Game News Shadowrun: Hong Kong Kickstarter Update #13: The Matrix Unlocked

[Shannow]

That there are no Shadowrunner etiquette checks in Dragonfall (non Directors Cut). There are, they were patched in.

Seriously guys. "Patched in"?
I think we can all agree that HBS have so far missed the sweet spot where etiquettes feel useful, give flavour, but are not too easy to get and do not equal a win button.
I certainly wouldn't mind if they played a bigger role in future games. (As long as HBS don't over-do it.)

 

[Starwars]

I definitely think the etiquettes are in need of revision but it's factually wrong to say that there are no Shadowrunner etiquette checks, when in fact, there are. Just because I feel Gambling is boring and useless skill in Fallout does not mean that it doesn't exist in the game-world.

 

[Wizfall]

I don't mind very weak Etiquettes skills because i dislike dialog auto success skill check (like in FNV, only game that did it right IMO was Fallout 1/2 despite Speech being a very overpowered skill).
Etiquettes should provide mostly "flavor" and only sometimes a little bonus/loot/story shortcut.
That's why i'm ok the way HBS did it.
However there were really not enough use of the different Etiquettes.

 

[tuluse]

I definitely think the etiquettes are in need of revision but it's factually wrong to say that there are no Shadowrunner etiquette checks, when in fact, there are. Just because I feel Gambling is boring and useless skill in Fallout does not mean that it doesn't exist in the game-world.

If he downloaded it on day 1, there wouldn't have been any checks.

 

[Starwars]

Yeees.... But there is now. As I said in my post, it was added in the patch.

 

[Damned Registrations]

I honestly wouldn't mind if they added a bunch of etiquette checks that gave you no advantage, but simply gave you something interesting to say/talk about. My favourite part of the etiquette system isn't getting free shit or bypassing obstacles, but the way it fleshed out my character as someone familiar with the corporate and security worlds, but totally unfamiliar with gangs and street level shit. I can't think of any other games that do that sort of thing.

 

[Jaesun]

I honestly wouldn't mind if they added a bunch of etiquette checks that gave you no advantage, but simply gave you something interesting to say/talk about.

So basically what BioWare does?

 

[Damned Registrations]

I honestly wouldn't mind if they added a bunch of etiquette checks that gave you no advantage, but simply gave you something interesting to say/talk about.

So basically what BioWare does?

I wouldn't know. The only BioWare shit I've really played is the first Baldur's Gate, and I didn't even finish that (Got bored after reaching the city.)

 

[zero29]

DF had a mission with two toons in the Matrix as well.

Spoiler

One of them was an AI though.

nope, in df as long as you got more than 1 decker and enough terminals to jack in you can send a team into the matrix. only seen this during the apex rising run, though. but it is definitely possible:

Security and Corporate did always feel like the most useful ones. Additional etiquettes did seem very expensive to me for frequently minimal gain.

etiquette checks i found in dfdc by savescumming through dialog trees (current run apex rising):

Gang 4
Socialite 2
Security 7
Street 6
Shadowrunner 3
Academic 3
Corporate 1

socialite is as useful as it sounds, but i have to admit that i was a bit disappointed about corp etiquette being used only once.

 

[Roguey]

I honestly wouldn't mind if they added a bunch of etiquette checks that gave you no advantage, but simply gave you something interesting to say/talk about. My favourite part of the etiquette system isn't getting free shit or bypassing obstacles, but the way it fleshed out my character as someone familiar with the corporate and security worlds, but totally unfamiliar with gangs and street level shit. I can't think of any other games that do that sort of thing.

Storm of Zehir is the thing for you if you love cosmetic dialogue checks.

 

[Damned Registrations]

I definitely got more than 1 corporate check on my playthrough. There were at least a couple on the aztech run, and there's another at the start of the game with the drug dealer guy. Corp, Security and Street seemed about tied for top place, with street close after that and then the others were basically meh.

Also just to be clear, I don't want to get rid of the useful etiquette checks, I just thought the flavour only ones (like when you're talking to Eiger and can relate about some of the shit with a security check) were really nice too.

One thing I thought was missing in that regard was a magic user sort of etiquette, there were a lot of times my mage was apparently clueless about some really basic shit that Dietrich and Glory knew about. There were some skill checks but an etiquette would have filled in some gaps, especially regarding Dietrich and Glory's side stories when they're talking about their totem spirits or whatever the fuck.

 

[Morality Games]

I don't mind very weak Etiquettes skills because i dislike dialog auto success skill check (like in FNV, only game that did it right IMO was Fallout 1/2 despite Speech being a very overpowered skill).
Etiquettes should provide mostly "flavor" and only sometimes a little bonus/loot/story shortcut.
That's why i'm ok the way HBS did it.
However there were really not enough use of the different Etiquettes.

They should be used to gather information that makes impossible challenges somehow possible. In the Shadowrun setting as realized in the P&P, medium difficulty runs still incorporate enough challenges to roast the entire party before they get a foot through the door. Having and building "connections" isn't just statistical gloss, you need the options they provide to get through that door.

 

[Morality Games]

I honestly wouldn't mind if they added a bunch of etiquette checks that gave you no advantage, but simply gave you something interesting to say/talk about. My favourite part of the etiquette system isn't getting free shit or bypassing obstacles, but the way it fleshed out my character as someone familiar with the corporate and security worlds, but totally unfamiliar with gangs and street level shit. I can't think of any other games that do that sort of thing.

