So, Arx Fatalis...

[Baron Dupek]

Yet Arx - End of the Sun's development is still ongoing but it might stuck in this state forever.

I recently replayed Arx Fatalis with minimod that add more crafting recipes (from chicken sandwich to enhanced chain mail). Make it even more unbalanced but that was fun with no question (didn't reached final boss though).

toro
End of the Sun was canceled, their progress slowed down to a crawl when they released demo and then - it's over.

 

[V_K]

If there's something to complain about, it's that they didn't go far enough since a compositional system is perfect for creating an infinite set of expressions while they still stuck with a finite number of spells. Until somebody takes that final step, Arx Fatalis has one of the best magic systems around.

Trazere duology did that 10 years before Arx.
Although the number of effects in those games was somewhat more limited.

 

[Gnidrologist]

More importantly, what you consider a bleh mechanic meant that it was important to plan ahead, and that certain boss fights where you needed more than your three pre-buffered spells could get really intense. In addition, it wasn't just a random mapping of runes to spells, there was a compositional system in place and if you studied that you could discover spells on your own. That beats the standard boring-ass "find spells and pick them from a list" mechanic hands-down even if the implementation is sometimes finicky.

I agree and it wold be playable if it was turn based game, but in real time the chance of fucking up the correct mouse gesture when those killer knights rush at you means instant death. On the other hand throwing ''pre-recorded'' spells at them meant instant win, while melee combat in the late game was real pain in the ass. I guess it was intentional to sort of balance the uberpower of magic, by making it inconvenient to use. Not the best design solution. It's like putting some ridiculous platform jumping to make it more challenging. So yeah, good idea, especially the combo discoveries, but bad execution, when it comes to action.

 

[Ash]

I agree and it wold be playable if it was turn based game, but in real time the chance of fucking up the correct mouse gesture when those killer knights rush at you means instant death. On the other hand throwing ''pre-recorded'' spells at them meant instant win, while melee combat in the late game was real pain in the ass. I guess it was intentional to sort of balance the uberpower of magic, by making it inconvenient to use. Not the best design solution. It's like putting some ridiculous platform jumping to make it more challenging. So yeah, good idea, especially the combo discoveries, but bad execution, when it comes to action.

You...Once a declinefag always a declinefag I guess.

The casting system in Arx is pure incline. Indeed if magic must be so powerful (as it is in 95% of RPGs) then there should be drawbacks and limitations. You can also kill Ylsides without magic. It's called having a melee build. Stealth works well also, as does bow headshots. The only immediate issue I have with Arx's magic is harm & fireball spam.

 

[Gnidrologist]

It is incline, as i admitted, but mouse gestures aren't part of them. It's a tedious gimmick. Having a cooldown system, that prevents spamming fireballs and instead forces to use combo of various spells/skills, as simplistic as it may be, is still better than simulating Wii controller with your mouse.

In before second crusade: The Infallible Arx.

 

[Serus]

I agree and it wold be playable if it was turn based game, but in real time the chance of fucking up the correct mouse gesture when those killer knights rush at you means instant death. On the other hand throwing ''pre-recorded'' spells at them meant instant win, while melee combat in the late game was real pain in the ass. I guess it was intentional to sort of balance the uberpower of magic, by making it inconvenient to use. Not the best design solution. It's like putting some ridiculous platform jumping to make it more challenging. So yeah, good idea, especially the combo discoveries, but bad execution, when it comes to action.

You...Once a declinefag always a declinefag I guess.

The casting system in Arx is pure incline. Indeed if magic must be so powerful (as it is in 95% of RPGs) then there should be drawbacks and limitations. You can also kill Ylsides without magic. It's called having a melee build. Stealth works well also, as does bow headshots. The only immediate issue I have with Arx's magic is harm & fireball spam.

You have to be kidding... There should be drawbacks and limitations of curse but not like that... this is the lowest point of otherwise good (or great) game and obviously just a gimmick - possibly an attempt to sell the game better but from the pov of design it is bad. Or perhaps just not very well executed.

