 5 the maximum? Is 20?

The problem is I have no idea what the numbers are, and what a specific modifier means. If the max sound dampening is 20, 3 is shit. If the max sound dampening is 5, it's ok.

All I could tell from that screen is that it was '-2' from the casual clothes. Since I have no idea what the scale is, and what stealth skill grants as a bonus, I can't tell whether a 5 sound dampening is crap, just a baseline or an awesome bonus.

Think of it in terms of DnD. You can only tell that rolling a 10 is around 'average' if you know you're using a 20 sided dice. If it was a 100 sided dice, rolling 10 would be crap.

Without knowing what AP is rolling in the background, and what bonus I get from stealth skill, seeing that my gear gives me '+3' to sound dampening doesn't mean a fraking thing.

 

[themadhatter114]

So, it wasn't actually -2, it was like, 3, or something? You mean you don't understand that 3 is 60% of 5?

No, I had no way of knowing what the max cap for sound dampening is. Is 5 the maximum? Is 20?

My goodness, you didn't pay any attention to the game. Every time you want to change equipment, it gives the stats of the new equipment, then it shows right next to that how it compares to what you are currently using. If you are wearing plain clothes, your sound dampening stat is 5. If you want to buy new armor with a sound dampening stat of 3, it will say that it has a sound dampening stat of 3, and right next to that it will show that it has a -2 compared to the plain clothes you are wearing. Not hard to figure out.

The problem is I have no idea what the numbers are, and what a specific modifier means. If the max sound dampening is 20, 3 is shit. If the max sound dampening is 5, it's ok.

All I could tell from that screen is that it was '-2' from the casual clothes. Since I have no idea what the scale is, and what stealth skill grants as a bonus, I can't tell whether a 5 sound dampening is crap, just a baseline or an awesome bonus.

Think of it in terms of DnD. You can only tell that rolling a 10 is around 'average' if you know you're using a 20 sided dice. If it was a 100 sided dice, rolling 10 would be crap.

Well, gee, it's fairly intuitive. If I look at stealth armor, the sound dampening stat is anywhere from 4 to 6, based on the quality, so 4 must be decent, 5 must be good, and 6 must be really good. Utility armor is lower, and combat armor is much lower. It's really not that hard to figure out.

Without knowing what AP is rolling in the background, and what bonus I get from stealth skill, seeing that my gear gives me '+3' to sound dampening doesn't mean a fraking thing.

Of course it doesn't mean a thing in and of itself. It only means a thing relative to what you are CURRENTLY WEARING. Again, if you look at the best stealth armor you can get early game, it has a sound dampening stat of 5, the same as your normal clothes. Later on you can get some really expensive stealth armor with a sound dampening stat of 6.

Sure, I don't know precisely what those numbers mean, and yes, that's probably bad. But I'm at least swift enough to figure out that the sound dampening of 5 on the stealth armor is very good, and that it has the same sound dampening stat of my regular clothes, so that must be good, and the sound dampening of combat armor is closer to 0, so 0 must be bad, and for utility armor it's around 2 or 3, so that must be not good but not terrible.

And with that information it's pretty easy to figure out that you aren't looking at a scale that goes up to 20, since 5 is the absolute best you can get until late game when you've saved a lot of money.

 

[Brother None]

If I'd known that '-2' actually meant '-40%', I would probably not have bought the armor. But fuck me if AP ever told me, in the tuts or tutorials, what a 'good' rating is.

I'm sorry but this is nonsense, Naked Ninja. You're right, the game doesn't give you the exact scale from good to bad. It does clearly provide you with a list of items that have certain functions. Stealth armor is clearly marked stealth armor. You don't need special knowhow on the functionality to understand that sneaking around in combat armor is friggin' retarded. You don't need a guide to tell you that losing sound dampening while trying to build a stealth character is not a good thing.

Sorry buddy, but that one's on you, not the game.

 

[Fat Dragon]

NN is right in that the way the info is presented can be confusing.

