Solasta Solasta II - coming to Early Access - demo on February 24th

[Lacrymas]

I don't see the option "they were all very underwhelming compared to what any other class had to offer". With the Lowlife background giving proficiency in Thieves' Tools, there was no reason whatsoever to have a Rogue in the party. I still played the class a lot, but every time it was a clearly suboptimal pick.

Rogue is ok as a substitute for an archer Ranger because sneak attack is better than Hunter's Mark, but that's about it.

 

[lukaszek]

I don't see the option "they were all very underwhelming compared to what any other class had to offer". With the Lowlife background giving proficiency in Thieves' Tools, there was no reason whatsoever to have a Rogue in the party. I still played the class a lot, but every time it was a clearly suboptimal pick.

Rogue is ok as a substitute for an archer Ranger because sneak attack is better than Hunter's Mark, but that's about it.

yeah but ranger gets extra attacks. Main issue with rogue is lack of those. Also sneak attacking once. Thief kit without being able to use scrolls is final slap in the face

 

[anvi]

Rogues should let you teleport behind enemies and attack, then auto stealth to get away. Otherwise what's the point. They should have poison too. Preferably multiple poisons like one that incapacitates and one that just does damage. Maybe one that causes the target to hallucinate for a few rounds. Also Rogues should be able to attack body parts. Attack legs and the enemy runs slowly, attack arms for weaker attacks, etc.

Just putting a few spells on the basic Rogue was so lazy.

 

[NJClaw]

I don't see the option "they were all very underwhelming compared to what any other class had to offer". With the Lowlife background giving proficiency in Thieves' Tools, there was no reason whatsoever to have a Rogue in the party. I still played the class a lot, but every time it was a clearly suboptimal pick.

Rogue is ok as a substitute for an archer Ranger because sneak attack is better than Hunter's Mark, but that's about it.

It's "ok" in the sense that the game is so easy basically anything can work, but it's not strictly better. With Extra Attack and the Marksman features (Reaction Shot and Fast Aim), you end up doing more damage with a Ranger:

	Rogue (dice)	Rogue (avg)	Ranger (dice)	Ranger (avg)
1°	1d8+1d6+3	11	1d8+1d6+3	11
3°	1d8+2d6+3	14.5	1d8+1d6+3	11
5° (+2 dex)	1d8+3d6+4	19	2d8+2d6+8 (extra attack)	24
7°	1d8+4d6+4	22.5	2d8+2d6+8	24
9° (+2 dex)	1d8+5d6+5	27	2d8+2d6+10	26
11°	1d8+6d6+5	30.5	3d8+3d6+15 (fast aim)	39
13°	1d8+7d6+5	34	3d8+3d6+15	39
15°	1d8+8d6+5	37.5	4d8+4d6+20 (extra attack)	52

Of course you won't be able to use Fast Aim every turn, but we aren't taking into consideration many factors that favor the Ranger:
- Reaction Shot will give you an extra attack every once in a while;
- with the Archery fighting style you have a higher chance to hit;
- since you attack more, every bonus to damage will count more (this character will obviously equip the Bracers of Archery);
- since you make more attacks, your damage will be more consistent
- satisfying the conditions for your sneak attack is easy, but you won't be ALWAYS able to do it. Sometimes you'll want to hit someone in the backline or an unreachable archer up on a perch, and a rogue is close to useless in those cases.

 

[Bara]

Myzzrym how does it feel to know that the original Solasta may have been the cause for WOTC trying to revoke the Open Game License a few years ago?

At least that's according to what Ben Riggs said he heard when he was doing a interview with Mike Mearls.

Mike: So yeah the long and short of it is I feel bad for people who got stuck in that situation. Because I just think they didn’t have the right context to understand the reaction. And it’s the worst outcome. Like, you think you’re being reasonable, so then when people react, you think maybe, "Are they being unreasonable? Are the children wrong?" And this is a case where—no, the children were not wrong. And to Wizards' credit, they released the game under [Creative Commons], which is like OK, now they have no control over it. And then 5.5 came out and sort of changed things, I think you could just make stuff for it using the current 5E thing, so it makes the decision to crack down even more like, OK I don't know why, I think it was purely from a licensing standpoint. I think if you just look at it from that point it makes total sense.

