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Incline Shoot'em up goodness (review and discuss)

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Forum kiddy my ass. It's just that life is too short to play mediocre or gimmicky shit.
The same is true for many other genres. Once you played Doom and Quake, most other FPSs feel like clunky amateur shit, to give another examole. There are exceptions, just like there are some shmups outside the Toaplan/Cave catalog which are worth playing, but the rule still stands.
Doom and Quake are foundational games, Cave games are derivative and iterative and came at a point where the genre was already in steady decline. Your comparison makes no sense, you have it exactly backwards.

It's cool that you like Cave games, but to discard an ancient and storied genre, full of variety, because you're awestruck with some jap superplay performance is pretty ridiculous. But whatever.
 

fork

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Are you retarded? I don't even watch others play. Toaplan and Cave shmups simply are the best to play, they have the best flow, all the way from first learning them to mastering them. They're fun all the way. Unlike some really convoluted shit like Battle Garegga or actually overrated, gimmicky crap like Ikaruga. And most pre-Toaplan games and most Horis in general are simply archaic, too clunky and not fun.

Licorice Agreed, great example of an exception there.
 
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I'm sure you learn Cave games all by yourself and never watch replays of autistic chaining to try and replicate. You're really special.
 

Nutmeg

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Unlike some really convoluted shit like Battle Garegga
It's only convoluted if playing at a high level, and by then you want it to be. If you're just trying to go for the 1CC you don't have to care about any of the meta, although you will naturally look it up and learn it as you get closer to your clear and want to optimize.

best flow,
If you're into flow try Konami horis. They have similar game loops to Toaplan.
 

Falksi

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Thoughts on a few I've played recently.

All worth a play ......

UN Squadron/Area 88 - SNES/Arcade

gAGCMZA.jpg


The UK mag Mean Machines, (the console lovechild of Zzap and C&VG's Julian "Jaz" Rignall, who went on to be chief editor at IGN 97-02), was culturally massive in gaming circles in the early 90's. The humour, style, and brutal honesty made it legendary amongst me & my group of friends, and whatever it said went. Thanks to that mag, we got guided in the direction of games which we wouldn't even have considered normally. And this leads us to UN Squadron, also known as Area 88. Xmas '91 saw this arrive from Santa, along with Super Ghouls and ghosts, and I lost many an hour to it.

Firstly I played through the SNES version. It's a very considered game all round, and you can tell that they'll put some real effort into creating enemy attack patterns which challenge you a lot at first, but also offer enough gaps to be exploited the more familiar you become with the game. It creates a top learning curve, and feels very rewarding. The energy bar system is also very clever too. You can get hit numerous times, but if you get hit a second time within several seconds of the first hit you instantly lose a life. It adds some reals tension, and creates a great dynamic whereby when you do get hit you have to go on the defensive. This works great in the full context of the game, as a lot of it is geared up to encourage a more aggressive approach all round. The push & pull between both dynamics is absolutely bang on.

The smattering of slightly tactical elements work spot on too. You get to choose levels accordingly, buy different aircraft, buy different weapons' etc. There's enough in there to add an additional layer of depth & keep the game grounded in that more "considered" vibe, but not so much as to bog the game down. The power up system is nob on the money as well, as each one essentially serves as "experience points", so you "level up" the more you collect, rather than get a different type of weapon (you buy those between stages). This means if you keep getting stuck on the same stage, each time you attempt it you'll get that bit more powerful as you keep collecting power-ups, and it really helps motivate you to keep trying if you are struggling. It also adds to a few of the tactical decisions too, as finding & playing "experience"-heavy levels can help overcome other, tougher ones.

And there's some real dogfighting going off at times too, and it feels flipping mint. Some enemies take more than just a shot or two to kill on harder levels, and this creates some situations where you're chasing each other round for a noticeable amount of time. The pressure is always on to dispatch them asap in order to stay on top, as new enemies some thick & fast, and the exciting dynamic this creates gets the adrenaline really going at times.

However, all a bit too often you get bummed from behind or out of nowhere. Once you've learned the stages you rarely fall for it again, but it does feel cheap. The bullshit factor ramps up significantly towards later levels too, with one or two bosses in particular starting to grate, and the final 3rd does become a bit tiresome on the whole. In fact the first 2/3rds of the game is balanced notably better than the last 3rd all round. At times during the last 3rd you're really up against it to the point where even the slightest mistake will finish you. And whilst I like the soundtrack, I also found it a bit lacking and bland at times too. The background graphics also fall into that category - does the job, but nowt special either.