 

[Ash]

Why is it bad? Why is it a gimmick? This actually has us casting spells. The casting part is omitted in other games. The skill ceiling is high, as you have to memorize the runes AND draw them out with precision. You just don't have what it takes to be a great wizard.

Alright, more serious now: I like it. While traditional casting methods may make for faster paced, more convenient gameplay, this method makes you work for such power. It makes you feel like a mage. It's immersive. It's unique. It engages the player on a higher level. It adds a realistic barrier to wielding such power. While the execution may not have been optimal it is by no means a gimmick nor inherently bad design.
And Arx clearly wasn't a game where any design decisions were heavily influence by sales figures. No compromise, which is why there are naysayers in the first place I guess.

 

[V_K]

you have to memorize the rune

Or you could just click on the spell in spellbook and have the combination conveniently appear at the upper right corner...

 

[Ash]

Forgot that. Requires referring to the book each time though. Ideally you become master wizard eventually and have most combinations memorized. If only Arx was a longer game...

 

[Prime Junta]

Arx was brilliant and frustratingly bad at the same time. I loved it, but will almost certainly never play it again. Just can't put up with the bugs and associated frustrations. Fantastic magic system, beautifully-realised world, awesome sense of discovery and progression, and repeated, frequent kicks in the nuts (but not in a good way).

 

[Serus]

Why is it bad? Why is it a gimmick? This actually has us casting spells. The casting part is omitted in other games. The skill ceiling is high, as you have to memorize the runes AND draw them out with precision. You just don't have what it takes to be a great wizard.

Alright, more serious now: I like it. While traditional casting methods may make for faster paced, more convenient gameplay, this method makes you work for such power. It makes you feel like a mage. It's immersive. It's unique. It engages the player on a higher level. It adds a realistic barrier to wielding such power. While the execution may not have been optimal it is by no means a gimmick nor inherently bad design.
And Arx clearly wasn't a game where any design decisions were heavily influence by sales figures. No compromise, which is why there are naysayers in the first place I guess.

Why it is bad - the same way jumping puzzles in dungeon cralwers are bad. This is not a mario game for god's sake. This gimmick relies solely on the precision of the mouse movements instead of being a mix of player skill and your stats (or so i remember it in Arx... maybe im wrong ?) . I could think of an alternative system where you get more slots to "stash"/pre-cast spells as you "learn magic" and your stats go up = you get better in magic and you rely less on casting spells at the last moment. That would make sense to me. Say start with 1 or 2 and get to a half dozen eventually. Give me something, just not a pure action/precision/reflex mechanic.
You say it helps in immersion and thats ok but this is very subjective. I think the exact opposite. This was the part of the game that annoyed me and if anything destroyed the immersion for me. So i am supposed to cast magic by... moving my mouse to draw precisely some arbitrary patterns ? Sorry but i prefer that casting magic remains 100% abstracted in crpgs if this is the best alternative anyone came to to replace abstraction. Matter of perspective i guess but from my point of view the way casting was implemented it was an useless gimmick. Worse than useless, useless implies = "neutral", this one actively annoys players... and i know i'm not the only one who was annoyed by it.
Also i laughed at using the word "realistic" seriously in this context. i mean i understand what you are trying to say but it was a bit funny anyway...
Good game otherwise, i don't like this sub-gen re much but Arx i almost liked, enjoyed it until the magic system (the gimmick part of it) annoyed me enough to stop playing. Well, maybe i just don't "get it", maybe first person, single character, real time crawlers are really not my cup of tea but Arx was really close... <sad> Otoh I like first person party based crawlers (blobbers), some of them at least.

 

[Ash]

Why it is bad - the same way jumping puzzles in dungeon cralwers are bad. This is not a mario game for god's sake.