Ben: The story I’ve heard is that there was a French video game called Solasta: Crown of the Magister—or I might even be saying it wrong—that was a real turning point for Chris Cocks. Because, for those of you who don’t know, and I didn't know unti I was told about it, it was a French video game that used 5th Edition as its engine. And it was D&D. And the press was all like, "This is the best D&D video game ever made!" And it's not D&D.

I just find it funny that Solasta could have been the breaking point and nearly upended the norms the TTRPG industry has been use too for so long if true.

But hey the SRD in the creative commons now so all good.

 

[Infinitron]

Haha, wow. I guess they might chill out after BG3 though.

 

[RPK]

Haha, wow. I guess they might chill out after BG3 though.

Maybe, but keep in mind, WOTC got their cut from BG3 and got nothing from Solasta afaik.

 

[Infinitron]

Haha, wow. I guess they might chill out after BG3 though.

Maybe, but keep in mind, WOTC got their cut from BG3 and got nothing from Solasta afaik.

Yeah, but the mainstream isn't going to say "Solasta is the best D&D video game ever made!" anymore. They've proven they can produce extremely successful videogames with their own brand, so less need to be worried about the OGL.

 

[Roguey]

Sawyer's justification for not using OGL in Pillars of Eternity vindicated here.

 

[Lacrymas]

Both PoE's system and D&D aren't suited for video games.

 

[mediocrepoet]

Sawyer's justification for not using OGL in Pillars of Eternity vindicated here.

What? That it might have been good and caused people to like it, making WotC jealous? Instead he built his own mousetrap so people would go: Hey, I critted my spell so the enemy got paralyzed for 2.3 seconds! Thanks Sawyer! That's awesome!

 

[NJClaw]

Both PoE's system and D&D aren't suited for video games.

Both Knights of the Chalice and Knights of the Chalice 2 seem p. good videogames to me.

 

[Roguey]

Both PoE's system and D&D aren't suited for video games.

"Capitalism is the worst economic system except for all the others."

What? That it might have been good and caused people to like it, making WotC jealous? Instead he built his own mousetrap so people would go: Hey, I critted my spell so the enemy got paralyzed for 2.3 seconds! Thanks Sawyer! That's awesome!

Josh was concerned Wizards were going to shut them down anyway because they have C&Ded internet character creators. https://techraptor.net/content/wotc-shuts-online-character-generators

Small guys like Pierre and HobGob are possibly off their radar, Obsidian wouldn't be.

 

[Lacrymas]

Both PoE's system and D&D aren't suited for video games.

Both Knights of the Chalice and Knights of the Chalice 2 seem p. good videogames to me.

Sorry, my bad. D&D 5E* isn't suited for video games.

 

[mediocrepoet]

Both PoE's system and D&D aren't suited for video games.

"Capitalism is the worst economic system except for all the others."

What? That it might have been good and caused people to like it, making WotC jealous? Instead he built his own mousetrap so people would go: Hey, I critted my spell so the enemy got paralyzed for 2.3 seconds! Thanks Sawyer! That's awesome!

Josh was concerned Wizards were going to shut them down anyway because they have C&Ded internet character creators. https://techraptor.net/content/wotc-shuts-online-character-generators

Small guys like Pierre and HobGob are possibly off their radar, Obsidian wouldn't be.

Yeah, that's true. And it was never an invalid concern. I'd actually forgotten about that. Tbh, at the time, I was surprised to see even stuff like KotC get off the ground because when I read through the OGL, it struck me that it had excluded computer games. Others came to a different conclusion.

 

[rojay]

Both PoE's system and D&D aren't suited for video games.

"Capitalism is the worst economic system except for all the others."

What? That it might have been good and caused people to like it, making WotC jealous? Instead he built his own mousetrap so people would go: Hey, I critted my spell so the enemy got paralyzed for 2.3 seconds! Thanks Sawyer! That's awesome!

Josh was concerned Wizards were going to shut them down anyway because they have C&Ded internet character creators. https://techraptor.net/content/wotc-shuts-online-character-generators

Small guys like Pierre and HobGob are possibly off their radar, Obsidian wouldn't be.

