Skyrim - Bethesda, you should be very, very proud.

[halflingbarbarian]

Hell, there's hand placed loot at well. Found a troll and 2 dead stormcloaks while hiking. After the fight, found an order to clear a 'slight disturbance' on the stormcloak. Looks like the commander underestimated the threat and got killed. Also dived in as Argonian and searched a shipwreck with no worries. Fun. Except there's less valuables unlike Morrowind. I kinda wish they have a massive wreck site for me to explore. Would've been cool to find an underwater dungeon entrance like one in Morrowind.

Speaking of which, I also haven't chanced across any underwater dungeons. Quite a pity as I play an Argonian as well. Wonder if there are any at all in the game.

 

[attackfighter]

Quite a feat given that Morrowind has no scaling

No.

Examples or GTFO.

I don't mean levelled lists, I mean scaling.

You mean the way you were the only person in all of Vvardenfell who could levitate?

No, I mean the Vvardenfell was one of the few places that put third dimension into exploration.

Besides, IIRC, I've seen Itermerel cast levitation once during his escort quest, though I don't really know why.

Doesn't the mage guild boss levitate when you fight him? Trebonious something, is his name.

 

[Gord]

Examples or GTFO.

I don't mean levelled lists, I mean scaling.

It was all over the place, really. If you visited some regions at low levels you would encounter Kwama foragers or some weaker Deadra, if you came back at high levels they are replaced by Hungers, Winged Twilights, Golden Saints, etc.

Looks like level scaling to me.

I agree though that it wasn't very obvious most of the time. Also there seemed to be many parts that either didn't scale at all or had a very narrow list of creatures to choose from. Skyrim seems somewhere in between Morrowind and Oblivion to me.

Also isn't it funny how we feel forced to defend even the shitty part of some games?
Fuck, I don't even think Skyrim is the second coming or something like that, but there is so much bullshit spouted here, that I still feel i have to defend it.

 

[~*´¨¯¨`*·~-.¸-AIN'T]

Doesn't the mage guild boss levitate when you fight him? Trebonious something, is his name.

Uh...every time I've fought him he just stands there and casts a couple fireballs before dying incredibly easily.

 

[attackfighter]

Examples or GTFO.

I don't mean levelled lists, I mean scaling.

It was all over the place, really. If you visited some regions at low levels you would encounter Kwama foragers or some weaker Deadra, if you came back at high levels they are replaced by Hungers, Winged Twilights, Golden Saints, etc.

Looks like level scaling to me.

I agree though that it wasn't very obvious most of the time. Also there seemed to be many parts that either didn't scale at all or had a very narrow list of creatures to choose from. Skyrim seems somewhere in between Morrowind and Oblivion to me.

Also isn't it funny how we feel forced to defend even the shitty part of some games?
Fuck, I don't even think Skyrim is the second coming or something like that, but there is so much bullshit spouted here, that I still feel i have to defend it.

Those enemies aren't having their levels adjusted to yours though, so it's not level scaling. It's just some enemies having higher or lower likelyhoods of spawning based on your level. Similar but not the same.

Uh...every time I've fought him he just stands there and casts a couple fireballs before dying incredibly easily.

Oh, well I vaguely remembered having a fight with him where we both cast levitation and fought Dragonball Z style except slower and more boring.

 

[Neeshka]

I strongly disagree with skyrim fanboys like the OP. It's a decent game. I'd give it a 7/10.
It's not an RPG; it's more of a hiking simulator.

The graphics are in no way outstanding; most of the shittiness in the graphics is covered up by mist/fog. There are a few places that "look" nice; that doesn't mean that the graphics are great it just means that the artistic style worked well for the given engine in a few places.

Even witcher 2 and dragon age had very similar and often better graphics. Skyrim is at least 2-3 years behind graphically from the current gen.

Skyrim is very similar to oblivion; the only difference is the game world looks a lot better and characters aren't ugly down's syndrome patients like oblivion.