That's your perspective. Mine is they belong. Do dungeons not have any vertical Z space? Last I looked real life dungeon crawling (caving) requires lots of platforming and scaling walls. Platforming is fun.

This gimmick relies solely on the precision of the mouse movements instead of being a mix of player skill and your stats (or so i remember it in Arx... maybe im wrong ?)

As does the game's many puzzles rely solely on player skill as opposed to stats.

Games like Ultima Underworld and Arx Fatalis crossed boundaries. It's what makes them great. Traditionally dungeon crawlers are grid-based movement blobbers. These on the other hand are a whole other ball game, a far more complex one.

. I could think of an alternative system where you get more slots to "stash"/pre-cast spells as you "learn magic" and your stats go up = you get better in magic and you rely less on casting spells at the last moment. That would make sense to me. Say start with 1 or 2 and get to a half dozen eventually. Give me something, just not a pure action/precision/reflex mechanic.

3 pre-casted spells is a reasonable number, and is "something". It was intentional that you had to cast in battle and couldn't stock a dozen pre-made spells.
The game is in-part inherently real-time/action/reflex. The game doesn't even pause when you access the inventory for example, so in combat accessing the inventory to grab what you need without getting killed is solely a matter of player skill. It's pretty obvious you are another that dislikes action games. That's fine, but your tastes doesn't make these aspects of the game bad.

You say it helps in immersion and thats ok but this is very subjective. I think the exact opposite. This was the part of the game that annoyed me and if anything destroyed the immersion for me.

That's always a possibility, yes. Immersion is intrinsically tied to the player's level on enjoyment in games. It was designed to be immersive though and for me it works.

Also i laughed at using the word "realistic" seriously in this context. i mean i understand what you are trying to say but it was a bit funny anyway...

Fantasy blended with pedantically-realistic rules is what Arx is.

Good game otherwise, i don't like this sub-gen re much but Arx i almost liked, enjoyed it until the magic system (the gimmick part of it) annoyed me enough to stop playing. Well, maybe i just don't "get it", maybe first person, single character, real time crawlers are really not my cup of tea but Arx was really close... <sad> Otoh I like first person party based crawlers (blobbers), some of them at least.

gimmick
ˈɡɪmɪk/
noun

1. a trick or device intended to attract attention, publicity, or trade.

Whilst it is a standout, marketable feature in Arx it actually turns a lot of people away. Old guard RPG dinosaurs such as yourself that don't believe RPGs should aspire to be more complex than they are

 

[Invictus]

This Magic systems put most others to shame and make them feel like you are a wizard by having to work at it, memorizing the rune and casting it correctly while some gobbler is trying to bash your head makes you feel like a real wizard and not a popamole "equip lightning" Skyrim fag
They even added the option of preloading spells for the more complicated ones
It is funny and certainly fitting that this magic system made me feel like the good old days of Ultima where I had memorized some of the runes for translation, other than Black and White this was the first game that really made me feel like a wizard

 

[PorkyThePaladin]

I know this place has a strong autist base, but are all you people really complaining about how hard the rune drawing system is in Arx? It's just drawing out basic geometric shapes, like lines, circles, angles, and you don't even have to get it exact, just close enough for the game to recognize it. If this is so hard for people to do, then no wonder so many here cannot into non-turn-based combat.

In addition, it wasn't just a random mapping of runes to spells, there was a compositional system in place and if you studied that you could discover spells on your own. That beats the standard boring-ass "find spells and pick them from a list" mechanic hands-down even if the implementation is sometimes finicky.

Yeah, I probably wasn't clear enough in the original post when I talked about the logical nature of the spell system, but that's exactly what I meant. After you get a few runes, you realize that they each add some basic effect that can be combined with others logically to produce a compound result. So for example, there are "Yes" and "No" runes and a "Light" rune, by spelling out yes light, you light everything up nearby, and by spelling out no light, you douse things out. This system is really cool and very different from other games.