Yeah, that's true. And it was never an invalid concern. I'd actually forgotten about that. Tbh, at the time, I was surprised to see even stuff like KotC get off the ground because when I read through the OGL, it struck me that it had excluded computer games. Others came to a different conclusion.

No, it's not true. Anyone who releases a product commercially is on the radar of the IP owner. Roguey, do you really think they didn't notice a game released on Steam? I read the link you posted, and it looks like the character generator at issue was using trademarked materials. That's entirely different.

WotC didn't fuck with Pierre or or TSI because they had no basis to do so. You can't retroactively withdraw permission to use the SRD, and you can't copyright "rules" any more than you can copyright a recipe. Anybody can make a system with armor class, feats, hit points etc. Just don't use their actual trademarked assets.

I have always assumed Sawyer used a new system because he thought it would be better than the existing D&D rules. I seem to recall him saying something along those lines.

 

[Roguey]

Anyone who releases a product commercially is on the radar of the IP owner. Roguey, do you really think they didn't notice a game released on Steam?

KOTC was notably not on Steam until 2019. Lolbert that he is, Pierre only sold the game through his own website for a solid decade. Very off-the-radar.

They may not have been legally in the right, but there was a very real risk of lawyers getting involved and Obsidian didn't want to go through that. Though yes it's true Sawyer also wanted to do his own from-the-ground-up take.

 

[mediocrepoet]

Josh was concerned Wizards were going to shut them down anyway because they have C&Ded internet character creators. https://techraptor.net/content/wotc-shuts-online-character-generators

Small guys like Pierre and HobGob are possibly off their radar, Obsidian wouldn't be.

Yeah, that's true. And it was never an invalid concern. I'd actually forgotten about that. Tbh, at the time, I was surprised to see even stuff like KotC get off the ground because when I read through the OGL, it struck me that it had excluded computer games. Others came to a different conclusion.

No, it's not true. Anyone who releases a product commercially is on the radar of the IP owner. Roguey, do you really think they didn't notice a game released on Steam? I read the link you posted, and it looks like the character generator at issue was using trademarked materials. That's entirely different.

WotC didn't fuck with Pierre or or TSI because they had no basis to do so. You can't retroactively withdraw permission to use the SRD, and you can't copyright "rules" any more than you can copyright a recipe. Anybody can make a system with armor class, feats, hit points etc. Just don't use their actual trademarked assets.

I have always assumed Sawyer used a new system because he thought it would be better than the existing D&D rules. I seem to recall him saying something along those lines.

I wonder if I can track down an old OGL... pretty sure there's actually language in there that it only applies to print products and not electronic media such as computer games.

You can say they're on the radar of the IP holder but if the IP holder isn't aware of it because they're not somehow omniscient... It's why Nintendo hasn't smited everything out of existence forever. Probably the only reason.

 

[rojay]

KOTC was notably not on Steam until 2019. Lolbert that he is, Pierre only sold the game through his own website for a solid decade. Very off-the-radar.

They may not have been legally in the right, but there was a very real risk of lawyers getting involved and Obsidian didn't want to go through that. Though yes it's true Sawyer also wanted to do his own from-the-ground-up take.

You can say they're on the radar of the IP holder but if the IP holder isn't aware of it because they're not somehow omniscient... It's why Nintendo hasn't smited everything out of existence forever. Probably the only reason.

I know how Pierre sold the game; I bought it from him, then again on Steam. But even if they only learned about it in 2019, if they thought they could get some shekels from Pierre or TSI, they would have done it. When they tried to revoke the SRD a while back it definitely made everybody nervous, but if you search, you'll easily find an authoritative voice writing about the subject at the time and it'll probably do a better job explaining the issues than I have.

I have no idea about Nintendo, but there are so, so many lawyers who bill hundreds of dollars an hour just finding people "infringing" on trademarks that, if you're aware of a game, they probably are too.

 

[Roguey]

I know how Pierre sold the game; I bought it from him, then again on Steam. But even if they only learned about it in 2019, if they thought they could get some shekels from Pierre or TSI, they would have done it. When they tried to revoke the SRD a while back it definitely made everybody nervous, but if you search, you'll easily find an authoritative voice writing about the subject at the time and it'll probably do a better job explaining the issues than I have.

