Development Info South Park: The Stick of Truth delayed

[Mrowak]

Mrowak, let me ask you a question, why do you even care about this? You don't like Obsidian's games and you have no faith in their ability to produce games in the first place. Why are you even remotely interested in this project?

There are a few reasons.

1) I am interested in P:E. It can turn out quite interesting in spite of the odds.

2) I like the chaps, and I recognise their talent.

3) I claim that their games are mediocre but there's at least one-two very interesting features which warrant going through the headache in order to experience them. My position is, that the headaches stem from bad planning and lack of cooperation that results from it. I want them to make a single focused experience, and not a clusterfuck with a few pearls inside they keep churning out. I want them to get their act together and make a single golden shot, because now they have all the reasons to and immense pressure... Unfortunately, they fail to prove they are capable of that. :/

4) From project management perspective this is an interesting case. Whether it succeeds or not it will warrant a case study. I will keep following it.

 

[J_C]

As it is, it seems to me that because Obsidian operated without the design, the publisher stepped in and made their own vision manifest.

You can't really think that! Without a design, no publisher would hire Obsidian for work.

And yet, we "hired" them without a single damn thing, and they didn't feel a single inclination to provide us with a fraction of what publishers expect. We - their fans, who actually buy their games - were treated worse than their publishers. And we agreed to that. We are supposed to be happy about that. Typical sheeple marketing, methinks.

Please don't use the term WE. YOU and DU are the only ones who are all doom and gloom about this. I was treated very well by Obsidian during this project so far, thank you. When they screw up, than I will start bitching. Until then, they have my faith.

And besides, why don't you start bitching about these things at the Double Fine Adventure and Wasteland 2 topic.

 

[Rake]

As it is, it seems to me that because Obsidian operated without the design, the publisher stepped in and made their own vision manifest.

You can't really think that! Without a design, no publisher would hire Obsidian for work.

And yet, we "hired" them without a single damn thing, and they didn't feel a single inclination to provide us with a fraction of what publishers expect. We - their fans, who actually buy their games - were treated worse than their publishers. And we agree to that. Typical sheeple marketing, methinks.

Every kickstarter has done the same thing including wasteland 2. It seems to me your problem is with the entire model of kickstarting. ANd i'm not so sure that when obsidian pitch something to publisers provides much more details beyond a general direction. To design a game takes time and obsidian won't work for free for one or two months to put together the bare bones of the game, not even for kickstarter apparently

 

[Mrowak]

As it is, it seems to me that because Obsidian operated without the design, the publisher stepped in and made their own vision manifest.

You can't really think that! Without a design, no publisher would hire Obsidian for work.

And yet, we "hired" them without a single damn thing, and they didn't feel a single inclination to provide us with a fraction of what publishers expect. We - their fans, who actually buy their games - were treated worse than their publishers. And we agreed to that. We are supposed to be happy about that. Typical sheeple marketing, methinks.

Please don't use the term WE.

You paid for the project, right? So you "hired" them. Did I pay to Obsidian? Yeah, I did. That's *WE*.

YOU and DU are the only ones who are all doom and gloom about this. I was treated very well by Obsidian during this project so far, thank you. When they screw up, than I will start bitching. Until then, they have my faith.

I just want to pass some critical thinking here. I am not even that pessimistic, I just point at the mistakes and obvious marketing pulls, and it's you who get defensive of them (the whole "Please don't use the term WE" thing). We highlight the dangers, the problems, the difficulties, and yet you keep telling us they are not important, because... they are not important... when in fact they are very significant.

J_C, I know you *want* them to succeed. Believe me, I do want their project to be successful as well... But what I see does not give me that vibe - the opposite is true. So I voice it. It's time for you to ask yourself whether the problems I mentioned are non-existent, or whether you simply don't want to see them, because it would spoil your perfect dream-vision. When you drive a car and you see a tree ahead of you, it won't magically disappear if you close your eyes, you know?

 

[l3loodAngel]

And to be honest, your theories do sound very unprofessional, as if coming from a person who heard what a project is and what maintenance costs are but have not been hold accountable for any of them and now makes up how you imagine stuff works, when it cannot and will not work that way, for various reasons enumerated above.

That is a very bold statement. Do you have something to back it up, because from my point of view, your team is making stuff up as they go, accusing of imaginary stuff and constantly derailing discussion to prove that Obsidian KS is fraud and mismanagement.

 

[J_C]

And yet, we "hired" them without a single damn thing, and they didn't feel a single inclination to provide us with a fraction of what publishers expect. We - their fans, who actually buy their games - were treated worse than their publishers. And we agreed to that. We are supposed to be happy about that. Typical sheeple marketing, methinks.

Please don't use the term WE.

You paid for the project, right? So you "hired" them. Did I pay to Obsidian? Yeah, I did. That's *WE*.

Sorry, I was referring to the "we were treated worse than publishers" part.