Above Sound Dampening you have stats like Endurance and Damage Resistence, Accuracy, Stability, etc that are in the double digits and a low number for those is considered really bad.

And then you have a SD stat with them that is only around 4 or 5 even with steath armor equipped. It doesn't give the player enough feedback to determine if that's a good number for SD, if the stealth armor is just a cheap shitty noob set, he screwed something up with the skill, or what. Only way to find out is through irritating trial and error.

 

[Naked Ninja]

My goodness, you didn't pay any attention to the game. Every time you want to change equipment, it gives the stats of the new equipment, then it shows right next to that how it compares to what you are currently using. If you are wearing plain clothes, your sound dampening stat is 5. If you want to buy new armor with a sound dampening stat of 3, it will say that it has a sound dampening stat of 3, and right next to that it will show that it has a -2 compared to the plain clothes you are wearing

I do know that.

I'm talking about what the game is actually checking, under the hood.

For example, again to go back to DnD, your armors all have a skill check penalty. That penalty goes up to -8 for platemail.

So the range on skill checks is 1-8, right? No.

It's 1d20 + skill - Armor check. Generally, it's in the range of 1-20. So plate mail gives you around a 40% penalty.

So when I say 'what is the maximum sound dampening?', I'm not asking 'what is the maximum of the clothes available to me?'. I'm asking 'what is the roll under the hood, and how much does clothing contribute, and what are the ranges of clothing modifiers?'

If the game is comparing ONLY your clothing values, then it's 1-5. But it could be rolling 1-20 and modifying that by my clothing, giving me a +10 for being in sneak mode, etc. Clothing modifiers could be around 25% of the overall calculation or they could be 100%. What does 1 point of sound dampening modify the check by?

And don't give me that 'you looked at the store, how could you not realise the cap is 5!' thing. This is the stuff available from the first 'store' in an RPG. I expected it to just be a few basic items, with cooler shit in later hubs. Thermoptic Gear 1->Thermoptic Gear 2 ->Thermoptic Gear Ultra Mega Awesome Edition.

Are you telling me that the clothes you start off with are about the best stealth gear for most of the game? The casual clothes just seemed like some basic non-combat gear you'd wear in safe houses and on dialogue sections, because it would be silly if mike was always dressed in combat mission gear.

Well, gee, it's fairly intuitive. If I look at stealth armor, the sound dampening stat is anywhere from 4 to 6, based on the quality, so 4 must be decent, 5 must be good, and 6 must be really good. Utility armor is lower, and combat armor is much lower. It's really not that hard to figure out.

I've just checked my save game, the 'Night Operations' armor has a sound dampening of 4, my armor has a SD of 3. We're talking 1 point difference, which seemed like a small enough trade for some extra protection in a hot zone. You're saying my combat armor is 'much' lower eh?

It only means a thing relative to what you are CURRENTLY WEARING.

YES. LET'S TALK IN CAPS. YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT SLACKS AND A T-SHIRT, WHO IN THEIR RIGHT FUCKING MIND ASSUMES THAT IS THE BEST GEAR FOR INFILTRATING A TERRORIST BASE, EVEN A NINJA SPY GUY?

FFS, EVEN DND ROGUES WEAR LEATHER ARMOR.

Later on you can get some really expensive stealth armor with a sound dampening stat of 6.

Well, Nancy Drew, how the hell could I tell that the casual clothes I start with are literally the second best stealth gear in the game, as opposed to just some clothing you start off with until you can actually buy armor?

And yes, stealth dudes wear armor. Sam Fisher has his getup, fantasy rogues have their leathers. Is it that hard to imagine that actual sneaky characters going into dangerous areas might wear light armor? Maybe I should have remembered Bond is an inspiration. Is the awesome stealth armor a tuxedo?

But I'm at least swift enough to figure out that the sound dampening of 5 on the stealth armor is very good, and that it has the same sound dampening stat of my regular clothes, so that must be good, and the sound dampening of combat armor is closer to 0, so 0 must be bad, and for utility armor it's around 2 or 3, so that must be not good but not terrible.

