Incline SHELTER update thread

[GarfunkeL]

Keep up the good work!

 

[shihonage]

Sure will sir

 

[shihonage]

I've accomplished more in the past week than I do in a month. Development of Hillside Penitentiary is far along, and we will have a rough playable area for internal tweaking soon. Really playable, not "trailer playable", and somewhat non-linear.

Though it will take the average person 10 minutes at the most to get out of the prison, I've been doing a lot of work on engine quirks and features that will make development of other areas much faster than this first one.

The purpose of Hillside Penitentiary has been expanded to be not just "Temple of Trials", but also to provide some necessary exposure to the beginning of the game. Now, back to work!

 

[shihonage]

We're working on character stat/build mechanics, combat, and other things.

This video demonstrates rudimentary differences between 3 different builds:

Average Guy
Muscular Simpleton
Frail Scientist

The video was done quickly, without fancy editing, but new Youtube 480p mode allows to see all text on the dialogue and left-bottom textbox window without me having to zoom around it.

Everything here is work in progress and subject to change dramatically at a whim.

The video also demonstrates the concept of "skill-less interaction" - every object can be scripted to be interacted with SOLELY through dialogue. This means we can invent new skills and interaction flows to be applied in select situations specific to any object, as long as we derive the player's ability to do them from his base stats.

For instance, if you meet just one bomb set to go off in the entire game, your specific interaction just for that instance would be a small dialogue-based puzzle relying on your dexterity/intelligence/explosives etc, during which you would actually connect wires and shit.

We're currently reconciling this "everything thru dialogue" approach with the traditional idea of having a static set of skills. Maybe both have to be present. Maybe this idea is crap. Time will tell.

 

[Ogg]

Nice update!

I like your skill-less interaction (though the naming is awful). It makes the interactions very close too what you somehow can expect from a PnP game.

There are still some details I'm questioning. For instance you're offering the opportunity to destroy the computer with brute force. I like the consequence (explosion and noise). But I'm not really fond of the way the check is handled. IMO low stregth character shouldn't be told "you're strength is too low to break it". They should be offered the opportunity to try ... and fail. The same for the "computer skill" test. You shouldn't be told preemptively that you won't be able to do something.

On the other hand, I can imagine some examples where preemptive skill check can work. Let's imagine a computer where vital data on your next mission are stored. An opportunity to look through it and to find map locations should be presented as an option "try to look for the map location". But if your computer skill or intelligence is high enough you could also be offered the option "look for a password". Or something like that.

What's certain is that your dialogue approach offers you much freedom.

 

[shihonage]

Thanks for the thought-out comment.

Yes actually that's what I want to do. Lower one's chances instead of completely denying access. I plan to use a seed system similar to Eschalon II, so that no matter how many times you retry/reload, you will get the same outcome for every object you try your luck with.

In regards to... er... "fluid dialogue interaction?", I am thinking of combining that with basic skills expected from such a game, i.e. using "Science" from dropdown menu on an object like this will consistently generate "a" result of some sort.

However, interacting with it thru dialogue MAY add the "PnP" options as well. The two are not mutually exclusive, and framework for both approaches is the same and is already implemented.

 

[shihonage]

I was hoping to have a new video this week showing upgrades to object interaction, but I wasn't finished in time. These upgrades are:

1) The Player _always_ has a _chance_ to try and hack the object (be it via application of strength, science or lockpicking), even if they fall below requirements.

2) The objects are pre-seeded. Meaning, if you failed to hack it, repeat attempts will fail too.

3) Objects are interacted with via a combination of plain English (dialogue), and skill cursor. I'm not sure this is the most intuitive combination, but I have to finish it, already, before messing with it again. By default, one can always just create objects that require the skill cursor and have no interaction dialogue.

4) Party NPCs will now interact with objects when you ask them to try their hand at it. For objects that requires a combination of dialogue interaction and skills, they will interact with them too, just as the player would. Their actions will show in the text window. I'm excited about this because this functionality will give them a certain appearance of aliveness.You'll see what I mean in the next video.

The reason this is taking longer than I thought, is because changes keep dragging out other required changes. For instance, I had to expand SSL to inject function return codes into dialogue, because it is now a widespread feature, not just showing "Hit chance %", but will also be used in various object interactions.

The NPC behavior will require revamping the AN (Artificial Non-intelligence) to have operational sub-modes, which was a long time coming, because it barely functions without falling apart as is, and generates retarded outcomes. I.E. people who are specifically forbidden to fire at each other, under some conditions, will.