It's time for you to ask yourself whether the problems I mentioned are non-existent, or whether you simply don't want to see them, because it would spoil your perfect dream-vision. When you drive a car and you see a tree ahead of you, it won't magically disappear if you close your eyes, you know?

I think those problems are non-existent. I'm not saying that I'm 100% percent sure about this, because there is a possibility that everything you said is true and this project is a trainwreck. But right now I don't see any sign for that. I can't see those negative signs you claim to exist. And not because I shut my eyes and go "tralalalala, I can't hear you", but because I actually don't think that the problems you mention are exist. I don't think they will mismanage the funds, I don't think they have no idea how to make this game just because they didn't give me a design document.

 

[Mrowak]

And to be honest, your theories do sound very unprofessional, as if coming from a person who heard what a project is and what maintenance costs are but have not been hold accountable for any of them and now makes up how you imagine stuff works, when it cannot and will not work that way, for various reasons enumerated above.

That is a very bold statement. Do you have something to back it up, because from my point of view, your team is making stuff up as they go, accusing of imaginary stuff and constantly derailing discussion to prove that Obsidian KS is fraud and mismanagement.

They are not frauds. They are well-intentioned bunch. They want to make the game they promised. They just don't know how, so their promises hold no water, which to me isn't reassuring. I saw other teams of enthusiasts fail or produce half-assed results, just because they thought their passion would be enough. Hell, I was a part of one such team.

You realise why I am so cynical butthurt about it, don't you?

 

[l3loodAngel]

You realise why I am so cynical butthurt about it, don't you?

I do, but maybe it's time to let it go and move on. We can always raise valid concerns when production is going into wrong direction, but you can't believe we should have more control over the project? Because I for one don't want romance crowd to have any say about finances or management of Obsidian.

 

[Mrowak]

Sorry, I was referring to the "we were treated worse than publishers" part.

Indeed, it applies to us as well. The problem is when the involved party decides not to perceive it. We *were* treated worse than publishers. It appears they cannot trust the people they get their money from... who are not publishers (or are we? we make it possible for the game to be published, right?).

It's time for you to ask yourself whether the problems I mentioned are non-existent, or whether you simply don't want to see them, because it would spoil your perfect dream-vision. When you drive a car and you see a tree ahead of you, it won't magically disappear if you close your eyes, you know?

I think those problems are non-existent. I'm not saying that I'm 100% percent sure about this, because there is a possibility that everything you said is true and this project is a trainwreck.

No, everything I said is true: they didn't have a plan (you remember how you claimed they *might* have one and it was unreasonable of me to demand a peek into it? well, it appears you were wrong), it was all marketing and they do have financial difficulties. And they have made interesting though terribly flawed games. I say this does not bode well. You say it doesn't matter.

 

[Mrowak]

You realise why I am so cynical butthurt about it, don't you?

I do, but maybe it's time to let it go and move on. We can always raise valid concerns when production is going into wrong direction, but you can't believe we should have more control over the project? Because I for one don't want romance crowd to have any say about finances or management of Obsidian.

No one said anything about control over how the project runs. It's entirely about showing how it can be realised. I do not want Biodrones to dictate what they are going to do either. In fact, no one raised that point anywhere in this discussion. It's all about transparency and accountability.

 

[Spectacle]

They are not frauds. They are well-intentioned bunch. They want to make the game they promised. They just don't know how, so their promises hold no water, which to me isn't reassuring. I saw other teams of enthusiasts fail or produce half-assed results, just because they thought their passion would be enough. Hell, I was a part of one such team.

You realise why I am so cynical butthurt about it, don't you?

THEY ARE NOT A TEAM OF ENTHUSIASTS THEY ARE A COMPANY OF PROFESSIONAL GAME DEVELOPERS WITH DECADES OF EXPERIENCE AMONG THEM. SORRY FOR SHOUTING BUT I AM MAKING ONE LAST ATTEMPT TO GET THIS POINT THROUGH YOUR THICK SKULL.

 

[l3loodAngel]

You realise why I am so cynical butthurt about it, don't you?

I do, but maybe it's time to let it go and move on. We can always raise valid concerns when production is going into wrong direction, but you can't believe we should have more control over the project? Because I for one don't want romance crowd to have any say about finances or management of Obsidian.

No one said anything about control over how the project runs. It's entirely about showing how it can be realised. I do not want Biodrones to dictate what they are going to do either. In fact, no one raised that point anywhere in this discussion. It's all about transparency and accountability.

If you put information up for public, you will be judged by people who are not really experts in the field and this can turn it into PR nightmare. Another thing here is fairness. I have not heard people raising issues so vocally on any other KS project. You would think that we are talking about Ex Enron executives starting a game company. Presumption of innocence should be applied here.

Also, what is the point of knowing information without the ability to change or influence it? So they release the data you ask for and then we can see that there is no way for them to finish the project. What then?