 

[Siobhan]

Trazere duology

Are you referring to this game? I'm embarassed to admit that this is the first time I hear of it, though some of the screenshots looks familiar.

But if I'm reading Wikipedia's description of the spell system correctly, there's only finitely many distinct spells that can be created this way since the runes aren't stackable in a meaningful way. If so, it wouldn't be a counterexample since I'm asking for a spell system where a finite number of primitives generates an infinite number of spells. Just like an attribute grammar has a finite specification but can generate an infinite number of programs.

 

[V_K]

But if I'm reading Wikipedia's description of the spell system correctly, there's only finitely many distinct spells that can be created this way since the runes aren't stackable in a meaningful way.

What do you mean by "stackable in a meaningful way"?
The number of spells in Trazere is potentially infinite because any combination of any number of runes would work - although a lot of them would work in nonsensical ways. It works kinda like TES spellmaker only with more flavour to it.

 

[Serus]

Why it is bad - the same way jumping puzzles in dungeon cralwers are bad. This is not a mario game for god's sake.

That's your perspective. Mine is they belong. Do dungeons not have any vertical Z space? Last I looked real life dungeon crawling (caving) requires lots of platforming and scaling walls. Platforming is fun.

This gimmick relies solely on the precision of the mouse movements instead of being a mix of player skill and your stats (or so i remember it in Arx... maybe im wrong ?)

As does the game's many puzzles rely solely on player skill as opposed to stats.

Games like Ultima Underworld and Arx Fatalis crossed boundaries. It's what makes them great. Traditionally dungeon crawlers are grid-based movement blobbers. These on the other hand are a whole other ball game, a far more complex one.

. I could think of an alternative system where you get more slots to "stash"/pre-cast spells as you "learn magic" and your stats go up = you get better in magic and you rely less on casting spells at the last moment. That would make sense to me. Say start with 1 or 2 and get to a half dozen eventually. Give me something, just not a pure action/precision/reflex mechanic.

3 pre-casted spells is a reasonable number, and is "something". It was intentional that you had to cast in battle and couldn't stock a dozen pre-made spells.
The game is in-part inherently real-time/action/reflex. The game doesn't even pause when you access the inventory for example, so in combat accessing the inventory to grab what you need without getting killed is solely a matter of player skill. It's pretty obvious you are another that dislikes action games. That's fine, but your tastes doesn't make these aspects of the game bad.

You say it helps in immersion and thats ok but this is very subjective. I think the exact opposite. This was the part of the game that annoyed me and if anything destroyed the immersion for me.

That's always a possibility, yes. Immersion is intrinsically tied to the player's level on enjoyment in games. It was designed to be immersive though and for me it works.

Also i laughed at using the word "realistic" seriously in this context. i mean i understand what you are trying to say but it was a bit funny anyway...

Fantasy blended with pedantically-realistic rules is what Arx is.

Good game otherwise, i don't like this sub-gen re much but Arx i almost liked, enjoyed it until the magic system (the gimmick part of it) annoyed me enough to stop playing. Well, maybe i just don't "get it", maybe first person, single character, real time crawlers are really not my cup of tea but Arx was really close... <sad> Otoh I like first person party based crawlers (blobbers), some of them at least.

gimmick
ˈɡɪmɪk/
noun

1. a trick or device intended to attract attention, publicity, or trade.

Whilst it is a standout, marketable feature in Arx it actually turns a lot of people away. Old guard RPG dinosaurs such as yourself that don't believe RPGs should aspire to be more complex than they are

Well, here is the difference then. If you think purely reflex/action elements like jumping - without any influence from character stats have place in rpg games then we are in disagreement. And that's ok. Platforming can be fun, no disagreement here - but in a platformer game imo.