It's a really, really, really good game which oozes quality, and carries some great weight. But there's enough flaws & enough frustration during the last 3rd, just to cut it short of being a classic.

:4/5:


Arcade Version

Now the arcade version is very similar, but does have enough different elements to be of note. Firstly you can't select stages; secondly you can't buy additional aircraft - you're choice of character determines what aircraft you get and that's it, you're stuck with it; thirdly a lot of the stages are somewhat different, with some being completely different altogether; fourthly that extends to several bosses, with numerous ones being different from the SNES counterpart; and finally it is significantly faster & snappier than the SNES version too.

Unsurprisingly, overall the arcade version is a more arcade popamoley experience. It's not bad for that, and those who prefer that may prefer this version. But if you were to ask me I'd say that the SNES version clearly stands out as the better of the two, and feels the more well-rounded and balanced experience.

:3/5:


Hellfire - Megadrive/Arcade

ayPuEO6.jpg


I am the god of hell fire and I bring you: Hellfire!. And so forth. Hellfire was a game with a big rep around our way back in the day. Famed for it's tough as old boots difficulty, it was hailed by many a gaming expert (including those at Mean Machines) as one of the best shooters out there. In fact to quote MM - "Simply the best shmup currently available on the Megadrive. Need we say more? 93%". So I loved SHMUPS, I loved my Megadrive, I loved Mean Machines and treated the likes of Jaz Rignall as a hero......so why didn't I ever buy, or even play this? I'd like to pretend it's one of those weird little mysteries, but it's not. It's because I thought it looked pretty shit. No fancy power-ups, no outlandish bosses, an unconventional shooting method etc. I just never wanted it. So it was nice to finally getting round to see if I'd missed out.

And yes, yes I have. What makes Hellfire stand out is that your weapon is multi-directional from the off. It can fire either forward, backwards, vertically or diagonally at the push of a button, and so the game becomes a bit of a thinking man's shooter. Not only are you having to dodge, weave & blast as standard, but you're also having to cycle through your shooting modes to give you the best offensive setup as this goes off. It adds something of a slight "puzzle" element to the action, and this definitely gives it a touch of uniqness. In fact it feels really fresh, as the enemy attack patters are obviously designed to draw the most of this, and prompt you as such. So it's easy to see why back then, when everything was an R-Type clone, it stood out.

And fuck me can you get your buzz on in this game. It often walks an incredibly brilliant line between bullet hell, and giving you enough breathing room to get by. It gets hella intense in ten cities, and those moments are also placed & paced superbly throughout the game, giving you time to catch your breath slightly, then go full out for another dose.

But by 'eck is this game tough at times. There's no Normal difficulty mode, just either allegedly "Easy", or "Bollocks of steel" Hard. And when starting off I strongly advise you donning your make-up & skirt on and playing on Easy, because after the first level things get very tough very quick. Easy mode is hard, and hard mode is granite. With that said though, bizarrely the last level seems easier than those leading up to it.

The game's downer comes in it's old school structure. Die and you have to start from earlier in the level, and with no power or speed upgrades. Now they have designed the game well enough so that you still have a fighting chance, and getting some semblance of power back sharpish is often achievable. Being fully upgraded also doesn't make a mammoth sized amount of difference either. But despite all that, it still doesn't stop it being just damn annoying when you die, lose all your upgrades & have to re-run a section of the level. It's a design choice which has always annoyed me, and I'm afraid here that's no different.

Also, cycling between firing modes could have been smoother had more buttons been available. It's OK as it is, but it's also not uncommon to cycle past the mode you need, and have to go round again to get to it, costing you valuable seconds in often tight situations. And yes, it looks pretty mediocre, with bland backgrounds & unspectacular enemies. There are some absolutely banging tunes to compensate though, and the soundtrack really kicks arse. But visually it's as mediocre as they come.

Hellfire's a proper fun blast, with a bit of something different and definitely worth a play. How much you like it will boil down to just how prepared to get smacked by some brick walls, and if the older school design choices which it makes get on your nerves. Do I love it? No, it pissed me off enough and is too bland looking for it to be in my classic collection. But did I have a great buzz with it? Absolutely. Not so much a "must own" as a "must play". Like a dirty, average looking lass you probably wouldn't have a relationship with, but who gives a killer blowjob and you'd empty your load on now & again.