 

[Mrowak]

They are not frauds. They are well-intentioned bunch. They want to make the game they promised. They just don't know how, so their promises hold no water, which to me isn't reassuring. I saw other teams of enthusiasts fail or produce half-assed results, just because they thought their passion would be enough. Hell, I was a part of one such team.

You realise why I am so cynical butthurt about it, don't you?

THEY ARE NOT A TEAM OF ENTHUSIASTS THEY ARE A COMPANY OF PROFESSIONAL GAME DEVELOPERS WITH DECADES OF EXPERIENCE AMONG THEM. SORRY FOR SHOUTING BUT I AM MAKING ONE LAST ATTEMPT TO GET THIS POINT THROUGH YOUR THICK SKULL.

Yes, you are right obviously. Frankly, I hoped that professional side would be the highlight of their Kickstarter campaign. Boy, I was disappointed. Apart from marketing - which was an impressive thing indeed - there was not a single professional aspect in that pitch. As a result, I simply cannot picture them as professionals anymore.

 

[J_C]

I simply cannot picture them as professionals anymore.

Fallout New Vegas - sold 5 million. Nice try from a bunch of amateur garage developers. Oh wait, no, they are a medium sized company which successfully makes videogames for 10 years. Oh wait, no, they didn't give a detailed plan for their kickstarter project, they must be amateurs.

 

[Mrowak]

I simply cannot picture them as professionals anymore.

Fallout New Vegas - sold 5 million. Nice try from a bunch of amateur garage developers. Oh wait, no, they are a medium sized company which successfully makes videogames for 10 years. Oh wait, no, they didn't give a detailed plan for their kickstarter project, they must be amateurs.

No one said they develop garbage. They are just mediocre, which is a shame. If they put their back into it they could achieve a lot. I do not see that, so I am not reassured.

Also since when the number of copies sold is the sure sign of the quality of the product? It appears that Diablo 3 sold much more than that. Ergo it must be the greatest game evar.

Not to mention Bethesda's Fallout 3

 

[J_C]

I'm just saying that an unprofessional bunch of people couldn't have developed those games they were making.

 

[Mrowak]

I'm just saying that an unprofessional bunch of people couldn't have developed those games they were making.

They are not that great, you know? Exactly because they lacked planning. I once said that as individuals Obsidian's crew is the best lot there is. It's a great shame that as a team they always have to fuck something up, in the end.

You know, I am tired of replying to 3 people at once. I think that I conveyed everything I wanted to say. There's really nothing I can add, so let's just agree to dsiagree, until the next time we get some news from them.

 

[J_C]

I'm just saying that an unprofessional bunch of people couldn't have developed those games they were making.

They are not that great, you know? Exactly because they lacked planning.

I disagree.

so let's just agree to dsiagree, until the next time we get some news from them.

Yeah, that's a good idea

 

[evdk]

You paid for the project, right? So you "hired" them.

Haha, God no. You just donated money to an uncertain venture and have somewhere between zero and no rights.

 

[Mrowak]

You paid for the project, right? So you "hired" them.

Haha, God no. You just donated money to an uncertain venture and have somewhere between zero and no rights.

Precisely. And everyone else seems to claim it's ok, for some magical reason. That's why Kickstarter will need to change. I wonder which larger project will fail to deliver first.

 

[evdk]

I do not personally see how a pledger protection could be setup legally, because at the moment the whole thing looks like a giant clusterfuck. It would probably take some high profile court case to set up some precedents.

 

[l3loodAngel]

You paid for the project, right? So you "hired" them.

Haha, God no. You just donated money to an uncertain venture and have somewhere between zero and no rights.

Precisely. And everyone else seems to claim it's ok, for some magical reason. That's why Kickstarter will need to change. I wonder which larger project will fail to deliver first.

Do you really think that managerial "help" from biodrones is going to save KS?

 

[evdk]

The obligation to present some kind of business plan along with a campaign video might.

 

[J_C]

Kickstarter workes just fine since its debut. Of course there have been failures, but a business plan (which could be fake) wouldn't change that.

What if Obsidian had made a fake business plan for PE, which would show that everything is OK with the project. You couldn't check that if it is true or false. How would that help?

 

[Mrowak]

I do not personally see how a pledger protection could be setup legally, because at the moment the whole thing looks like a giant clusterfuck. It would probably take some high profile court case to set up some precedents.

That's why the first huge project must fail for that to happen.

You paid for the project, right? So you "hired" them.

Haha, God no. You just donated money to an uncertain venture and have somewhere between zero and no rights.

Precisely. And everyone else seems to claim it's ok, for some magical reason. That's why Kickstarter will need to change. I wonder which larger project will fail to deliver first.

Do you really think that managerial "help" from biodrones is going to save KS?

No one's talking about managerial rights. There should be rights protecting the interest of the consumer and requirement for the developer to set up a fail-safe mechanisms (e.g. insurance) and announce their general plan as well as an official, sanctioned vision document. The second bit is the very minimum I expect of professionals.

Also, what am I doing here? I've got work to do.