Mike's 'I'm going to the shop to get some milk' casual clothes : 5
Night Op Armor SD : 4
My Armor : 3

I realised 3 would be worse than 5, no shit. What I didn't realise is that it would completely fuck my attempts at stealth.

And with that information it's pretty easy to figure out that you aren't looking at a scale that goes up to 20, since 5 is the absolute best you can get until late game when you've saved a lot of money.

I'm in Saudi Arabia, the first hub. How the hell do I know what values armor has later in the game? I was expecting high tech spy shit to become available once I'd unlocked more areas and contacts. How many RPGs have you ever played where the selection of armor available to you after the tutorial, in the first store, represents 90% of the scope of items available in the game?

I'm sorry but this is nonsense, Naked Ninja. You're right, the game doesn't give you the exact scale from good to bad. It does clearly provide you with a list of items that have certain functions. Stealth armor is clearly marked stealth

Yes, and it has only 1 point more sound dampening than my current armor. Even if the scale is 1-5, that's a 25% difference, not 300% difference. So why the fuck is my stealth so badly screwed?

 

[SuicideBunny]

NN is right in that the way the info is presented can be confusing.

not really. the only thing confusing about the sd stat is how the percentage perk factors in. everything else should be pretty clear if you look at the armors and try the shittiest one right in the beginning.

 

[Radisshu]

Because one point is a lot. I realised this very quickly and adapted, I don't see why you're having such a problem with it. You're normally reasonable.

 

[Darth Roxor]

I realised 3 would be worse than 5, no shit. What I didn't realise is that it would completely fuck my attempts at stealth.

I stealthed through Saudi with the 3 sound dampening armour.

Guess it's just incompetence on your part.

 

[Naked Ninja]

Because one point is a lot. I realised this very quickly and adapted, I don't see why you're having such a problem with it. You're normally reasonable.

I thought I was being spotted, not heard, because of low stealth skills maybe. I snuck up on dudes from behind for a stealth kill a few times, so it seemed like it was sight, not sound, that was doing me in.

Again, I didn't think 1 point would make an immense difference, and people would spot me from across compounds and suchlike, suggesting that I'd been spotted.

Now that I think of it though, maybe it was running that did me in. I ran a few times when no one was in sight range/nearby.

 

[Fat Dragon]

Is the awesome stealth armor a tuxedo?

The best stealth armor in the game has Mike wearing metal shoulder pads, metal knee pads, and a shiny metal vest.

 

[Naked Ninja]

Awesome.

 

[VentilatorOfDoom]

I SAID THE MOD WHICH HAS *MAKES YOU HARD TO SPOT FROM A DISTANCE* IN THE DESCRIPTION WILL PREVENT YOU FROM BEING SPOTTED FROM A DISTANCE WAS THAT CLEAR ENOGUH FFS

 

[hoochimama]

The fact that the sound dampening value gives you no frame of reference shouldn't be a problem after more than a single mission.

After failing to stealth through a mission despite putting your points in stealth you should have realized that maybe the items with a stealth malus weren't helping?

I don't know why you mention splinter cell and dnd rogues, in splinter cell armor is purely cosmetic, in dnd armor isn't a regenerating shield like in AP and those games expect rogues to get hit since they take part in open party combat whereas in games like splinter cell, hitman, ap etc stealth means not being attacked, rendering damage mitigation pointless.

In AP's case if you find yourself taking bullets you're doing it wrong.

The best stealth armor in the game has Mike wearing metal shoulder pads, metal knee pads, and a shiny metal vest.

All it was missing was the bat helmet and cape.

 

[Fat Dragon]

Awesome.

I wasn't joking btw, he really does wear that. It's called the Advanced Tactical Stealth Armor, I think. It's available near the game's end for around $120k. Looks like some sort of silly sci-fi outfit.

