So, FF, uh, twelve?

[DarkSign]

Where's that damn 3-axis video-game-genre chart when you need it?

 

[Sarvis]

Ahhhh so now its "generally accepted"...care to link the thread where that occurred? It was waaay too much trouble to do it before (so that it could be scrutinized) but suddenly you did it and I just didnt see? Riiight.

As far as continuing on the same line of thought, when you just called someone on their analysis of genre features when you havent established much credibility in that tack previously, the subject is bound to come back up. Translation for dumbfuck: Your track record counts.

Link me to where the RPG discussion went down and I'll take a look. If you cant be bothered to link it (which Im 87% you'll say) then realize you havent proven jack shit and Ill continue to call you on your repeated bullshit.

Another day on the Codex, another day with Sarvis backtracking.

Oh my god. Here: http://www.rpgcodex.com/phpBB/viewtopic ... sc&start=0

That is the thread where I posted my old links to the definitions I linked to. Just like I said. It's funny that you missed it, since you were taking part in that thread.

Maybe you're the one who's dishonest.

<b>Section8</b>

Ok, you got me there. Those are fairly minor parts of FF7 though, and when I was playing the game they felt more like minigames than anything else. Certainly not the focus of the gameplay.

I also wouldn't say that Adventure games usually have strong plot. Not that I'm a huge fan of the genre, but games like King's Quest certainly never had much plot.



<b>frronalds</b>

They've made movies out of lots of video games. What is your point? They made a movie even out of a game that has little or no story whatsoever: DOOM. This just shows that games are getting ever more popular, so it is becoming profitable to make movies using the themes from a game.

To me this is interesting, because it shows how nonsensical it is to try to define a games genre based on any kind of plot element. The plot is what exists outside of the game, and can be translated not only into different genres but even different MEDIA.

Does the linear plot of Good Will Hunting make it an Adventure game?


<b>obediah</b>

Well said, though I don't entirely agree that games cannot be classified. As I've said before I think if you take games down to the most basic elements and create very, very lightweight genre definitions we'd have some clarity. Looking at the earliest games of a genre basically, and saying all games which share elements of that game are part of the genre. FF, Fallout, Arcanum and ToEE, plus even Diablo are basically the same as the first RPGs. They have all certainly added things, like Fallout and it's non-linear plot, Arcanum's character flexibility and ToEEs opening vignettes and tactical combat or even Diablo's treasure hunting and "real time" combat. (Real time in quotes because it's not a real reflex-fest.)

Because they come from that same common base they are all RPGs.

You are absolutely right though that it's silly to change a genre definition every time some new innovation *coughnonlinearcough* comes along.

 

[kingcomrade]

God, people on this forum spend so much time trying to either come up with definitions for categories, or put games into categories. Reality is, you can twist semantics whichever way you like.

By the way. Doom 3 did kinda have a story. Quake 4, which I'm playing now. It could be an awesome movie. Quake 4 is everything Doom 3 should've been.

 

[Sarvis]

God, people on this forum spend so much time trying to either come up with definitions for categories, or put games into categories. Reality is, you can twist semantics whichever way you like.

By the way. Doom 3 did kinda have a story. Quake 4, which I'm playing now. It could be an awesome movie. Quake 4 is everything Doom 3 should've been.

Most games "kinda" have a story. It's just a matter of whether there is any depth to it. I never played DOOM3, but the story for DOOM was just "You're a space marine, you found a portal to hell. Kill everything before it kills you."

 

[Jinxed]

Shenmue series was a fighting games but the "action" sequences (that area in 2) were not as anoying as what I experienced in that piece of crap called "Fahrenheit" that simply replaced the "hunting the pixel" with something FAR WORST (action sequences), not to say the control interface and save system managed to beat the crap out of Shenmue 2 in terms of sheer idiocy.

Shenmue 2 had issues but at least it managed to keep me playing without screaming profanities for far longer that Fahrenheit (several hours vs 15 minutes) so Shenmue 2 wins on my book for being less retarded ... of course I cannot think off hand anything more anoying and frustating that playing Fahrenheit.

I had absolutely no issues with the game. Not once did it crash, hang or did I have interface problems. I had so much fun with the game I'm not gonna go into it. Lets just say, it was a long time since I had so much fun with a videogame.

 

[Chefe]

By the way. Doom 3 did kinda have a story.

It might have, but still...

Super Mario Bros. 3 story > Doom 3 story

 

[Magnus_1]

God, people on this forum spend so much time trying to either come up with definitions for categories, or put games into categories. Reality is, you can twist semantics whichever way you like.

By the way. Doom 3 did kinda have a story. Quake 4, which I'm playing now. It could be an awesome movie. Quake 4 is everything Doom 3 should've been.

