Sonic the Hedgehog Appreciation Thread

[Gastrick]

I'm convinced Sonic 1 was developed as a retard filter.

Great humility, I thought retards could enjoy Sonic 1 as well without being filtered, but now that you mention it...

Judgement past on a game finished several times over is not being "filtered"

It's a witty riposte, but lacks context.

Like I have said before, in Sonic 1 if you are able to react to obstacles then the game no longer feels slow. You'll come to sudden stops less and will finish levels faster. Although for a small portion of the game this does not matter, for the rest of it it will. Over a period of 69 years IQ scientists have been researching the link between intelligence and reaction time, and they have come to the conclusion, that "Intelligence implies Reaction Time." Disliking a game does not matter, but the reason why matters, like yours. For example, that review of Kingmaker that says "In a nutshell, poor level design. Everything in a level should be beatable or escapable so you can come back another day. Relying on the player reloading constantly is a poor design construct", is an awful reason. I'm sure they beat the game and everything as well.

 

[Morenatsu.]

i dont understand your rating

 

[Gastrick]

Is retard filter meant to mean something different than I think?
Unreal

What did you mean by your post, then?

 

[Morenatsu.]

Is retard filter meant to mean something different than I think?
Unreal

What did you mean by your post, then?

falksi is a retard who got filtered

btw i too am a sonic cd enjooyer

 

[Falksi]

Is retard filter meant to mean something different than I think?
Unreal

What did you mean by your post, then?

falksi is a retard who got filtered

btw i too am a sonic cd enjooyer

You're in there Gastrick.

Watch your backside mate.

 

[Ash]

Problem is with Sonic 1 that the level design rarely allows you to get up to speed, especially if you want to complete the game properly by getting all the chaos emeralds.

As someone with zero exposure to Sonic marketing prior to playing (I believe it was possibly my first ever game), this whole big deal everyone makes about SPEED OMG is just a non-issue. The speedway parts when present are also usually the most boring - going so fast you have no time to react to what is coming. Sonic 1 is one of the best in the series precisely for the fact that it does slow you down, so there can be some more meaningful gameplay in the form of skill-based combat (jumping on heads), platforming, timing challenges and all that traditional goodness, even if it isn't even spectacular at that either.
When speed and fun best mix in the whole series is Spring Yard Zone in Sonic 1 (and maybe flying battery in S&K) because instead of side-scrolling you're often going UP and it is therefore more about platforming with time to react (because gravity) than it is speed for speed's sake because some marketing blurb told the retards that was what was cool.
This aside, I consider Sonic 1 one of the best of the original games because of the quality soundtrack. Game is a bit clunky and the sequels more refined though.

 

[Falksi]

Problem is with Sonic 1 that the level design rarely allows you to get up to speed, especially if you want to complete the game properly by getting all the chaos emeralds.

As someone with zero exposure to Sonic marketing prior to playing (I believe it was possibly my first ever game), this whole big deal everyone makes about SPEED OMG is just a non-issue. The speedway parts when present are also usually the most boring - going so fast you have no time to react to what is coming. Sonic 1 is one of the best in the series precisely for the fact that it does slow you down, so there can be some more meaningful gameplay in the form of skill-based combat (jumping on heads), platforming, timing challenges and all that traditional goodness, even if it isn't even spectacular at that either.
When speed and fun best mix in the whole series is Spring Yard Zone in Sonic 1 (and maybe flying battery in S&K) because instead of side-scrolling you're often going UP and it is therefore more about platforming with time to react than it is speed for speed's sake, because some marketing blurb told the retards that was what was cool.
This aside, I consider Sonic 1 one of the best of the original games because of the quality soundtrack.

That's fair enough, and I have said that the initial hype & cognitive dissonance played a big part in me not enjoying it. After finishing it umpteen times now it's hard to change that perspective. Plus I don't like most of the soundtrack, not my cuppa cha.

But I do also find it amazing that anyone can enjoy Labyrinth Zone.