I always went with the Tactical Swat Armor for stealth builds, and later it's second variant. Decent SD stats, and provides an extra item and armor mod slot to use unlike the stealth armors. Most of your good stats come from mod bonuses anyway, there's not much reason to buy any new weapons or armor unless it's a significant improvement. In my playthrough I only replaced my armor and pistol once.

-edit
By the way, if you're still having trouble sneaking by those guards high up on vantage points that can see over long distances, equip an assault rifle with subsonic rounds and snipe him silently. You don't need any points in AR to to be able to line up an accurate critical hit with them.

 

[VentilatorOfDoom]

I always went with the Tactical Swat Armor for stealth builds, and later it's second variant. Decent SD stats, and provides an extra item and armor mod slot to use unlike the stealth armors. Most of your good stats come from mod bonuses anyway

 

[SuicideBunny]

it's not metal, but whatever.

 

[themadhatter114]

My goodness, you didn't pay any attention to the game. Every time you want to change equipment, it gives the stats of the new equipment, then it shows right next to that how it compares to what you are currently using. If you are wearing plain clothes, your sound dampening stat is 5. If you want to buy new armor with a sound dampening stat of 3, it will say that it has a sound dampening stat of 3, and right next to that it will show that it has a -2 compared to the plain clothes you are wearing

I do know that.

No, you didn't, because you didn't understand the difference between a -2 stat and a -2 stat compared to the clothes you were previously wearing.

I'm talking about what the game is actually checking, under the hood.

For example, again to go back to DnD, your armors all have a skill check penalty. That penalty goes up to -8 for platemail.

So the range on skill checks is 1-8, right? No.

It's 1d20 + skill - Armor check. Generally, it's in the range of 1-20. So plate mail gives you around a 40% penalty.

So when I say 'what is the maximum sound dampening?', I'm not asking 'what is the maximum of the clothes available to me?'. I'm asking 'what is the roll under the hood, and how much does clothing contribute, and what are the ranges of clothing modifiers?'

If the game is comparing ONLY your clothing values, then it's 1-5. But it could be rolling 1-20 and modifying that by my clothing, giving me a +10 for being in sneak mode, etc. Clothing modifiers could be around 25% of the overall calculation or they could be 100%. What does 1 point of sound dampening modify the check by?

You don't have a dexterity score, so there's nothing that could conceivably modify your sound dampening stat other than the armor you wear and the mods you get for that armor. And obviously you make more noise when you run and when you shoot guns. Not hard to figure out.

And don't give me that 'you looked at the store, how could you not realise the cap is 5!' thing. This is the stuff available from the first 'store' in an RPG. I expected it to just be a few basic items, with cooler shit in later hubs. Thermoptic Gear 1->Thermoptic Gear 2 ->Thermoptic Gear Ultra Mega Awesome Edition.

Are you telling me that the clothes you start off with are about the best stealth gear for most of the game? The casual clothes just seemed like some basic non-combat gear you'd wear in safe houses and on dialogue sections, because it would be silly if mike was always dressed in combat mission gear.

No, it's not the best you can get in the game, but I think it's obvious that a sound dampening stat of 3 is significantly worse than a sound dampening stat of 5, which is the best you can get in the beginning of the game. If you intend to go through the entire game without being seen, there's not much you can get that's better than your basic clothing until you can afford the really, really expensive stealth armor.

I believe that the best you can get, period, is 6, much later in the game. Other than the best stealth armor, none of the better stealth armors are really better at sound dampening than the lower ones, but the better stealth armors provide more protection, allow for more mods, and allow you to carry more gadgets.

Well, gee, it's fairly intuitive. If I look at stealth armor, the sound dampening stat is anywhere from 4 to 6, based on the quality, so 4 must be decent, 5 must be good, and 6 must be really good. Utility armor is lower, and combat armor is much lower. It's really not that hard to figure out.

