Shield mechanics in AoD

[Vault Dweller]

Need some opinions. Here is everything about shields in AoD as it is right now, but I have time for tweaking:

4 shield types: small (buckler), medium (oval), large, tower.

Shields give you a chance to block attacks, in which case shields DR (damage resistance) absorbs portion of the damage (depends on the shield type and material). Shields DR value is added on top of armor DR value, so whatever gets through shield could be stopped by armor.

Shields are not degradable, they have no HPs, they can't be repaired, but they can be upgraded (bronze, iron, steel, mithril). Upgrades increase DR values, and reduce chance of disarming by weaker weapons (see below)

Success at blocking an attack depends on Block skill (replaced Parry, for those who care). Shields are great vs arrows and throwing, good vs swords, spears; ok vs axes, xbow bolts; weak vs hammers. Great, good, ok, weak mean different "vs DR" bonuses.

Some weapons have certain bonuses and traits. Sickle sword is much harder to block, bearded axe can pull shield off, and some heavy weapons (2H axe, long spear, etc) can be stuck in a shield forcing your opponent to drop it (you choose Disarm Shield attack for that). That disarms your character too, as your weapon is now stuck in the shield (could be recovered after the battle), but at least the shield is out of the way, and you can use a backup weapon.

An alternative to using shields is dodging attacks (Block vs Dodge). High Block skill gives you a chance to disarm your opponent. High Dodge skill gives you a chance for a bonus attack. You can block attacks with your weapons using Block skill, but mechanics are different there.

If you have a shield equipped, the game will assume that you will attempt to block an attack no matter how low your skill is. If you don't have a shield, the defence formula will takes the highest value (dodge, block) after all modifiers have been applied.

Opinions? Suggestions?

 

[Whipporowill]

I really like the idea of a primary heavy weapon to handle shields and switching to a lighter secondary for quick melee, once the shield is pulled away. Can't wait to see that in action - will there be any kind of specialization, say for guys who'd like to handle shields like mentioned?

 

[obediah]

I thought this was going to be animations for a character that built mechanical shields.

 

[Vault Dweller]

@ Whipporowill

No, I don't see a need to. The anti-shield mechanics are there. There are some varieties like sickle sword and bearded axe for those who don't want to lose the primary weapon, hammers for that special extra impact, and the trade-off dealio. You use what you want.

Anyway, since you are interested in this particular feature, I have a question for you. At this point, the success of the disarming "trade off" attack is always 80%. I figured if you have a large axe, and you want to hit the shield really hard so that the axe would stuck, and your opponent will try to help you there by putting his shield up and catching your axe, the odds of that should be pretty high, but not high enough to hit constantly. Some of my team mates feel that the odds should be attached to some skills/stats. That would be closer to the specialization you've had in mind. What are your thoughts on that?

 

[Vault Dweller]

I thought this was going to be animations for a character that built mechanical shields.

lol That's hilarious. Quite a concept

 

[Whipporowill]

I'd suggest setting a target number for the shield - say 10 damage, that would be required for your weapon to get stuck (better shields, higher value as metal is a lot harder than wood and so on). I don't think that a stat test should be necessary once the weapon's stuck as the shield should be pretty useless to due to massive extra weight and loss of balance, but a STR vs STR test makes some kind of sense as a stronger fighter should pack some extra grunt resisting if you're looking to add some kind of struggle to the mechanic and just not some random numbers.

 

[Vault Dweller]

The target number makes sense, and that's the best way to handle different materials (steel shield vs bronze axe). STR would provide the damage bonus anyway, which would be added to the roll. Thanks.

 

[Whipporowill]

How will you solve animation b tw? I can see a problem with matching shield sizes with different weapons et c. Or am I just imagining a problem that doesn't really exist?

 

[obediah]

For flavor I'd force a drop check anytime a shields DR is exceeded, maybe just as simple/rare as when your block skill check is made exactly, or have the probability scale down as block skill increases.