 

[Ash]

Labyrinth Zone is a classic water level. Much maligned, much feared...because the retards can't handle water levels (typically slow-paced, difficult to navigate, and overall hardcore). I sure miss water levels in games, a staple of the golden 90s. Labyrinth Zone also has amazing music even if it is a short loop.
However, I will say that it is one of the least enjoyable water levels out of all the water levels of the 90s. It is very notably sloooow even for a water level because movement speed is seriously hindered or the weird physics are just made even more apparent when slowed down, and it drags on a little too long (3 acts is a bit much). Yet there is still a bunch of interesting gameplay, music and aesthetics going on regardless. It could have been better though for sure. I recall always being fed up by the third act. The water levels in the sequels were better, shorter, and often with funky music too.

 

[Ash]

An interesting thing to note about Labyrinth Zone is that you can't actually swim too. This makes it extra challenging and allowed for a different kind of water level to the rest of the industry, but likely also adds to the frustration or tedium to some extent. Still, I can see some issue with it but I really don't think it is a bad stage. The main problem I think is it isn't interesting or fun enough to justify 3 acts and outstays its welcome. Nonetheless I recall a lot of cool challenges and decent level design that I can't rightly call it bad.

 

[Falksi]

An interesting thing to note about Labyrinth Zone is that you can't actually swim too. This makes it extra challenging and allowed for a different kind of water level to the rest of the industry, but likely also adds to the frustration or tedium to some extent. Still, I can see some issue with it but I really don't think it is a bad stage. The main problem I think is it isn't interesting or fun enough to justify 3 acts and outstays its welcome.

Aye. Let's not also forget though that you return to that underwater structure in Scrap Brain Zone Act 3 as well. So they're actually having to justify 4 levels with that same underwater setup too.

I'm just playing through Sonic 2 now, and without a doubt the 2-Act structure is a huge boost to the general pacing of the game.

 

[Ash]

An interesting thing to note about Labyrinth Zone is that you can't actually swim too. This makes it extra challenging and allowed for a different kind of water level to the rest of the industry, but likely also adds to the frustration or tedium to some extent. Still, I can see some issue with it but I really don't think it is a bad stage. The main problem I think is it isn't interesting or fun enough to justify 3 acts and outstays its welcome.

Aye. Let's not also forget that you return to that underwater structure in Scrap Brain Zone Act 3 as well. So they're actually having to justify 4 levels with that same underwater setup too.

Oh crap I forgot about that. Definitely overkill. Never liked that part, though without a memory refresh by watching a video this time I am sure the level design and challenges are still actually decent and well-designed just like Labyrinth Zone. Sonic 2 is the better game overall (longer, 2 stage acts results in better pacing, multiplayer) but I still enjoy 1 possibly equally for the music and overall greater level of difficulty. That Scrap Brain Water Zone always did put a dampener on things for me though. It's interesting because it's really not bad, it's not. I think it may be partly because the game in general is starting to drag on by this point, in addition to it recycling art assets and overall design from a level that already had started to drag...

 

[Gastrick]

An interesting thing to note about Labyrinth Zone is that you can't actually swim too. This makes it extra challenging and allowed for a different kind of water level to the rest of the industry, but likely also adds to the frustration or tedium to some extent. Still, I can see some issue with it but I really don't think it is a bad stage. The main problem I think is it isn't interesting or fun enough to justify 3 acts and outstays its welcome.

Aye. Let's not also forget though that you return to that underwater structure in Scrap Brain Zone Act 3 as well. So they're actually having to justify 4 levels with that same underwater setup too.

That water level is the best in the game, and a good level because you are really grasping for air in it. It's an actual challenge to stay alive until your next bubble. That's along with all the other obstacles that can kill you, and the few rings available.

Plus only newfags to the game wouldn't know that you can just pass the water section completely in that level if you run past the descending platform in the start.