:4/5:


Arcade version

Now with all that said, the arcade version has a few key differences, and with them come a few contradictions. Firstly it's obviously automatically set to "Hard" mode, so no warm up here. But more significantly, it removes the "start from earlier in the level when you die" mechanic, and just keeps things rolling. Unfortunately, with this being hard mode from the off, this now highlights just how underpowered you are without any power-ups, and sheds light on the probable reasons as to why they decided to start you from earlier in the level for the Megadrive version. As once you're into the second level your attack power becomes redundant against most enemies other than the twee cannon fodder, and this really kills a lot of interest in the game.

Other than that it's pretty much identical to the Megadrive version, and somewhere between the two is a 5/5 game trying to burst out. But as it is neither quite get the balance right. If I had to choose, I'd go with the Megadrive version. The real solution to their issues should have been to add a bit more kick to your initial weapons, and lose a ranking of power when you die, rather than the full lot of powers ups. But Que Sera.

:3/5:



Thunderforce 4 - Megadrive

iZkuqPR.jpg

^Bland backdrops like this aren't uncommon. "Hi, we're in Delaware......"

Often hailed as the best in the series, I find it quite surprising that - being a huge fan of Thunderforce 3 and playing it very regularly - I rarely play this game. I never owned it on cart back in the day, but I did have it in my early PC emulation collection. Me wonders what the reason is for this lack of play time over the years? Time to find out and time to get thunderstruck again.

Well it's just not that good IMO unfortunately. It's not bad, there's some really well crafted portions & there's some fun to be had, but for every bit I enjoyed there was another bit which I got annoyed or bored with. First thing that hit me was the change of vibe from previous entries with the early tunes. There's the odd good tune in there later on, but far too many jazzy, placid tracks for my liking overall. Music is of course a personal preference, but the more laid back vibe of some of the tracks just doesn't suit a game of this ilk IMO. They should feel more exciting & intense from the off. Later in the game things do ramp up, but it's a bit like sitting down to watch an Arnie flick, and having the first 2/3rds of the movie centered around a family drama before the violence & action kicks in.

And that extends to the levels themselves & game as a whole. TF4's first level is a bit tricky, but then the next few are a cakewalk, and fairly characterless too. I think Stage 6 was when the game really started to kick in for me and the level design got interesting, but by then it's almost over. When you do finally get to some enjoyable action for the last 3-4 stages it is pretty good, but again it's all too little too late, and even then it's more "good" than "amazing".

Some of the boss fights can't half drag out too. There's some well designed ones, with some clever patterns, but some seem to take an absolute age to kill off, even when fully powered. Something else which irked me is how reliant you are on power ups as well. The main weapon seems too weak to me, yet once you've acquired a power up or two you're a bit too overpowered for certain sections, so it feels imbalanced in this respect (which again is a departure from far better balanced third entry)

But it does have some great graphics, the odd cracking tune, and a few welcome additions to the previous games. These include the screen scrolling vertically when you move your ship up/down to match, thus giving you more of a playing field to fight in. It doesn't make a huge difference, but it adds a bit of something at least. And whilst the balance of weapon strength is off, the power ups themselves are also fun, with each one feeling different and useful. You can't always rely on the same power up either - it's very situational - so they definitely have a much better balance there than with other parts of the game, as you are constantly having to chop & change as appropriate to match said situation. Yes you rely on them too much as stated earlier, but when you do have them it does work well.

Filler is a killer, and that's the case here. T4 isn't a bad game at all. It's OK, and can be quite enjoyable at times. But it just didn't grab or excite me anywhere near as much as TF3, it felt bland, padded out & saggy in parts, and I doubt I'll return to it again. After finishing it, I popped the previous entry on for a quick blast, and couldn't put it down until I finished it. TF4 didn't really grab me at all, but I would say that if you're a SHMUP fan still give it a go, because a fair few of my complaints such as music are down to personal taste, and if it grabs you from the off there are a lot of decent elements in there. So it's at least worth trying.

:3/5:
 
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Unlike some really convoluted shit like Battle Garegga
It's only convoluted if playing at a high level, and by then you want it to be. If you're just trying to go for the 1CC you don't have to care about any of the meta, although you will naturally look it up and learn it as you get closer to your clear and want to optimize.

best flow,
If you're into flow try Konami horis. They have similar game loops to Toaplan.
Some of my favourite Toaplan games are actually their top-down action games, Out Zone and FixEight. Very fun!
 