I think the music in skyrim is worse than oblivion; it's very repetitive and the same 2 tracks keep playing 90% of the time: generic background music 1 and generic combat music 2.

Combat is the weakest point in skyrim; it's definitely worse than oblivion.

1. Nudge close to enemy
2. Hit L/R mouse buttons
3. Nudge back
4. Open up Shitty UI, pause, spam click 10,0000 potatoes then 15 potions

HOW IS THIS GOOD COMBAT ?

Scaling in the game makes zero sense, to me at least. Most enemies die instantly in a few hits; and then suddenly there's the giants, wraiths and mammoths that require a billion potions and a billion tomatoes. Combat with them doesn't take extra "skill", it's just more shitty pausing and voracious vegetable consumption.

I'll probably get flamed for this but combat in every bioware game is better (haven't played DA2 yet which i heard is shit).

Dragon Age 1 had vastly superior combat to this steaming shitpile.

I'm not sure why bethesda made a combat oriented RPG where the combat itself sucks. Why not learn from ancient games in the genre like diablo 2 ?

 

[Gord]

Those enemies aren't having their levels adjusted to yours though, so it's not level scaling. It's just some enemies having higher or lower likelyhoods of spawning based on your level. Similar but not the same.

Level scaling in a game you like: It's not level scaling.

Level scaling in a game you don't like: It suuuuucks!!1!!1!

Dragon Age 1 had vastly superior combat to this steaming shitpile.

Dragon Age 1 combat is a completely different level. It's true rpg combat, even if some parts of it could have been done much better. But it's primarily character and stat driven - you simply define what is to be attacked and choose if you want to use a feat/spell, the rest is decided by your characters abilities.
Skyrim OTOH is almost completely player driven. Practically the only influence of your character is the amount of damage you do and the feats/spells available.
This is one of my main problems with 1st person in rpgs, by the way. You are always going to face the problem to communicate with the player why what happens on the screen is differnt from what he expected to happen.

Take Morrowind: It may have had a to-hit chance, but it failed to communicate efficiently with the player why it didn't work everytime if he tried to attack an enemy, even if it looked to him as if it should have worked.
Of course in our days the typical approach is to remove it instead of trying to fix it...

 

[abija]

"Even witcher 2"...
Really? That sounds like you consider witcher 2 sub standard graphics wise. Which gorgeous RPG have you secretly played lately? What's this "current gen" that Skyrim is 2-3 years behind?
Even expecting Skyrim to match TW2's insane level of detail is a bit silly considering the huge difference in world size.

 

[Neeshka]

well mmo's, moba games and diablo 2 clones generally do a decent job of real time action RPG combat with a hybrid of stat+dicerolls and player skill.

Some first person real time hack&slash/games with (imo) better combat:

Witcher 2
Dark Souls
Any prince of persia game
Prototype
Darksiders
Undying
Dark Messiah of might and magic
Mount & Blade
Bioshock 1/2
Vampire Masquerade.

Some of the above games aren't really RPGs, and some of them aren't really great games; but a common element is that they try to put in a lot of effort to refine the combat in particular.

This effort is completely missing in bethesda games.

 

[Neeshka]

"Even witcher 2"...
Really? That sounds like you consider witcher 2 sub standard graphics wise. Which gorgeous games have you secretly played lately?
Even expecting Skyrim to match TW2's insane level of detail is a bit silly considering the huge difference in world size.

No no; witcher 2 is one of my favorite recent games; and possibly in the top 10 of RPGs of the decade. The graphics are really good and optimized.

I guess Crysis 2 and Dead Island are gorgeous (to look at).

It is silly to expect TW2 level graphics in skyrim, of course. The point is that saying skyrim has amazing graphics is incorrect.

 

[villain of the story]

It's not an RPG

All that one needed to read from this newfag.

 

[attackfighter]

Those enemies aren't having their levels adjusted to yours though, so it's not level scaling. It's just some enemies having higher or lower likelyhoods of spawning based on your level. Similar but not the same.

Level scaling in a game you like: It's not level scaling.