Etiquettes in Shadowrun aren't supposed to be statistical gloss. The level and quest design in Shadowrun is supposed to be freakishly complex among P&P RPGs. On a basic level you have three interrelating realities (Awakened, Matrix, Material) that corps can draw upon to turn their outlets into impenetrable fortresses, and then you have the agendas and priorities of multiple overlapping factions making seemingly innocuous actions potentially dangerous. Etiquette is supposed to be an information and resources gathering technique that makes challenges that seem impossible when you first approached them somehow achievable. For example, blowing your entire yearly run budget on blasting through a steel door with gun mounted turrets and the army waiting on the other side can be side stepped by using that Knight Errant connection to hitch a ride in with the people who are supposed to be guarding the building. However, this help is conditional on your party not killing any of the personnel in the building (let's say the team's Face was able to able to broker a middle ground deal with the Errant connection because the Knight Errant's particular contract in this case empathized the long term safety of researchers who have proved their value to a corporation rather than the particular project the Runners' Mr. Johnson wants them to get). Since Knight Errant has to prove they tried to protect the building, the Running team has to avoid being seen by the personnel working the building. This alters the victory-fail conditions from killing everyone who gets in your way into a stealth game, since Knight Errant will leave you alone as long as none of their employers see you. If you are seen, you can kill the researcher and stash the body so Knight Errant will continue to leave you alone during the operation. Later, when the body is found and your connection confronts you for breaking your promise, you can persuade him that it wasn't you that committed the murder so that Knight Errant won't start gunning after you. Accordingly, your Running team will switch from street samurai and hardened battle mages to a spell thief, rigger for getting through those confined corners, decker, a Face to talk the team's way forward or out if things go wrong, and a weapon master in case the Face fails.

That's the sort of role playing etiquettes are supposed to enable.

 

[Damned Registrations]

Thats all well and good, but since this isn't PnP, and my character isn't a mime, I'd kind of like it if the words coming out of his mouth made sense given his background, instead of being vague politician level doublespeak that anyone could say, or worse yet just plain retarded shit, like a mage needing someone to explain to him who the Adversary is, or a decker that has never heard the term 'AI' before.

 

[Morality Games]

Thats all well and good, but since this isn't PnP, and my character isn't a mime, I'd kind of like it if the words coming out of his mouth made sense given his background, instead of being vague politician level doublespeak that anyone could say, or worse yet just plain retarded shit, like a mage needing someone to explain to him who the Adversary is, or a decker that has never heard the term 'AI' before.

Fair enough, although I have a hard time understanding how something like that can be a point sink next to say shot guns.

 

[zero29]

I definitely got more than 1 corporate check on my playthrough. There were at least a couple on the aztech run, and there's another at the start of the game with the drug dealer guy. Corp, Security and Street seemed about tied for top place, with street close after that and then the others were basically meh.
...

hm, just checked the dialog files in the editor and i found only one single corporate etiquette check for the aztech run: {{CC}}Etiquette: Corporate{{/CC}} Most of the local wageslaves live an underground tram ride away from their office buildings. Nobody has much of an excuse to go outside.
security checks are all over the place (at least 5) accompanied by two street and one academic checks.

but you're also right, i remembered another instance from the intitial talk about the aztech run with fr. müller. {{CC}}Etiquette: Corporate{{/CC}} Aztechnology, I’d assume. Seems that i forgot to put that one into my list. can't find the drug dealer check you mentioned, do you mean zaak flash? if yes, no etiquette check at all in his dialog file, only a check for the jazz formula and the biotech check about his fake elf ears.

and posting my list wasn't meant as a claim to have found all etiquette checks in the game, i probably missed quite some more checks, especially because i chose to abort the lodge trial run. still compared to street and security i feel that corp is underrepresented.

 

[Damned Registrations]

No, on the run where you go into the hotel. The guy in the top right corner of the map can be convinced to let you into the elevator if you pretend to be bigtime corp guys. I think he also has a gang check.

I might be confusing the lodge trial run with the aztech run for some checks, now that I think about it. Also the run before the Aztech run, I forget what that corp was called but the one where you blow up the servers. They were all in big clean corp spaces with wageslaves and execs to talk to.

 

[zero29]

oh, right, frank the floor manager. didn't find that one. but as is said, there are without a doubt more checks that i missed.

 

[Dreaad]

Seems fine to me as is. Maybe just add in a few multi etiquette choices i.e. shadowrunner or gang member will work. That way instead of just getting a random mega bonus every 5 missions you might get a slightly smaller bonus every 2 or so missions. Plus it would let them soak up some of the completely underused over used etiquette's. After all "corporate" is just as likely to work on guard as is "security". For different cosmetic reason, but same in game effect.

 

[GarfunkeL]

oh, right, frank the floor manager. didn't find that one. but as is said, there are without a doubt more checks that i missed.

Frank has Gang check, Charisma check and Strength check, nothing else, IIRC.

 

[zero29]

nope, he's right, i checked it:

{{CC}}Etiquette: Corporate{{/CC}} Frank. Look at us. We're here on business... *corporate* business.

other checks are gang, charisma, intelligence, not strength.