Nutmeg

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Falksi Nice. Surprised you gave TF4 only 3/5. But I guess if you didn't like the OST that makes sense. I love it. I listen to it by itself very often.

Timestamped to one of the best tracks in gaming, IMO:



The gameplay has some cool ideas, I like the huge amount of vertical space to "explore", and I also like the use of 3/4 view so you get vert-like background enemies in your hori e.g. in the desert stage (one of the opening 4).
 

fork

Guest
I'm sure you learn Cave games all by yourself and never watch replays of autistic chaining to try and replicate. You're really special.

I do, because that's what's fun about them. Once I've hit a ceiling in a game, if I still enjoy it and want to get better, yes, I watch the occasional superplay. But you suggested I'd seen a Cave superplay and based my opinion on that, which is retarded on your part and makes it clear you're no longer worth responding to.

Also your calling Cave games derivative, ignoring the fact that they're basically refined Toaplan games, which actually could be called foundational just as much as Doom, or at least Quake, makes me even more confident in my assessment that your opinion is pretty much worthless.

And now the faggot is out of arguments. lol
 
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Nutmeg

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By the way it's only tangentially related, but I want to highlight how awesome Technosoft are as a developer and what a profound influence they've had on all of gaming.

They are responsible for the RTS genre with Herzog and Herzog Zwei.

Their spin-off Arsys (Wibarm, Star cruiser, Knight arms) and it's successor Polyphony Digital (Omega Boost, Gran Turismo) is the Japanese equivalent of id Software in terms of its influence on the technical side of Japanese real time 3D rendering.

Spinoff CAP likewise has a great track record of cult classics. They made Winds of Thunder and Sapphire, two of the best PCE shmups, Hagane on the SFC, and Bulk Slash on the Saturn, they also worked on Dodonpachi (responsible for the music).

They began as a humble Japanese PC dev, and churned out some of the best talent in the industry. Kind of indicates they struggled to hold on to talent, but it's interesting that they attracted so much of it.
 

Nutmeg

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ignoring the fact that they're basically refined Toaplan games
Ikeda, not Toaplan. Toaplan's distinct flavor was all Uemara + Yuge, who went onto Gazelle and Takumi respectively.

And early Ikeda (V-V) really doesn't bare much resemblance to late Ikeda. Feveron was the last Cave game you could say felt a little like Toaplan, IMO.

Also IMO Ikeda and Cave gave up around 1999 and just started milking. I mean look at the variety prior and compare it with afterwards where everything is just cheaply made quickly churned out variant on DDPDOJ. I mean it's clear he just stopped caring.
 

Falksi

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Falksi Nice. Surprised you gave TF4 only 3/5. But I guess if you didn't like the OST that makes sense. I love it. I listen to it by itself very often.

Timestamped to one of the best tracks in gaming, IMO:

The gameplay has some cool ideas, I like the huge amount of vertical space to "explore", and I also like the use of 3/4 view so you get vert-like background enemies in your hori e.g. in the desert stage (one of the opening 4).

That track is a belter, and by far my fave in the game. Had it been laced with those throughout I think I would have found it more intense from that perspective for sure.

But compare that to TF3, and not only does the music stay intense throughout, but so does the action on the whole. TF4 felt like a watered down version of it all round.

Specifically on the soundtrack, I can't pick my fave between all these..........











....and the other tracks are just as belting too.

Like I say, I think TF4' worth a play and that it'll have enough to keep some happy. But I also think it's nowhere near as well rounded, full on or good as TF3.

Technosoft are awesome. I'm just playing their pinball masterpiece Devil Crash. Boom
 

fork

Guest
ignoring the fact that they're basically refined Toaplan games
Ikeda, not Toaplan. Toaplan's distinct flavor was all Uemara + Yuge, who went onto Gazelle and Takumi respectively.

Also IMO Ikeda and Cave gave up around 1999 and just started milking. I mean look at the variety prior and compare it with afterwards where everything is just cheaply made quickly churned out variant on DDPDOJ.

Fair enough, eventhough there are still some great Cave games post DOJ imo.