I've just checked my save game, the 'Night Operations' armor has a sound dampening of 4, my armor has a SD of 3. We're talking 1 point difference, which seemed like a small enough trade for some extra protection in a hot zone. You're saying my combat armor is 'much' lower eh? I said 4 is decent, 5 (on the stealth armor and your normal clothes) is good, and 3 isn't terrible. I never said 3 was terrible; I said -2 was terrible. I said that 2 or 3 was okay but not terrible. But like you said earlier it doesn't matter if there are guys in the room and you are running around.

It only means a thing relative to what you are CURRENTLY WEARING.

YES. LET'S TALK IN CAPS. YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT SLACKS AND A T-SHIRT, WHO IN THEIR RIGHT FUCKING MIND ASSUMES THAT IS THE BEST GEAR FOR INFILTRATING A TERRORIST BASE, EVEN A NINJA SPY GUY?

FFS, EVEN DND ROGUES WEAR LEATHER ARMOR.

Well, apparently I needed to emphasize that, because you didn't seem to understand what the modifiers meant. That was incredibly evident in that you didn't understand the difference between a stat of -2 and a modifier of -2 compared to your current armor.

Yes, it's kind of silly that regular clothing is decent for stealth early on. I don't recall, but maybe it's not as good for being invisible but just the best for not being heard. Maybe you just can't put mods in it, I don't remember right off hand. But the fact that it has a sound dampening of 5, which happens to be the same as the sound dampening of the most expensive stealth armor, means that it must be pretty decent for stealthing through a mission.

Later on you can get some really expensive stealth armor with a sound dampening stat of 6.

Well, Nancy Drew, how the hell could I tell that the casual clothes I start with are literally the second best stealth gear in the game, as opposed to just some clothing you start off with until you can actually buy armor?

You can't, but you can tell that it has a sound dampening stat equal to the best stealth armor that you can get at the beginning of the game. Of course, it doesn't allow you to use as many (or maybe not any) mods, offer as much protection, or allow you to carry as much gear as the better stealth armor. Mods can affect sight range of enemies and cooldown times on those nifty stealth abilities like Silent Running which you seem to have neglected. So, no, your clothes are not literally the second best stealth gear in the game, but they are good if you like to close quickly when you're behind someone and you want to take him out.

If you're trying to crouch and walk quickly behind someone while wearing heavier armor, they will turn around at the last second and shoot you.

And yes, stealth dudes wear armor. Sam Fisher has his getup, fantasy rogues have their leathers. Is it that hard to imagine that actual sneaky characters going into dangerous areas might wear light armor? Maybe I should have remembered Bond is an inspiration. Is the awesome stealth armor a tuxedo?

But I'm at least swift enough to figure out that the sound dampening of 5 on the stealth armor is very good, and that it has the same sound dampening stat of my regular clothes, so that must be good, and the sound dampening of combat armor is closer to 0, so 0 must be bad, and for utility armor it's around 2 or 3, so that must be not good but not terrible.

Mike's 'I'm going to the shop to get some milk' casual clothes : 5
Night Op Armor SD : 4
My Armor : 3

I realised 3 would be worse than 5, no shit. What I didn't realise is that it would completely fuck my attempts at stealth.

But it doesn't, because 3 isn't really a terrible stat. You just run around too much, apparently.

And with that information it's pretty easy to figure out that you aren't looking at a scale that goes up to 20, since 5 is the absolute best you can get until late game when you've saved a lot of money.

I'm in Saudi Arabia, the first hub. How the hell do I know what values armor has later in the game? I was expecting high tech spy shit to become available once I'd unlocked more areas and contacts. How many RPGs have you ever played where the selection of armor available to you after the tutorial, in the first store, represents 90% of the scope of items available in the game?

It doesn't. Sound dampening is only one statistic.

I'm sorry but this is nonsense, Naked Ninja. You're right, the game doesn't give you the exact scale from good to bad. It does clearly provide you with a list of items that have certain functions. Stealth armor is clearly marked stealth

Yes, and it has only 1 point more sound dampening than my current armor. Even if the scale is 1-5, that's a 25% difference, not 300% difference. So why the fuck is my stealth so badly screwed?