 

[Morpheus Kitami]

The Sonic series is curious to me, as the intended design of being fast never really panned out. The development team and the marketing team seem to be constantly at odds about this, and players expecting the fastest platformer around are usually disappointed. I always found Mario to be the faster of the two in general, but I only ever really played the first title beyond the first few levels. I remember S3&K rewarding you quite extensively for exploring rather than going around as fast as possible. Hell, the 3D games, which tend to be the most straightforward stuff possible, tend to slow you up so much at times. I even remember disliking Sonic Heroes for the speed sections having glitchy as hell collision detection. You never know if Sonic's actually going to go on through or fall to his death for the 100th time. And that's in addition to all the stuff intentionally aiming to make you fall. I imagine quite a few kids got a fear of heights from that game.

 

[Generic-Giant-Spider]

I never liked Sonic. I loved just about every other Sega series like Golden Axe, Shinobi, Streets of Rage, etc. but Sonic always felt weird to me. You feel like you have almost no control and it's like a cutscene is playing. It also doesn't help that your biggest enemy in this game tends to be wall or floor spikes which is really lame. Your hedgehog mascot is such a retard he runs dead ahead into a spike protruding out of a wall. Nice work, Sega, way to make us Genesis kids look like speds when we had to defend your ass on the playground.

Over the years I grew to straight up resent Sonic because it overtook every other Sega series. Golden Axe became some C-team project with an awful budget title for PS2 and has been dead ever since, Shinobi hasn't had a game in nearly 20 years, Streets of Rage had to have an official game made by a different studio because Sega is too obsessed with their fur fetishist loser to give anything else meaningful attention.

Biggest mistake was not kicking that blue-ball FAG into a bed of spikes and making Segata Sanshiro the new face/mascot of Sega.

 

[Falksi]

I never liked Sonic. I loved just about every other Sega series like Golden Axe, Shinobi, Streets of Rage, etc. but Sonic always felt weird to me. You feel like you have almost no control and it's like a cutscene is playing. It also doesn't help that your biggest enemy in this game tends to be wall or floor spikes which is really lame. Your hedgehog mascot is such a retard he runs dead ahead into a spike protruding out of a wall. Nice work, Sega, way to make us Genesis kids look like speds when we had to defend your ass on the playground.

Over the years I grew to straight up resent Sonic because it overtook every other Sega series. Golden Axe became some C-team project with an awful budget title for PS2 and has been dead ever since, Shinobi hasn't had a game in nearly 20 years, Streets of Rage had to have an official game made by a different studio because Sega is too obsessed with their fur fetishist loser to give anything else meaningful attention.

Biggest mistake was not kicking that blue-ball FAG into a bed of spikes and making Segata Sanshiro the new face/mascot of Sega.

SEGA essentially tried to be Nintendo, and in doing so flatlined in the console market. Absolute fucking idiots, it was up there with Metallica's decisions to drop the guitar solos coz "trendz".

I share your frustration seeing some potentially brilliant series cast aside for the easy-but-shit-buck. Retro gaming has grown massively during Covid because of the modern game delays & lockdowns, and like you say if SEGA were smart they'd start churning more of these proper sequels out again, with some proper backing in the marketing department too.

I mean SOR 4 has sold 2.5m copies. It's no massive number like say The Last of Us numbers, but considering how low the production costs are and how relatively little marketing it had, it's still worth it. If they got their act together with yearly sequels & spin offs to those series you mention, plus other staples such as Space Harrier, Shining Force, Outrun etc. they'd make a nice little side-earner.

Hell, just fucking release Golden Axe: The Revenge of Death Adder in an easy to access format and give it some marketing. It's one of THE best Beat 'Em Ups ever made, and few even know about it. They don't even have to make it, it's already a classic. Stupid cunts.

 

[Morenatsu.]

nintendo is shit

 

[Falksi]

Also, SEGA really should be making a pixel based Cobra Kai SOR-style game too. Cobra Kai & SEGA's 80's badass attitude go hand in hand.