All I'm saying is that my top10 shmups consist of about 5-6 Cave games and 2-3 Toaplan games. And maybe one or two others. I don't revisit my top lists that often because I don't care much. My point being:

I recommend pretty much the entire Toaplan/Cave catalog and honestly not much else (with very few exceptions). They're in a league of their own; graphics, stage design, enemy patterns, flow, scoring—after playing those games for a while, nothing else is as satisfying anymore. The rest feels like playing some really outdated (in a bad way) shit. And there's a game for every skill-level there, too: noobs play Batsugun Special, DonPachi or Mushi Futari Black Label Original, while pros play Tatsujin Oh/Truxton 2, Ketsui or Mushi Futari 1.5 Ultra.

And not because I've watched a superplay, lol. There are other games worth playing, yes. Some have great music, some have great art, some have good gameplay. I even like some crappy shit from Irem like X-Multiply. :3 But most are only worth it after exhausting the Toaplan/Cave catalog, and most are only of historical interest.
 
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Nutmeg

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I haven't spent a lot of time with Irem yet, but I've loved just about everything I've played that others have described as R-type like. I also love their aesthetics. Serious shmups for serious salarymen, just like Toaplan.

I'm just getting into Konami shmups now. It's taken quite a while for Konami aesthetics to grow on me, but the gameplay immediately clicks. I really recommend Konami for people who like Toaplan. The meat of the games are very different but the structure and flow are very similar, as is the emphasis on tactics. Spent the most time so far with Gradius 2 and Salamander on the PCE, and Detana and Xexex on arcade.

Working on the Xexex 1CC as mentioned earlier. Also spent a lot of time with the PCE port of Detana. I got to the point where I could occasionally make it to the last stage but after a few months hiatus I played a few credits on the arcade original and saw I forgot how to juggle. Probably will continue with the arcade one because IMO the big improvement which draws people to the PCE port - the smaller hitbox - isn't much of a big deal. I mean in both you want to steer well clear of bullets anyway or use the shadows to cancel them. So I'll take the gorgeous and smoother feeling arcade release for now.
 

Falksi

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Seeing as I'm bleating off about Thunderforce 3, thought I'd drop my thoughts of it here too.....

Thunderforce 3 - Megadrive

Thunder_Force_3_JU_0731.jpg

NZ8U1hP.png


Boom! In your fucking face my son. This is what what modern gaming is lacking. The equivalent of a fortnight on the piss with your best mates in the prime of you life. Short, sweet, banging, full of spunk and just a great ride. TF3 grabs you by the bollocks right from the off, and rarely lets go. It's short lived, but it's an intense experience during that time.

TF3 wisely drops the overhead sections found in TF2 and concentrates on it's main strength - the side scrolling ones. It handles these supremely well, it absolutely drowns you with exciting, varied graphics & environments, and backs all that up with some simply amazing music. I mean these tunes are fucking rocking.

The aesthetics aren't the only stunning thing about the game though, it plays like a dream. The enemies & levels are designed absolutely mint, with constantly fast paced and franetic action jolting you around, and some very devious sections too.

In fact Thunderforce 3 has something of a Dark Souls quality it. It's devilishly tricky at times and there are often parts which you've simply no chance of surviving without playing them first. But like Dark Souls a combination of superb atmospherics, immense satisfaction when succeeding, and a great learning curve give it a real charm and somehow make dieing fun.

The various weapons in the game and fact you can operate gears to adjust your speed add a nice little layer of tactical depth to itm which means the right ones used at the right time make a big difference to your progression. For the most part they're all very well balanced in sync with the gameplay, levels and enemies, and this encourages experimentation to find the best one for each situation, thus meaning you don't just pick a fave and rely on it. There do come points though when a combination of shields, extra drones & the weapon "hunter" can make things a bit trivial at times, and those points see it take a large leap from being very challenging to quite easy when fully powered.

Most levels are also very unique, very enjoyable, and keeps things fresh, apart from the last one, in which it becomes very apparent that they ran out of ideas and gave up a bit.

But the intense, full on, "have it" experience which you get the majority of the time is as good as it gets. A thoroughly enjoyable game to this day, and one which every gamer should own.

:5/5:


In fact as I was going through the thread, thought might as well drop the others here too........

Biometal - SNES

256full-bio-metal-screenshot.jpg


I distinctly remember the first time I played this. Round a mates house he had a SNES game copier called a "UFO", and this was one of the first games I tried on it. Smashed me like a ton of bricks in the face, I had no idea that you had a shield which could protect against bullets, and instead played through dodging everything. What a rush. Probably the best I've ever played a game first off as I somehow managed to dodge almost everything and complete the first level losing only 1 life. If you've played this, you'll know that's no mean feat. So returning to it know I braced for impact and fuck me that first level. What an A-M-A-Z-I-N-G, head first dive into bullet hell.