Categories are good. I enjoy games like FF and Fable, but I don't think of them as RPGs. They just aren't. The problem is that people say things: "OMFG FF and FAble are teh shittiest RPGs everz!!11!!1!!!1!" kingcomrade was right. Games like that are "interactive cinematics." Not RPGs. Not adventure games.

And the story for the Doom games isn't really that bad. It's actually fairly accurate. For a soldier in real life, their goal is to kill their enemies and come home in one piece. They don't give a shit about what else happens, they just want to get the job done. So to say the story in Doom 3 is crap or to compare it to that of an RPG is pointless. It's comparing apples to oranges.

And FF 12 is going to suck a hyena's filthy dick. I think the guys making those games must be pedophiles or something. There seems to be a rash of pretty blonde boys showing up in Japanese games. Even the "tough" characters are metro.

 

[Pegultagol]

FF12 is certainly chock full of those subtle Japanese touches that will certainly confound me. I don't dig preset character, especially if that character looks like a male whose sex change protocol would call for only a wig and boobjob.

 

[Section8]

Ok, you got me there. Those are fairly minor parts of FF7 though, and when I was playing the game they felt more like minigames than anything else. Certainly not the focus of the gameplay.

Fair enough, and to each their own. Aside from the occasional interesting boss fight, the combat was most visual flair without much gameplay content, and so I derived my enjoyment from the game's other facets. So focus of gameplay for me, and also the reason I've never replayed the game to any extent.

I also wouldn't say that Adventure games usually have strong plot. Not that I'm a huge fan of the genre, but games like King's Quest certainly never had much plot.

Agreed, but I was never all that enthralled by the King's Quest games. The adventure games I hold in high esteem are the Lucasarts adventures of the nineties, like Sam and Max Hit the Road. I guess "plot" is probably not quite as broad a term as I should have used. "Strong writing" would be more appropriate, perhaps. Or maybe just "strong narrative elements."

FF12 is certainly chock full of those subtle Japanese touches that will certainly confound me. I don't dig preset character, especially if that character looks like a male whose sex change protocol would call for only a wig and boobjob.

Who needs a wig? You can just be one of those wacky Japanese girls with dyed blonde spiky hair. But yes, implants would be essential to fit into the mountainous terrain of anime bustlines.

And the story for the Doom games isn't really that bad. It's actually fairly accurate. For a soldier in real life, their goal is to kill their enemies and come home in one piece. They don't give a shit about what else happens, they just want to get the job done. So to say the story in Doom 3 is crap or to compare it to that of an RPG is pointless. It's comparing apples to oranges.

I'd say that Doom's lack of story was one of it's strengths. As soon as you try and justify everything or force a bunch of basically unrelated narrative on the player, you're disrupting the action, and suddenly making design decisions like "Hey, we can't have scary monsters just hiding behind a wall to jump out at the character, because that doesn't make sense from a "realistic" perspective. But fuck yes it makes sense from a gameplay perspective. I loved Doom's "as soon as I grab that keycard, I'm going to get proper fucked from all angles" moments.

I'd even go so far as to say that the movie could have benefitted from a lack of superficial plot. Just 90 minutes of unpaced, choreographed action scenes, without a single coherent word spoken. I don't see why that is any worse than the trend of filming action scenes and then putting some flimsy plot between them, like John Woo seems to do with his Hollywood efforts.

 

[Major_Blackhart]

What would Vagrant Story count as? I play it occassionally, and always thought of it as an adventure game. Enjoyable, and innovative with a relatively new plot idea. Anyone else think anything about the game?

 

[FrancoTAU]

Is there any console RPGs other than FFT that you guys would consider "real" RPGs?

 

[Sarvis]

Is there any console RPGs other than FFT that you guys would consider "real" RPGs?

They wouldn't consider FFT a "real" RPG.

It's an exclusive genre after all, with only 5 or 6 members. Nothing on a console is probably allowed to count.

<b>Major_Blackhart</b>

I'd say it was an RPG. Can you give compelling reasons to consider it an Adventure game? Were there puzzles, even to the degree found in FF7?

 

[Magnus_1]

Is there any console RPGs other than FFT that you guys would consider "real" RPGs?

They wouldn't consider FFT a "real" RPG.

It's an exclusive genre after all, with only 5 or 6 members. Nothing on a console is probably allowed to count.

I would consider FFT to be an RPG. It has a well developed plot, character customization that allows a certain degree of role-playing, and sure, it's linear, but I don't mind that.

 

[Sarvis]

Is there any console RPGs other than FFT that you guys would consider "real" RPGs?

They wouldn't consider FFT a "real" RPG.

It's an exclusive genre after all, with only 5 or 6 members. Nothing on a console is probably allowed to count.

I would consider FFT to be an RPG. It has a well developed plot, character customization that allows a certain degree of role-playing, and sure, it's linear, but I don't mind that.

You aren't "they."