The "Hillside Penitentiary" level is actually playable and there's an outcome in which Zed, a prisoner, helped you escape. Zed was scripted to sacrifice himself by attacking the armed guard. Sometimes it worked as intended. Another time, I ran out of the cell, Guard Simmons trailing behind me, Zed trailing behind Guard Simmons, Guard Simmons turned around and shot at Zed, and then the patrolling Superior Guard, who happened to be nearby, got pissed at all the commotion, apparently, because he raised his minigun and splattered Simmons' brains all over the floor. He didn't attack either me or Zed.

Like I said, Artificial Non-intelligence.

 

[shihonage]

Well, Shelter is now on ModDB (thanks lisac2k for the reminder ) - http://www.moddb.com/games/shelter

I'm still not finished with the upgraded interaction system, but a new video of the interaction improvements should be out within a couple of days.

Also, I posted about making complex games, using ModDB "blog" feature - http://www.moddb.com/members/shihonage/blogs

ZOMG.

Anyway... video coming soon!

 

[shihonage]

That video I promised? Delayed.

New object interaction includes player party==>object interaction, which lead me to start solving the AI modes/pathfinding problems on the way.

I have a dev. plan, but this is going slowly because this week I haven't done much work on Shelter. Shelter is a project that consumes a lot of energy and time.

Whenever my focus gets severely skewed toward Shelter, I make a burst of progress, neglect my physical and mental health, and then come to a stall. This time I'm evading the stall by re-engaging my physical activities and trying, for the umpteenth time, to establish a workable balance.

This week, however, we did finish the remaining details of Shelter's setting and how exactly the game starts, in great detail. It's a good thing we're not directly copying Fallout setting, because id software's RAGE, well, is.

 

[shihonage]

So I painted myself into a corner with Shelter's 9-million square "feet" map and "real people traveling it" (tm). It had its benefits, some of which are very important (such as the ability to check any NPCs' state at any time, even if they're out of town). The drawbacks, however, is that now I'm struggling handling the so-called "pathfinding" function when NPC is crossing between the "big map" and "local map".

Because I forgot exactly how it functions. That happens a lot with Shelter code. Because it's enormous, and my head, as I've realized, has limited storage capacity.

This whole big map thing is gonna make for some pretty dull between-town encounters. This is yet another problem looming on the horizon, which will require lame solutions.

Lame solutions are becoming a pattern now. Since there's a neverending array of problems to solve, I am resorting to LAME SOLUTIONS(tm). Pathfinding will be faked in a number of cases, and people you meet on "encounter" maps will moved out of solid structures that will inevitably end up occupying the same space.

In many cases, I'm settling for illusion of functionality over actual functionality. LAME SOLUTIONS 4 LYFE, YO.

Also, I'm still trying to find balance between real life and Shelter, and meanwhile, dev. speed continues to suffer.

 

[Unradscorpion]

Great to know this is still developing.

 

[WhiskeyWolf]

Great to know this is not dead, yet.

fix

 

[shihonage]

We've come too far to die.

For a while now I've been thinking of making a video of gameplay segment starting in prison (first area) and the whole escape sequence. There's more non-linearity based on character builds in it.

But it didn't seem prudent since the writing there is 50% placeholder and the game flow itself doesn't fully match the current document.

 

[Hory]

So I painted myself into a corner with Shelter's 9-million square "feet" map and "real people traveling it" (tm). It had its benefits, some of which are very important (such as the ability to check any NPCs' state at any time, even if they're out of town). The drawbacks, however, is that now I'm struggling handling the so-called "pathfinding" function when NPC is crossing between the "big map" and "local map".

Hah, as soon as I read the first sentence, I wanted to ask you how you managed to implement pathfinding on it.

 

[shihonage]

No longer can you fool the NPCs by sharply turning corners or getting lost in a maze of obstacles. They will appear around the corner, or in the doorway, like rabid dogs on your trail.

They now have a particular set of skills that they acquired over an extremely short career.

They will find you.
And they will kill you.

Welcome to Fake Pathfinding(tm).

That guy with the minigun - he wasn't supposed to find his way over there. And he didn't. But yet it seemed like he did. The principles used in Fake Pathfinding are similar to the ones seen in spawning Left 4 Dead zombie hordes - and I am still fixing a few similar problems.

It works fine in most cases - NPCs run at you from around corners, or from doorways. But there are still instances when a scripted game event teleports you into a room (with no doors), and a few seconds later a combatant following you appears smack dab in the middle of it, like some sort of X-Man.

Rule #1 of Fake Pathfinding: it should give the appearance of being plausible. People appearing from thin air are not plausible. But fear not, this problem shall be fixed!