It's your standard side scrolling shooter fair in terms of gameplay & power ups, but it adds several extra elements. Firstly, it is bullet hell, and I mean absolute bullet hell. Barely any room to breath and the regular screen slowdown is often welcome. But you're also given a shield to help out here, and said shield can be used in several different way as a weapon (launched at the enemy, spread round as a mini smart "bomb", or just used to smash into things). It's surprising just how much extra depth & fun this adds, but it really does. You're forever weighing up the pros & cons of turning your shield on/off to reserve it's charge, and it makes for some very tense moments. But it's also done incredibly well, so that you can still focus on the action too. Brilliant stuff.

And let's get to the music. The European version actually feature the totally wank 2-Unlimited "No Limit" track, which I find utterly bizarre as the original music is fucking stunning. Very atmospheric stuff. So if you get the opportunity play the Jap version.

Anyway, the enemies are cool with some very unique HR-Giger esq designs, as is are the level deigns themselves, the boss fights nice enough, and overall it's a mint little package. It does lack a tiny bit of variance in terms of backdrop graphics, and there's more "crunchy" shoot em ups out there, but it's still a hell of a blast.

I personally love it, but it won't be for everyone as it can be frustratingly hard at times.

:4/5:

Cybernator/Assault Suits Valken - SNES

300x.jpg

^Moby's a dick

Back in t'day this was one of those rare gems which you'd find buried beneath a load of trash which the mobile game swapper would take round. "Am caming aaaahhhht eer fa facking chicken feed!" ours would say, as he fleeced the gullible lads for £60 for something like Golden Fighter. "Everyone's buying this daaan taan" he'd say. Meanwhile we'd unearth Cybernator, and be met with a game of wonder. This hit the spot back in the day because it was so different to most other shooters. But has that stood the test of time?

Yeah kinda. It's certainly not as awe-inspiring as it was, but it does enough well to be enjoyable. Movement is spot on. You feel weighty enough to feel like a badass stomping giant Mech motherfucker, but it's also fluid & fast enough to keep the game playable & enjoyable too. The combat is very considered, and it makes for quite a unique experience for a game of that era. There's great level design, with each stage encompassing the feel of what it sets out to, and the story flowing nicely through each too.

Sadly, the more considered pace also makes the game feel somewhat laboured at times, mainly when you have to repeat sections because of losing a life. Running through it once feels great, but second time round I felt myself wanting a bit of a fast forward button.

Plenty to enjoy though.

:4/5:

Space Harrier - Arcade/32X

Vja5P4b.jpg


Now this was a popular arcade machine. In fact Space Harrier was pretty much in every arcade I stepped into back in the day. It's cabinet was something you simply had to jump on when in the gaff, and it swallowed many of my coin over the years. So how does this famous Spaceman (who never actually goes into space) hold up now?

If you like style you'll like this, if you demand substance, then you might not. Space Harrier's appeal is built on it's weirdness and fast pace. All kinds of bizarre & unique enemies come charging at you thick & fast, and the game always has you feeling like you're absorbing an eyeful of mentalness with each new section. A one eyed mamoth, skeleton dragons, giant mushrooms, big flashing balls etc. it's a real trip.

But when your senses settle and come to, you realise that it doesn't actually play that good. See, in the arcade version, Mr Harrier is always drawn back to the centre of the screen because of the cabinet requirements, and it translates to a very quirky style of control setup on emulation. Some will love it, some will hate it, myself I'm in the middle, but the weird "bounceyness" which comes with it was off-putting at times.

It's also more of a dodge-em up than a shoot em up, with the priority focus always on avoiding enemies, obstacles and enemy fire, than killing the enemies. In fact some bosses don't have to be killed, they just fly off after some time, which felt weird. Also, whilst there are some pretty funk & memorable bosses, said bosses are also recycled too much for my liking under different skins too.

And boom do you hit brick walls. I sailed through the first 4 stages to then lose about 5 lives in the space of 2 minutes. Bosh. There just seems to be some sections with way too high difficulty spikes, clearly designed to gobble your coinage.

It still has some magic though and is worth a blast, but for me it's more show than anything else, and it's clear that it's original appeal came from the combo of the action-cab & visual assault giving you a sensory attack.

:3/5:


However.......