 

[Vault Dweller]

Doesn't really exist, imo. Only a few weapons are heavy enough for that, they will use the power attack animation and they will connect with a shield. Weapons sticking out of shields won't be shown, obviously.

We'll show some animations soon.

 

[Vault Dweller]

For flavor I'd force a drop check anytime a shields DR is exceeded, maybe just as simple/rare as when your block skill check is made exactly, or have the probability scale down as block skill increases.

That's a great idea. Thanks.

 

[Claw]

Shields give you a chance to block attacks, in which case shields DR (damage resistance) absorbs portion of the damage (depends on the shield type and material). Shields DR value is added on top of armor DR value, so whatever gets through shield could be stopped by armor.

What range is the DR value? Is it likely to completely absorb a one/two handed weapon's damage?
I would love it if the skill would factor into the absorption, something like the difference between the value necessary to block successfully and the value actually rolled.

bearded axe can pull shield off, and some heavy weapons (2H axe, long spear, etc) can be stuck in a shield forcing your opponent to drop it (you choose Disarm Shield attack for that). That disarms your character too, as your weapon is now stuck in the shield (could be recovered after the battle), but at least the shield is out of the way, and you can use a backup weapon.

Neat. Just what I thought about reading EvoG's thread recently. I don't quite understand though, how does the bearded axe's ability work? Pure chance, Disarm Shield without losing the weapon?

You can block attacks with your weapons using Block skill, but mechanics are different there.

Not telling?

If you have a shield equipped, the game will assume that you will attempt to block an attack no matter how low your skill is. If you don't have a shield, the defence formula will takes the highest value (dodge, block) after all modifiers have been applied.

I guess it would be asked too much that you get a chance on both? It'd seem more natural if you could either dodge or block an attack. Guess I'd favour dodging skill being a factor in the ToHit roll.

Anyway, since you are interested in this particular feature, I have a question for you. At this point, the success of the disarming "trade off" attack is always 80%.

I'll reply anyway. I favour stat influence personally. Pretty much a matter of principle, and I figure an experienced warrior might know how to reduce the chance of losing his shield like that when taking a blow.

 

[Vault Dweller]

What range is the DR value? Is it likely to completely absorb a one/two handed weapon's damage?

2 (buckler) - 8 (tower shield)

For reference, dagger 1-5, one handed sword 4-12, two handed sword 6-14 plus +1 vs DR. Those are "bronze" values. Upgrading would increase those values, plus there are techniques that would add vs DR bonuses.

I would love it if the skill would factor into the absorption, something like the difference between the value necessary to block successfully and the value actually rolled.

That's how it is done. Chance to block = [weapon skill]-[block skill], i.e. your Sword skill is 120, your opponent Block skill is 70, chance to hit is 50%

Neat. Just what I thought about reading EvoG's thread recently. I don't quite understand though, how does the bearded axe's ability work? Pure chance, Disarm Shield without losing the weapon?

The "beard" part of such an axe was historically used to grab a shield and pull it away, similarly to hooked spears, which we don't have.

You can block attacks with your weapons using Block skill, but mechanics are different there.

Not telling?

Wanted to focus this thread on shields. I'll post it later.

I guess it would be asked too much that you get a chance on both? It'd seem more natural if you could either dodge or block an attack. Guess I'd favour dodging skill being a factor in the ToHit roll.

Well, I doubt that you'd have enough skill points to develop both skills. It makes sense for a character to use his best skills anyway.

Pretty much a matter of principle, and I figure an experienced warrior might know how to reduce the chance of losing his shield like that when taking a blow.

We can use Block skill here. Makes sense. Thanks.

 

[Balor]

Btw, drop checks should only apply to buckler shield, since only those shields are held in a fist - other shields use harness and simply hang on your hand... so, 'disarming' them makes as much sense as 'disarming' a breatplate .
Btw, buckers can be quite big and heavy - however, due to them being held in a first, they have higher STR reqs, but greater block chance (at least, considered to shields of about same size) due to higher manueverability.