And after that, I'll finally finish the parent task: new object/NPC interaction. Without NPCs being able to find their way around obstacles, giving them orders was a crapshoot.

Until now.

 

[Jim Cojones]

But there are still instances when a scripted game event teleports you into a room (with no doors)

Sounds weird. Can you post an example why would that happen?

 

[Hory]

Building rooms without doors for surprising inattentive teleporters is a common prank in the future. The legal variant requires windows, around which pranksters sit, shouting mocking remarks at victims, such as "Hey, caveman, it's the future, haven't you heard of a thing called door?" or "Close the window on your way out."

 

[shihonage]

In the prison (start) map, there are parts when you talk to the Warden. Since the entire area is the game's jumpstart, and is claustrophobically self-enclosed, it is very structurally different from how the rest of the game will work.

While you're a prisoner, you do not have a lot of freedom. However scripting all that in - being escorted from cell to cell, and various contingencies for when player decided to break the shit out of that - would be an enormous waste of time, since this functionality would not be reused in other parts of the game.

Because after getting out, you're no longer a prisoner, and can roam around the world in Fallout fashion.

So in the beginning you talk to the door of your cell (there's a guard behind it), and he takes you to the Warden. This means, teleporting to Warden's room.

Once teleported there, Warden immediately initiates dialogue, limiting your actions to dialogue choices. His room does not need doors or windows, because one of the choices will teleport you back to your cell. And we're not making cosmetically pleasing levels right now, because we're not keeping FO:T graphics.

All transportation between cells inside prison is done through dialogue with Warden or guards, until you eventually get more leeway in your actions.

 

[Fritz Haber]

Your diligent work and reports on said work are much appreciated.
(<3)

 

[shihonage]

Your moral support is much appreciated as well.

Here's how player talks to the door(guard) and gets transported to Warden's room.

 

[shihonage]

This weekend, my main development time, was completely occupied by family-related matters. So was Friday night. This slowed down the development again.

I'm almost done with the new interaction system. At first I wanted to apply the same approach to everything, such as having 4 strength when a door requires 5 strength would give you 80% chance of ripping it off - but that seemed ... weird.

So strength now works the old way. If you're not strong enough, you're just not strong enough. Other skills, like LOCKPICK and SCIENCE, work the "standard" way.

Right now I choose to show required strength directly, because it makes creating new character builds easier.

In this example, LOCKPICK and "rip panel off" accomplish the same thing - compromise the lock. After the lock is compromised, you can apply SCIENCE to what's underneath, finally unlocking the door.

In above screenshot, yes, you are, in fact, the best lockpicker on the entire planet.

 

[shihonage]

This updated NPC/Object interaction video shows how:

* Skills are applied by Player
* Player can ask NPC to assist them with operating an object

There are two parts: one where player is strong and NPC is smart, and vice versa.

... in an epic quest to get by a security door and to the contents of a mysterious chest! (same level as in last video, but levels weren't the point here)

 

[ghostdog]

Nice, but you should make the NPC's walk slower because I saw that you had a hard time clicking on him

 

[shihonage]

Yeah, there's a number of issues like that that I'm still working on.

 

[shihonage]

Our previous (and working) "dynamic world" model was turning out to be a rather useless gimmick. In theory, it had over a thousand NPCs walking around minding their own business. In practice, it created the following problems:

* Bland encounters. Fallout's encounters were set-piece maps, while ours would have to be very generic, because we cannot place NPCs where we want them, because you really DO encounter them at random, and they don't know what map they're on. In fact they'd end up under buildings.

* Running out of shit to kill. Fallout spawned NPCs on each of the set-piece maps, instead of having you kill real ones. In Shelter, we'd have to magically revive them when you're not looking.

* Unreliable passability control (related to above) - there are some areas through which you should have great difficulty passing unprepared. This was far easier to do by summoning Fallout's encounters as often as needed, rather than waiting for player to "run into a real patrol" in Shelter.

* Inability to prevent unintentional homicide - let's say we have a number of interesting NPCs traversing the map. The longer you wait, the higher their chances are of being killed by a pack of rats, or whatever. It sounds exciting but it contributes to our inability to control the experience.

* Higher CPU requirements (I am still hoping to have Shelter playable on a NETBOOK).

So, right now I am busy changing our system into Fallout's fake encounters. We will have our set-piece maps, and they will be delicious!

Nothing in that game was by accident, I tell you. All too often I end up arriving to the same design decisions they did, by reinventing the bicycle, instead of just imitating them from the start and saving time.