Jumping to the 32X version and that seems significantly smoother. It slows the game down very slightly, and most importantly also ditches the centre-drawn bouncy controls for the more traditional 8-way direction controls found in Space Harrier 2. It makes it FAR more playable, more deliberate, and thus made it far more enjoyable all round for me. In fact it's surprising just how much of a difference that it makes. I'd give this version an extra troll easily. A far better balance of intensity & control all round.

:4/5:
 

Darth Canoli

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One of the best 3 minutes gaming has to offer at time stamp, IMO. Clinically dismantling a train fortress housing a secret weapons project as it speeds away from you while swatting away intercepting craft. The music is perfect, the play is perfect, the visuals are gorgeous.

That's the thing about good Shmups they're just 30 minutes of perfection so you don't care that you play the same thing again and again to git gud. You don't really want to play anything else cause nothing else has the same fun over time ratio. Nothing else comes close. Some of the most fun I've had in my gaming life has just been practicing the RF2 mega bosses.


Looks a bit too fast, is it the normal speed or an emulation trick?

Wow, a lot to read, after a short burst, i stopped playing shoot'em up for a while.
Satazius gave a great vibe but i find it a bit too difficult, particularly on the first stage where you're chased by the level's boss and crash on to a wall most of the time and if you fail to kill the boss, of course, you spawn right before the tunnels.
Also, the boss turns the game into a bullet hell which are not my favorites.
A shame, he captured the vibe almost perfectly.

Well, that's a lot of recommendations on "recent" shmups, i'll check them all sooner or later when i feel the itch again.
Jap games names though ... It's hard to take the games seriously.

Falksi
:bro::bro::bro::bro::bro::bro::bro:

I couldn't agree more, Thunderforce III > Thunderforce IV, i owned Thunderforce III cartridge back in the days, one of my favorite and i played IV too as a friend owned TF4.
You absolutely nailed it in your analysis, a lot of filler, lack of inspiration and tunes i didn't like that much, looks like improving the graphics got all the budget and level design had to do with the leftovers.

And thanks for reminding me of U.N. squadron and Hellfire, if you're searching for more antiquities to replay and didn't replay it yet, Forgotten Worlds was quite good if you find a second player, the shops to buy new weapons and modules was a nice touch.

forgottenworlds.jpg
 
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Falksi

Arcane
Joined
Feb 14, 2017
Messages
11,004
Location
Nottingham


One of the best 3 minutes gaming has to offer at time stamp, IMO. Clinically dismantling a train fortress housing a secret weapons project as it speeds away from you while swatting away intercepting craft. The music is perfect, the play is perfect, the visuals are gorgeous.

That's the thing about good Shmups they're just 30 minutes of perfection so you don't care that you play the same thing again and again to git gud. You don't really want to play anything else cause nothing else has the same fun over time ratio. Nothing else comes close. Some of the most fun I've had in my gaming life has just been practicing the RF2 mega bosses.


Looks a bit too fast, is it the normal speed or an emulation trick?

Wow, a lot to read, after a short burst, i stopped playing shoot'em up for a while.
Satazius gave a great vibe but i find it a bit too difficult, particularly on the first stage where you're chased by the level's boss and crash on to a wall most of the time and if you fail to kill the boss, of course, you spawn right before the tunnels.
Also, the boss turns the game into a bullet hell which are not my favorites.
A shame, he captured the vibe almost perfectly.

Well, that's a lot of recommendations on "recent" shmups, i'll check them all sooner or later when i feel the itch again.
Jap games names though ... It's hard to take the games seriously.

Falksi
:bro::bro::bro::bro::bro::bro::bro:

I couldn't agree more, Thunderforce III > Thunderforce IV, i owned Thunderforce III cartridge back in the days, one of my favorite and i played IV too as a friend owned TF4.
You absolutely nailed it in your analysis, a lot of filler, lack of inspiration and tunes i didn't like that much, looks like improving the graphics got all the budget and level design had to do with the leftovers.

And thanks for reminding me of U.N. squadron and Hellfire, if you're searching for more antiquities to replay and didn't replay it yet, Forgotten Worlds was quite good if you find a second player, the shops to buy new weapons and modules was a nice touch.

forgottenworlds.jpg


Top lad :bro::bro::bro:

Glad you can see it with TF4. I mean, I thought it was decent enough, but when you compare it to the third installment it's nowhere near as tightly packaged.