You give an argument that puzzles are also not stats-driven. And this one is actually a valid argument. In most parts they arent. Two things come to mind here. First, that was usually the case even in crpg without action-ey elements - intellectual challenges were usually player skill-based only. A traiditon if you wish. Personally i don't think a good one. I do believe that those puzzles that are directy tied to game mechanics, the ones that use stats in some way are actually better than the purely logical ones that don't. Again a matter of perspective and expectations i guess. Part of crpg identity is that it is a "stats-driven game". And no i don't want to start another retarded argument on definition. For me it just is and it is one of the most important part of what makes a crpg a crpg. Even one with action(ey) elements. Once again, probably a difference in perspective but this is ok. We can't all like the same things.

What i dont understant and don't think is ok with your answer is that you claim that Arx Fatalis or Ultima Underworld genre is inherently more complex (you even suggest - better i believe) than grid-based blobber dungeon crawlers. There are some seriously complex blobbers out there you know. And i can imagine a bad first person/real time crawler. In fact i believe there are some of those in existence but i'm not a specialist on the subgenre. It is just that Arx and UU games are the best in their subgenre (and in what it tries to do), you can only compare them to the best of best of blobbers to be fair.
Also you say that their quality comes from crossing some boundaries, is what makes them great. Again i don't see it. What boundaries. If you mean between action games and crpg - many games tried to do it, some with poor results (later Bethesda ehmm... works), some with better (say maybe DS series or Gothics) but again there is nothing that makes games that blend genres inherently better or worse than "pure" non-hybrid ones. You just personally like those blends - thats all there is to it and you made no argumenrt to back your claims - because there isn't one to make a part from "mixing genres is good". Doesn't cut it, sorry.

3 pre-casted spells is a reasonable number, and is "something". It was intentional that you had to cast in battle and couldn't stock a dozen pre-made spells.
The game is in-part inherently real-time/action/reflex. The game doesn't even pause when you access the inventory for example, so in combat accessing the inventory to grab what you need without getting killed is solely a matter of player skill. It's pretty obvious you are another that dislikes action games. That's fine, but your tastes doesn't make these aspects of the game bad

I haven't said "a dozen" and and i said only if you concentrated purely on the magic side of things (thus only for pure magic "build") and at that not from the beginning. This is besides the point, implementation is not as important, the principle is. Also, you do see that 3 is just an arbitrary number - completely cut off from the rest of the character system (stats) - yes, i do believe it isn't an optimum design in a crpg.
No i don't dislike action games per se. Pure action games can be cool. I used to play them in the past. In the last few years not so much but i still ocasionally do and can enjoy them.
I don't even dislike all action crpgs. I already wrote which ones i think did a good blend of crpg and actioney elements in my opinion (i still havent' played Gothics much but from little i played their approach to action/rpg blend is sound imo. As is DS1).
My taste is just my tase of curse. However, adding pure action/reflex elements completely detached from the stats system in a crpg game (even an "action" one) does make it... a questionable design imho. That doesn't mean the game as a whole is bad. Again it is a matter of perspective but i think that if you are to blend 2 genres/systems you should do it in a more organic level. Not just make aribtrary parts of game purely action/reflex based.

Well i might be talking rubbish and i admit possibly just my dislike of most (but not all) action/rpg hybrids clouded my judgement. Still i am positive that there are people here on Codex do play action-rpg and at the same time do hate things like jumping puzzles. So im not completely alone in this.

Anyway, enjoy your Arx. it IS a fantastic game on many levels. Level design, atmosphere, hell even graphics if you ask me are all great. Is the gameplay ? Well as i said... i'd love to like it more to be able to enjoy the other parts.


Edit: i don't need a definition of gimmick, thank you. We are not in disagreement on the definition of the word. Can using mouse movements to "cast" spells be called a gimmick or not is the question. I maintain my opinion that it feels like one. It is possible that it wasn't deigned as such but it still feels to me as a gimmick. Let's say there is a subjective gimmicky quality to it.
This is part where we should just agree to disagree - don't you agree ?