 

[kingcomrade]

Hmm, FFT an RPG? I could see that. I always thought of it as a strategy game with some RPG mechanics.

 

[FrancoTAU]

I always seen it as more of a RPG with Strategic elements. I mean really, the combat system seemed more like Ultima style combat with fake 3D graphics(having and X, Y and Z movement).

Otherwise you have a small group of highly customizable guys(skills, armor, jobs). The preset characters you can ignore for the most part and the main character you can develop any way you see fit.

There was no exploration factor which is the only reason i could see somebody knocking it as not being an RPG.

Brigandine was pretty top notch too, but that was definately in the camp of a Strategic game with RPG elements.

 

[kingcomrade]

The thing that, in my opinion, makes it a Strategy game, is that there's not really anything BUT the battles. There's a world map, and a shop. It plays a lot more like a strategy game like Silent Storm than an RPG like Fallout.

 

[TheGreatGodPan]

I remember that thread, but I didn't remember Sarvis actually posting his definitions. Well, here's my two cents. I game is a role-playing game if you play a role. Not "I am the marine in Doom!" or "I'm Link in Zelda!" (which isn't an adventure game either). You have to define the role, make the character. It doesn't matter if it's a fantasy or sci-fi setting, it could be a western or detective game. There are stat-less RPGs in pen&paper (from which the concept of RPG springs), but thus far all CRPGs are heavily reliant on stats. Including stats doesn't make something an RPG. Having few stats/attributes/skills tends to make something an RPG-lite, which might not even be considered to be RPGs at all. It can have a linear story, but there must be enough freedom for you to make your own character rather than what the designers give you.

An adventure game is not "A game like King's Quest", an adventure game is a game like Adventure (aka Collosal Cave)! Having adventure elements and/or RPG elements does not necessarily make a game an RPG and/or adventure. These features should be the defining features of the game. A notable aspect of adventure games should be LACK of features in non-adventure games (action, in particular).

 

[shadowsin]

If only they would realise the importance of a world map in adding to the freedom and size of the game. Just travelling to the next town or city was great in ffix, my favourite game of all time, and made you feel like you were actually on a journey in comparison to ffx where the game was so much easier and straight forward. I agree with other posters in that I dont understand the characters anymore, what happened to fantasy like characters such as zidane with a tail and vivi the mystical mage race char.
The voiced dialogue contributes to making the game that much more linear, I would be satisfied with just a world map despite the combat and gameplay shortcomings (dumbing downs for the a.d.d generation).
Seems all rpgers get to do these days is watch cut scenes in high fidelity graphics rather than experience them in the way past games allowed.

 

[Diogo Ribeiro]

Random battles were always the most annoying part of JRPGS.

That wasn't much different from western CRPGs as both types tend to use random battles alot. However in Final Fantasy games any battle was significantly worsened by the use of spells or summons, which took from five seconds to 2 minutes to be pulled off - and they couldn't be skipped, you had to sit there and watch them for the millionth time. Considering many battles relied on using summons, it artificially inflated the game's lenght as well as it caused comatose slumber.

 

[Sarvis]

Random battles were always the most annoying part of JRPGS.

That wasn't much different from western CRPGs as both types tend to use random battles alot. However in Final Fantasy games any battle was significantly worsened by the use of spells or summons, which took from five seconds to 2 minutes to be pulled off - and they couldn't be skipped, you had to sit there and watch them for the millionth time. Considering many battles relied on using summons, it artificially inflated the game's lenght as well as it caused comatose slumber.

The only game where the summon animations took any real length of time and could not be skipped was FF8.

 

[Diogo Ribeiro]

I can't recall skipping being able to skip animations in, say, FF7 either, and the lenght of those wasn't that short. Neo Bahamut, Bahamut Zero and Knights of the Round weren't exactly small. Typhoon and Hades also come to mind.

 

[kingcomrade]

Seriously I stopped playing FF8 before hitting the end of the first disk because of the reliance on summons. I'm glad squaresoft has so much fun making gorgeous summon animations, and they're fun to watch, you know, the first time. At least FF10 allowed you to shorten them. Too bad the summons were useless in that game. The only thing I used them for was nuking bosses. Get the monsters up to their limit break or whatever, then go into a boss battle and summon them 1 by 1.

 

[Drakron]

Well that because you SUCK, the juntion system was complicated but when you get a grasp of how to use it then it can make characters VERY powerful on its own.

The only boss that actually need to have a summon on disk 1 was Efreti since we were on a timer and Shiva dealt massive amount of damage.

The weak point was the magic system since you either refine it from objects or you had to steal it from enemies and since it had a key place on the juntion system that really limited the use of it in combat.

 

[Sarvis]

Well that because you SUCK, the juntion system was complicated but when you get a grasp of how to use it then it can make characters VERY powerful on its own.

Yep.