 

[obediah]

Btw, drop checks should only apply to buckler shield, since only those shields are held in a fist - other shields use harness and simply hang on your hand... so, 'disarming' them makes as much sense as 'disarming' a breatplate .
Btw, buckers can be quite big and heavy - however, due to them being held in a first, they have higher STR reqs, but greater block chance (at least, considered to shields of about same size) due to higher manueverability.

This crossed my mind as well, but I figured it might be an abstraction. Since a 'disarm' is basically entangling your weapon in the shield, perhaps it's best to just assume the shield bearer has a quick release mechanism and drops the shield.

Not that modelling more details wouldn't be cool, it just has to be balanced against pacing and the how much you get out of the complexity It would be cool to distinguish from dropped, destroyed, entangled, and attached by harness to a broken forearm, but we're kind of getting into turn based Street Fighter - (not a bad thing, but a big change to make)

 

[Claw]

I just read Ismaul's post so this question crossed my mind:
Will Shields go into a weapon slot? If so, can you use them as weapon? Because, that'd be great obviously.
Shields could have different properties as Ismaul described, so a tower shield would offer better defense while a buckler would could be used as weapon more effectively.

 

[Vault Dweller]

Not at the moment. Shields go into weapon slots, so potentially they could be used for something other than passive defense.

 

[callehe]

Nice system you have there, much better than anything I've seen out there... though I do have some issues:

why can only heavy weapons get stuck in shields? lighter weapons should also be able to get stuck. A fighter with a wooden shield (are there wooden shields?) could use this to his advantage by disarming his opponent with his shield.

also I think that metal shields should not be able get weapons stuck in them, no logic in that - only wooden shields should have this feature.

(well maybe a thrown spear could penetrate a metal shield too).

 

[Vault Dweller]

Nice system you have there, much better than anything I've seen out there...

Thanks

why can only heavy weapons get stuck in shields?

I assume all weapons can, but only heavy weapons are, well, heavy enough to force your opponent to drop the shield. That's the idea.

...are there wooden shields?

Technically, no. The game uses 4 metals of which various handy stuff is made. I don't really care whether a shield is wooden and only reinforced by some metal or made completely out of metal. We are dealing with concepts here designed to make the game more interesting and interactive.

A fighter with a wooden shield could use this to his advantage by disarming his opponent with his shield.

It's a possibility, I suppose, but I don't want to overpower shields

I think that metal shields should not be able get weapons stuck in them, no logic in that - only wooden shields should have this feature.

See above.

 

[callehe]

To me it seems more critical to lose your main weapon than to lose your shield, this is why i think getting the weapon stuck is more to the advantage to the shield user. I think this was real tactic used by some barbaric races fighting romans, but the romans countered it with throwing spears that got stuck in the shields making them useless before melee combat.

My idea is to have wooden shields in the game but make them weaker defence, and breakable (after weapon get stuck), but be able to make even small weapons get stuck in them. This would be a completely different tactics apart from what one can employ with the metal shields. What do you think about this balance?

 

[Vault Dweller]

To me it seems more critical to lose your main weapon than to lose your shield...

It's your choice. At this point a weapon won't get stuck by accident, you have to chose Disarm Shield attack, which, if successful, would drop both the weapon and the shield. You can use other tactics though.

My idea is to have wooden shields in the game but make them weaker defence, and breakable (after weapon get stuck), but be able to make even small weapons get stuck in them. This would be a completely different tactics apart from what one can employ with the metal shields. What do you think about this balance?

I like the idea of breakable shields - I wanted to do something like that by giving shields HPs instead of DR, but we had some concerns (like people carrying shitload of shields into battles) and it was rejected. The idea itself is good, and considering that disarm mechanics are already in place, it's relatively easy to add another formula. No breakable stuff though.