Level scaling in a game you don't like: It suuuuucks!!1!!1!

Maybe you should learn the definitions of things before you talk about them.

 

[ChristofferC]

It's not an RPG

Yes it is.

1. Nudge close to enemy
2. Hit L/R mouse buttons
3. Nudge back
4. Open up Shitty UI, pause, spam click 10,0000 potatoes then 15 potions

HOW IS THIS GOOD COMBAT ?

1. You're doing it wrong.
2. Hotkeys.

Combat isn't great but it's not THAT bad.

 

[Achilles]

So now it's not enough for all you skyrim lovers to fill GRPG with skyrim threads. No, you have to drag VD into the discussion, distracting him from his work on AOD and denying us decent folk the chance to play an actual RPG before the end of time. Gah!

 

[Darth Roxor]

I admit I simply don't see the distinction DroQ and heartattackfighter are making between Morrowind and Skyrim.

It's pretty simple.

Skyrim = shit
Morrowind = not shit

M:

 

[attackfighter]

I admit I simply don't see the distinction DroQ and heartattackfighter are making between Morrowind and Skyrim.

In Skyrim you have bandits and some monsters which scale to your level. In Morrowind the only enemies to scale to your level come from the expansion packs (notably werewolves and goblins). So SKyrim has lots of level scaling, where as Morrowind only has a bit.

 

[Sul]

Those enemies aren't having their levels adjusted to yours though, so it's not level scaling. It's just some enemies having higher or lower likelyhoods of spawning based on your level. Similar but not the same.

Level scaling in a game you like: It's not level scaling.

Level scaling in a game you don't like: It suuuuucks!!1!!1!

Maybe you should learn the definitions of things before you talk about them.

And what's the difference? Your enemy is scaled to your level, be the type of opponent or his level.

bandit carrying steel sword instead of iron sword after certain level = level scaling! game is utter shit shit shit
from scamp to winged twilight guarding the door of a deadra temple after certain level = hurr durr not level scaling

 

[DraQ]

Attacks directions have different modifiers in Daggerfall.

Which can be pretty derpy - "LOLOLO I STAB U WITH A HMRR FOR MOAR ACCURACY!!!1".

The base idea is sound, but the execution is horrible.
You might just as well tweak min and max damage on some MW weapons so that one attack type works better with quick jabs or slashes (high min, low max), and another with power strikes (high max, low min).

Also, there's no dual wielding. You can "dual-equip" but attack with only either at any given time.

Would you rather have "I have 2 swords, I swing 2x as much" retard option?

2 weapons in DF give you more flexibility and that's it. IRL you also don't swing twice as much when you have a weapon in your offhand.

Sure, it'd be nice if you could parry with one and strike with the other and if weapons had max and min ranges so you could, for example lock your sword with enemy's, step closer and stab the shit out of him with a dagger, but combat in Daggerfall was very rudimentary - at least in Morrowind you could block, stagger people and so on.

Anyway, MW's combat was a poor evolution of DF's

And DF's combat was poor to begin with, once you got over the initial novelty of "I SWING MAH MOUSE!!!1".

Examples or GTFO.

I don't mean levelled lists, I mean scaling.

I CANNOT INTO DEFINITIONS HURR DURR

Obviously.

I agree though that it wasn't very obvious most of the time. Also there seemed to be many parts that either didn't scale at all or had a very narrow list of creatures to choose from. Skyrim seems somewhere in between Morrowind and Oblivion to me.

There were hand placed enemies and loot in addition to levelled lists. Most lists were also limited, not stretching from dried turd dagger and moldy bread to daedric battleaxe of doom and diamonds. Certain types of enemies were inherently high or low level, even when levelled lists were used - for example daedra WILL fuck you up if you're on low level and without at least silver/enchanted weapon, doesn't matter if they are lowly scamps or dremora. OTOH even blighted cliffracers are just cliffracers.
Besides, the succession of stuff in the lists was probabilistic, not deterministic, so you didn't see rats replaced by blighted kagouti all over the island.
Finally, the NPCs are static and have static gear.