Because you run around, apparently. Or because you don't use the awareness ability to make sure guys are looking the other way before you climb up behind them. Who knows? But with a sound dampening stat of 3, there's absolutely no reason guys should hear you from across the room. They will hear you though if you try to quickly sneak behind them for a takedown, though. For that you can use silent running.

 

[Volourn]

Wut a fukkin' dum rgumeaNT

 

[The Ninth Circle]

Um, I can see both points. If you like to crunch numbers, AP will be a headache. You compare weapons and armor against whichever you currently have equipped, which makes sense. As a random operative, you'd have little knowledge of how stealthy armors can become (max sound dampening). But still it was difficult getting used to because it seems as if the numbers are random, as in you have no idea the range in which they're being rated, say 1-10 or 1-50 score on a per stat basis, which would make their pros/cons more concrete and understandable. That said, picking armor/weapons of the specialty you're going for is as easy as looking at that play style's main stat and looking for higher numbers. Simple.

I have issue with many of the upgrade items that simply say "moderate increase to..", without actually explaining how much of an increase we're talking about.

In the end the game isn't difficult enough or challenging enough to worry about number crunching or min/maxing your character. I used the first pistol (with silencer and other upgrades..) for nearly half the game.

 

[Sannom]

Like I said in my blog post, with that many points in Stealth the guards would literally spot me as I crested the top of a ladder, from across the compound or as I walk around a corner, or walking on a ledge from the ground below. By which I mean start shooting. Maybe they go into the 'huh' stage and then immediately detect me again, I don't know.

Were you standing up or crouching? Stealth reduces enemies' field of view only when crouching. When you stand up, they catch you easy.
There is no "huh?" stage when they see you, they go hostile immediately. Same when they see a body. "Huh?" stage is only when they here something suspect, or for special events.

The game is very RPG-focused here. You can't sneak around with low skills because your character sucks at sneaking, not because you suck at sneaking. Fine attitude to me.

That's weird, because I got the impression stealth is probably the only way of playing that would be doable with no skills, only equipment.

Which reminds me of another terrible, consolitis inflicted shortcoming of the game: you can't ever carry & hide bodies and usually you don't even need to as bodies disappear into thin air when you look away and enemies usually don't even react to their comrades falling down right next to them, much less to dead bodies, but then again, sometimes they just do which makes the whole thing even worse. So much inconsistency...

I think bodies disappear mostly because you can't hide them. Enemies react to them, violently. If they didn't disappear, and since we can't hide them, some of the infiltration would be really hard.

Stealth, IMO, should work the same. The low level rogue shouldn't have to wait till level 10 to stealth past the kind of opponents they face at level 2, on average. If stealth is a viable gameplay path, it should be from the start.

I took the stealth char background. To have such a low margin of error vs the first enemies I encounter is just lame. If I start out with good stealth skills (for a beginning character) I should be good at stealth vs the starting dudes.

It is viable from the start. Heck, it's the only thing viable in the tutorial. I made a stealth character (Field Agent background, but modified : no points in Martial Arts, I focused on Stealth and Pistols instead, with Sabotage after) and I was able to go through the Nasri mission without never touching any enemy except for the last zone, same with the other missions (I just chocked one guy in the airport mission). With careful planning and observation, it becomes largely doable. Awareness helps too, if only to see how many bad guys are out there exactly, and telling you when they are on the move (I usually get their patrol route from observing them).

And don't give me that 'you looked at the store, how could you not realise the cap is 5!' thing. This is the stuff available from the first 'store' in an RPG. I expected it to just be a few basic items, with cooler shit in later hubs. Thermoptic Gear 1->Thermoptic Gear 2 ->Thermoptic Gear Ultra Mega Awesome Edition.

Weapons in AP, especially for a stealth build, don't have a lot of "loot" factor to them. I still have the same gun from the first mission, just with more mods. The Chinese Secret Police officers in Taipei are the first ones to give me trouble with that weapon, probably because of that helmet of theirs. I just sneak past them, no sight, no alarm, no trouble.