 

[Gastrick]

The 2D Sonic Games, even considering the "slower" first game, are still faster than 90% of platformers. It's faster than Ristar and Michael Jackson and Metroid and Ninja Gaiden. With speed shoes, that number goes up to 98%. With hyper sonic, up to 100%. There's also the illusion of speed which makes some games feel faster than others. The main way this happens is when the screen is zoomed in, or in other words that the character sprites are larger. An example is looking out of the car while a passenger in a car, nearby objects zoom by and distant ones barely move. Most 2D Mario games have tiny sprites and thus feel slower than Sonic. The only time one can become fast is with Mario 3 if you manage to get into P-mode. The slow sections in Mario and levels where you wait for the screen to scroll forward and do nothing. Enemies are also at times more of a threat in Mario where you have to be careful about how you will deal with them. Also when you are down to small-form in Mario, you need to play carefully and stop in hit each block, so playing slower. Or else Mario dies.

Over the years I grew to straight up resent Sonic because it overtook every other Sega series. Golden Axe became some C-team project with an awful budget title for PS2 and has been dead ever since, Shinobi hasn't had a game in nearly 20 years, Streets of Rage had to have an official game made by a different studio because Sega is too obsessed with their fur fetishist loser to give anything else meaningful attention.

Looking at the state of Sonic in 3d, isn't this for the best that other titles never left 2d? They've messed up every 3D Sonic game, some worse than others. It would still be the same people making the 3d games for Golden Axe and Shinobi.

 

[Falksi]

The 2D Sonic Games, even considering the "slower" first game, are still faster than 90% of platformers. It's faster than Ristar and Michael Jackson and Metroid and Ninja Gaiden.

Only Ristar out of those games is a platformer.

Moonwalker is an action game with more in common with Beat 'Em Ups than traditional platformers, Metroid is an adventure game with way more in common than shooters than platformers, and Ninja Gaiden is another action based game (granted with platforming elements, but still not a platformer).

None of those games rea designed to be fast because you're supposed to stop and engage the enemy in all of them. In Mario & Sonic you're not. You're supposed to bounce on by them. Yeah you can kill them in the process, but they're not designed to give you satisfaction in slicing or blasting folk up. I mean Moonwalkers main pull was how you killed the enemies in various spectacular fashions with hat throws & dances etc.

Super Mario World is faster than Sonic 1 by far too.

 

[Gastrick]

Only Ristar out of those games is a platformer.

Moonwalker is an action game with more in common with Beat 'Em Ups than traditional platformers, Metroid is an adventure game with way more in common than shooters than platformers, and Ninja Gaiden is another action based game (granted with platforming elements, but still not a platformer).

None of those games rea designed to be fast because you're supposed to stop and engage the enemy in all of them. In Mario & Sonic you're not. You're supposed to bounce on by them. Yeah you can kill them in the process, but they're not designed to give you satisfaction in slicing or blasting folk up. I mean Moonwalkers main pull was how you killed the enemies in various spectacular fashions with hat throws & dances etc.

Super Mario World is faster than Sonic 1 by far too.

Wrong, those are all platformer games. 2D platformer games are games with falling gravity, varying verticality, ability to jump and a side-view of the world. Wikipedia confirms that Metroid is a platformer, and Moonwalker and Ninja Gaiden both fall into that definition. Even if I do list mario-like platform games like Adventure Island, most of them will still be slower.

Not really no, because of the illusion of speed SMW isn't a fast game. Going fast isn't the most important thing in "non-action" platformers either way. What's most important is well made platforming that is satisfying. Sonic 1 is more focused on building up momentum so it can't just be fast immediately. It's better that Sonic 1 is slower than the sequels because then you can be more precise with the platforming. It also makes Sonic 1 feel more like a game than watching Sonic go forward for a minute through loops like in Sonic 2. Faster Sonic 2 needs to rely on cheap shots like those minispears for gameplay.

 

[Generic-Giant-Spider]

isn't this for the best that other titles never left 2d?

The Shinobi game for PS2 was pretty fun from what I remember. Had this thing where if you killed enemies fast enough it'd show you sheath your blade or strike a cool pose while they all dramatically were cut in half.