I'm not saying that levelled lists aren't shit, because they are, but smartly used levelled lists are not even close to full retard level scaling.

I kinda wish they have a massive wreck site for me to explore. Would've been cool to find an underwater dungeon entrance like one in Morrowind.

That would be awesome kind of location and pseudo-dungeon.

first person

Witcher 2

FAIL.

Combat is the weakest point in skyrim; it's definitely worse than oblivion.

I have serious trouble imagining combat that is worse than oblivion.
I'm not sure even arcanum qualifies.
Probably not as it had criticals, locational damage and stamina damage.

Scaling in the game makes zero sense, to me at least. Most enemies die instantly in a few hits; and then suddenly there's the giants, wraiths and mammoths that require a billion potions and a billion tomatoes.

That's already better than oblivion where most enemies required good several minutes of whacking to put down. It felt like trying to whack a sluggish and not to bright zombie into submission with a foam bat.

 

[hoopy]

I wish Skyrim had cool stuff like kicks, disarms, and dodging, and so on. But no, you just mostly tap the mouse button until the other guy falls down. Yawn.

 

[Nael]

first person

Witcher 2

FAIL.

What? Because Witcher 2 is OTS? LOL. You control The Witcher with WSAD. It's a first person ghost-on-the-hero's-shoulder game.

 

[Gord]

Obviously.

Keep on pretending, pal...

Btw., don't believe everything you read about the game here. There's a lot of derp, no question, but then again, that's a given for Bethesda games.
Whether you call them "leveled list" or "enemies that scale to your level" the differences between Skyrim and Morrowind are not that big. If enemies get stronger, then as far as i can tell because they are replaced by stronger variants, with a different name (and not all of them either), not because suddenly a "Bandit" will wear full glass armor and do 20x the damage.
If that is not level scaling by your obviously much narrower definition, fine, call it what you will.

A lot of creatures, esp. some strong ones are always there: Giants, Mammoths, some Ice trolls, etc.
I think so far we anyway have not enough information to fully understand the way Skyrim applies leveling - some regions may be fixed, others not, some may depend on your level when you visit them the first time.
I would prefer a well done fixed distribution of enemies, too, but Skyrim at least is far from the stupid Oblivion implementation.

 

[Gord]

Edit: Double post

 

[Turjan]

I have no idea how Skyrim handles leveled lists. In Morrowind, they were there, but rather limited. You had some beginner's protection on the overland map up to level or 6 or 7, where mostly weak creatures spawned (except hand-placed encounters, of course). In dungeons, it was mixed, but most had hand-placed enemies that were not leveled, plus one or two leveled creatures. I guess the leveled lists were most obvious in throwaway dungeons like most crypts in the beginners' area in the SW.

Leveled lists could still spawn rats if you were high level, though.

 

[DraQ]

first person

Witcher 2

FAIL.

What? Because Witcher 2 is OTS? LOL. You control The Witcher with WSAD. It's a first person ghost-on-the-hero's-shoulder game.

Any iso game is then a first person god's eye game.

Problem?


Also scaling is when enemy either has stats and equipment explicitly scaled or is replaced by a stronger version of self (same with loot).

Levelling is when different levels introduce new monsters or items to randomized lists.

Vast majority of MWs levelling was done by adding option to list of possible stuff and not removing existing ones. Additionally it was mixed with a lot of static stuff, so when you, for example, went ot the tomb of Mordrin Hanin at level one, you found dremora and golden saint there and you got murdered hideously.
Also, all NPCs were static, same with their equipment.

Expansion added some scaled shit, but you usually played them with your endgame character so it didn't seem that severe.

 

[Nael]

first person

Witcher 2

FAIL.

What? Because Witcher 2 is OTS? LOL. You control The Witcher with WSAD. It's a first person ghost-on-the-hero's-shoulder game.

Any iso game is then a first person god's eye game.

Problem?

What part of WSAD do you not understand?

Kwestia?