And again what is that with you and "complexity" and trying to - not sure what are you actually trying to achieve - calling someone a "dinosaur". Assuming i am one - how is this relevant to anything ? Or are you just trying to sound a tiny little bit asshole-ish ?
There is nothing complex or innovative in merging action and crpg, it was made years before Arx Fatalis came out. Hell even before UU1 came out. There is nothing innovative per se in merging two genres at all - the results can sometimes be innovative but there isn't any guarantee. There isn't any intrinsic value (or complexity - LOL) in itself in merging of two genres. If it were then i we would be drowned today with dozens of great and innovative: action-cyoa, hentai-managers and pixel hunting based 4X games...

 

[Ash]

Yes, I'm aware that there are complex blobbers but the inherent nature of the design is less complex...and very two dimensional. Some blobber systems have definitely succeeded the likes found in Arx in complexity on an individual basis, but taken as a whole...at the very least it can be agreed that free-form movement, looking, and interactivity has the potential to be greater in complexity than blobbers, which are more restrictive by design.

adding pure action/reflex elements completely detached from the stats system in a crpg game (even an "action" one) does make it... a questionable design imho

It makes it a hybrid. Definitely not totally traditional, but I have a massive boner for the direction these games were heading. Anyhow, the skill-based elements are usually tied to the stats in some form: to cast higher tier magic in Arx you first needed to meet the casting requirement (and needed the runes of course). Platforming in Underworld was tied to the acrobatics skill, and so on.

This is part where we should just agree to disagree - don't you agree ?

Absolutely.

 

[SCO]

Leave arx spellcasting alone. I finished it twice before i knew you could memorize 3 spells in quickslots.

 

[Serus]

It certainly can be done. Same as there are people who finished DS1 (or so i heard) never knowing that there is "lock on enemy" button. ;D
But if one of our resident blobber fans see what Ash is saying about blobbers he will get eaten alive. I hope. :D

 

[Ash]

Eaten alive by post-historic old guard dinos :D

Blobbers provide a different style of gameplay that remains relevent today, but they are restrictive by design in some major ways. That's not debatable.

 

[Serus]

Each genre of games is restricted in some major ways - it is what makes them distinctive as genres from each other. If you really believe that first person/single character/real time/dungeon crawlers are somehow inherently superior to other subgenres of crpg (for example first person/party-based/turn-based or not aka "blobber") and that is not just your subjective bias then you are - simply put - delusional.
But i'm starting to suspect you might be just trolling me. If so then not bad as a troll attempt. 3.5/5 trolls easily.

 

[Ash]

Well, some (very few) blobbers don't even have grid movement anyway, so I guess so. Still haven't encountered a blobber with high levels of world interactivity (like picking up and throwing objects around in any direction) nor z axis gameplay though, and you don't control your party like you control your singular unit here, you merely issue them commands in a simplified manner. That's what is inherent to blobbers specifically. Grid-based movement was a traditional thing that while still common is not used in them all. We kinda skipped onto exclusively discussing blobbers when it was traditional dungeon crawlers (with grid movement in particular) more what I had in mind, even though the distinction is near negligible as most blobbers feature grid movement.

 

[Siobhan]

But if I'm reading Wikipedia's description of the spell system correctly, there's only finitely many distinct spells that can be created this way since the runes aren't stackable in a meaningful way.

What do you mean by "stackable in a meaningful way"?
The number of spells in Trazere is potentially infinite because any combination of any number of runes would work - although a lot of them would work in nonsensical ways. It works kinda like TES spellmaker only with more flavour to it.

The question is one of syntax VS semantics. If n instances of the forward rune have the same effect as a single instance, then you may have multiple distinct forms (syntax), but still only one actual spell being produced (semantics). The Wikipedia description reads like including multiple occurrences of the same rune would not affect the spell, so the number of spells would still be finite, even though there's infinitely many spell forms. The TES spellmaker actually describes a finite set, too, because as far as I remember there is an upper bound on integer-valued parameters such as damage per second and duration.

 

[Ash]

You're a massive programming/mathematics nerd :D