The idea wouldn't have been to get money from him, it would be to make him stop before release, lawfare. He would have had to consider whether it would be worth all the legal costs versus just changing the system.

 

[mediocrepoet]

I know how Pierre sold the game; I bought it from him, then again on Steam. But even if they only learned about it in 2019, if they thought they could get some shekels from Pierre or TSI, they would have done it. When they tried to revoke the SRD a while back it definitely made everybody nervous, but if you search, you'll easily find an authoritative voice writing about the subject at the time and it'll probably do a better job explaining the issues than I have.

The idea wouldn't have been to get money from him, it would be to make him stop before release, lawfare. He would have had to consider whether it would be worth all the legal costs versus just changing the system.

They could've went after him, sure. The cost of bothering would cost more than anything they'd get out of him though even if they were successful. No one eats roots because they're rolling in hookers and cocaine money.

 

[rojay]

I know how Pierre sold the game; I bought it from him, then again on Steam. But even if they only learned about it in 2019, if they thought they could get some shekels from Pierre or TSI, they would have done it. When they tried to revoke the SRD a while back it definitely made everybody nervous, but if you search, you'll easily find an authoritative voice writing about the subject at the time and it'll probably do a better job explaining the issues than I have.

The idea wouldn't have been to get money from him, it would be to make him stop before release, lawfare. He would have had to consider whether it would be worth all the legal costs versus just changing the system.

You're right about the cost of litigation, but they issue C&D letters before filing suit, and that's when the legal fees really start. Alternatively, they extort a license agreement, which is where the shekels come in. And not really relevant, but do you think Pierre would have caved? Crazy Frenchman could have represented himself and he'd still have won.

Didn't mean to derail the thread.

Sure hope they manage to work the editing tools into release!

 

[Roguey]

You're right about the cost of litigation, but they issue C&D letters before filing suit, and that's when the legal fees really start. And not really relevant, but do you think Pierre would have caved? Crazy Frenchman could have represented himself and he'd still have won.

Yeah, Pierre would have stood firm.

Not Feargus though, would have caved immediately and then yelled at Sawyer about it.

 

[Artyoan]

During that interview at around 44:18, Mearls says that he was actually asked to play Solasta, presumably by someone in WotC. That's right after the written snippet of the interview cuts off in the article link above.

 

[Myzzrym]

Myzzrym how does it feel to know that the original Solasta may have been the cause for WOTC trying to revoke the Open Game License a few years ago?

At least that's according to what Ben Riggs said he heard when he was doing a interview with Mike Mearls.

Mike: So yeah the long and short of it is I feel bad for people who got stuck in that situation. Because I just think they didn’t have the right context to understand the reaction. And it’s the worst outcome. Like, you think you’re being reasonable, so then when people react, you think maybe, "Are they being unreasonable? Are the children wrong?" And this is a case where—no, the children were not wrong. And to Wizards' credit, they released the game under [Creative Commons], which is like OK, now they have no control over it. And then 5.5 came out and sort of changed things, I think you could just make stuff for it using the current 5E thing, so it makes the decision to crack down even more like, OK I don't know why, I think it was purely from a licensing standpoint. I think if you just look at it from that point it makes total sense.

Ben: The story I’ve heard is that there was a French video game called Solasta: Crown of the Magister—or I might even be saying it wrong—that was a real turning point for Chris Cocks. Because, for those of you who don’t know, and I didn't know unti I was told about it, it was a French video game that used 5th Edition as its engine. And it was D&D. And the press was all like, "This is the best D&D video game ever made!" And it's not D&D.

I just find it funny that Solasta could have been the breaking point and nearly upended the norms the TTRPG industry has been use too for so long if true.

But hey the SRD in the creative commons now so all good.

Huh, thanks for the link.

I mean Ben himself is saying that it's something he heard, so it's more a rumor than anything else at this point... but it did make me raise an eyebrow lol. I do remember the "This is the best D&D video game I've ever seen" article from IGN in 2019, it did make us pretty happy to see that.