Love Forgotten Worlds mate. Computer & Video Games actually featured a guide of mine for it in it's tips section back in around 91'. I was proud as punch :)

I'll defo be returning to FW soon :salute:
 
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Shitty Kitty

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Messages
556
Skyforce looks cool.

I'm always habitually going back and playing EDF for the SNES. Just something about it that I love- maybe nostalgia as it's a game I played a lot as a youngin.

Tyrian is of course a classic, I would love a kickstarted remake of it. Oddly enough I think I liked the PSP version of it the best.
IIRC Tyrian 2000 is (or was) one of the freebies you could pick as a new GOG accountholder. Wouldn't mind seeing new Tyrian games, or a revisit of Raptor:CotS or Darius Gaiden stuff

also re: Thunderforce

 
Joined
Dec 19, 2012
Messages
1,774
I think when I originally played Tyrian it was the non-2000 version. I seem to remember that mouse-movement was 'unlocked' in that version and that you could zip around the screen if you were using a mouse. Or at very least that you could move a lot faster than you can in 2K.
 
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Shitty Kitty

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Messages
556
I think when I originally played Tyrian it was the non-2000 version. I seem to remember that mouse-movement was 'unlocked' in that version and that you could zip around the screen if you were using a mouse. Or at very least that you could move a lot faster than you can in 2K.
Yeah I remember having the shareware version back in the day but the computer it was installed on is about 25 years dead

Honestly for a good SHMUP fix, snagging a decent NES emulator and Gun-Nac or Stinger/Twinbee is an option (or SNES and Gradius 3/R-Type III, or take your pick really)
 

Nutmeg

Arcane
Vatnik Wumao
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Messages
23,251
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Mahou Kingdom
Regarding the TF III vs TF IV debate I guess it depends on where you like your difficulty to come from. I put a few hours into TF AC (basically III in a cabinet with a few tweaks) but ended up dropping it because I realized once you remembered where the death traps were, there was no way to die unless you deliberately ran into them. Nothing else really very threatening. So I guess it's accessible in that way, because anyone can clear it with enough negative reinforcement.

In contrast, the challenge in IV feels more organic, and I much prefer the set pieces and expansive levels there where you get a completely different experience depending on whether you're near the top or the bottom. That being said I haven't put as much time in it yet as I did with TF AC. But on paper and with my little experience with it, it's an improvement.

One thing TF AC definitely has going for it over TF IV is non-broken scoring. Such a shame they never removed the milking on Strite stage (one of the most gorgeous levels in gaming, IMO) even on the Saturn re-release.

Speaking of Saturn re-releases, fans of either game would be well served with Hyper Duel. Fantastic game from the few credits I played. Probably the best of the Technosoft bunch as far as just game play is concerned.
 
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Nutmeg

Arcane
Vatnik Wumao
Joined
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Messages
23,251
Location
Mahou Kingdom
Barely any room to breath and the regular screen slowdown is often welcome.
Fun fact, when I first played, I overclocked the SFC CPU via emulation so there was no slow down at all. I got completely raped and couldn't make it past the third stage.

But you're also given a shield to help out here, and said shield can be used in several different way as a weapon (launched at the enemy, spread round as a mini smart "bomb", or just used to smash into things). It's surprising just how much extra depth & fun this adds, but it really does. You're forever weighing up the pros & cons of turning your shield on/off to reserve it's charge, and it makes for some very tense moments.
Hell yeah. So satisfying to bash aliens in the face with it. And so tense just hovering near them with the shield glued to the ship letting it do the work hoping the alien's HP goes down faster than the shield charge.

Stages 4 and 5 are some of the most brilliantly designed Hori stages I've played so far. I loved having to use the shield as a downwards bomb to take out those alien spawn points while focusing on the big guys with my main shot on Stage 4.
 
Joined
Aug 10, 2012
Messages
5,903
Speaking of SNES slowdown, there's now a Gradius 3 romhack based on the SH-1 chip by a Brazilian dude that removes most of the slowdown. The same guy also applied the same method to Super R-Type and Contra :
https://github.com/VitorVilela7/SA1-Root

Gradius 3 without slowdown is brutally hard, comparable to the arcade version. I love me some Gradius - will post about Gradius V in the future, which is among my favourite 5 shmups of all time.

 
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Joined
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Messages
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Man I love those little trees. Really give a good sense of scale.
Yeah you mentioned you were playing Xexex the other day - remember the attract mode? The dimensions of the ship flash on the screen, the tail alone is like 25m long, haha
 

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