And they never had to leave 2D to begin with as SOR4 has proven. All they have to do is make a good, quality game for a series like Golden Axe and you've successfully revived the franchise and renewed interest. Instead they'd rather go for some world record on how many Sonic games they can release to the point of pure apathy.

 

[Falksi]

Only Ristar out of those games is a platformer.

Moonwalker is an action game with more in common with Beat 'Em Ups than traditional platformers, Metroid is an adventure game with way more in common than shooters than platformers, and Ninja Gaiden is another action based game (granted with platforming elements, but still not a platformer).

None of those games rea designed to be fast because you're supposed to stop and engage the enemy in all of them. In Mario & Sonic you're not. You're supposed to bounce on by them. Yeah you can kill them in the process, but they're not designed to give you satisfaction in slicing or blasting folk up. I mean Moonwalkers main pull was how you killed the enemies in various spectacular fashions with hat throws & dances etc.

Super Mario World is faster than Sonic 1 by far too.

Wrong, those are all platformer games. 2D platformer games are games with falling gravity, varying verticality, ability to jump and a side-view of the world. Wikipedia confirms that Metroid is a platformer, and Moonwalker and Ninja Gaiden both fall into that definition. Even if I do list mario-like platform games like Adventure Island, most of them will still be slower.

Not really no, because of the illusion of speed SMW isn't a fast game. Going fast isn't the most important thing in "non-action" platformers either way. What's most important is well made platforming that is satisfying. Sonic 1 is more focused on building up momentum so it can't just be fast immediately. It's better that Sonic 1 is slower than the sequels because then you can be more precise with the platforming. It also makes Sonic 1 feel more like a game than watching Sonic go forward for a minute through loops like in Sonic 2. Faster Sonic 2 needs to rely on cheap shots like those minispears for gameplay.

That's a fucking stupid definition whoever says it. Belongs up there with "Skyrim is an CRPG". Games which prioritize killing enemies over navigating platforms are action games, some which contain a balance of both elements action-platformers, but they're not pure platformers like Sonic and Mario. You can play Sonic and go through it without killing the majority of the bog standard enemies. If you're not bothered about Chaos Emeralds you can just take hit after hit by accepting losing them. Contra 3 you can't because if you don't regularly stop to kill enemies you can't progress further. Sonic and Mario have an athletically setup which means they can avoid most enemies. But I'd piss myself at someone trying to playing Contra 3 without using any weapons.

Whoever wrote that wants fucking with a wire brush. Contra has all those elements, Atomic Runner has all those elements, but only an idiot would liken those games to Sonic.

And Anyone with eyes can see that, apart from the odd handful of sections which Sonic's movement might get up to a faster speed, as an overall game SMW is faster.

 

[Generic-Giant-Spider]

Classic Mario > Classic Sonic, that's for sure. I love the Genesis, I consider the six button controller to be among the best ever created, I will always prefer it over the SNES but games like SMB3 and SMW were always superior over every Sonic game on Genesis.

Sonic does have pretty jamming music though. So it might have it beat there.

 

[Falksi]

Classic Mario > Classic Sonic, that's for sure. I love the Genesis, I consider the six button controller to be among the best ever created, I will always prefer it over the SNES but games like SMB3 and SMW were always superior over every Sonic game on Genesis.

Totally agree.

I find Nintendo's cutesy vibe and recycled formulas far less absorbing and far more redundant than SEGA's grittier, more adult orientated games. My go to gaming setup is PC for quality and lengthy sessions, Megadrive for quick blasts. But I enjoy the SNES too, and Classic Mario is vastly superior to Classic Sonic without a doubt.

I'm just playing through Sonic 2 now and, whilst it's definitely more fun than 1 because of the better level design, it's still not a patch on SMB3 or SMW. Not even close.

 

[Ash]

Fuck SMW and its ice skates physics, overly cutesy art and dumbing down/removal of awesome SMB3 content. All the classic Sonics are better, but have nothing on SMB3. Also, no mention of the DKC games?

I think Gastrick had a point also. Sonic is one of if not the fastest platformer of the 80s/90s, so the speed crybabies' arguments feel kind of moot.