Special attacks

[Vault Dweller]

I've already mentioned special attacks in another thread:

"Think FO2 unarmed attacks. In AoD it's anything from Fast Attack (reduced APs, low accuracy) to Power Attack (more APs, bonus vs DR - armor's damage resistance) to Whirlwind (max APs, crowd control) to Disarm (defence bonus, chance to disarm). Technically, we can easily add Aimed Attack: Head, etc to duplicate Fallout's aimed attacks"

Now, in case I missed something (the above is just a small sample, obviously), I'd like to ask you what kind of special attacks you'd like to see in a game like AoD or just in any fantasy game. Special attacks could be generic (work with every weapon) or weapon-specific (Impale works only with spears), and should have an upside and a downside.

 

[Spazmo]

About that downside, since AoD has perks, will there be D&D style perks like improved impale (or what have you) that will reduce or lessen the downside of a special attack?

For that matter, what kind of perks do you have in general (probably material for a different topic)?

 

[Mulciber]

What about exceptionally showy/intimidating attacks intended to demoralize your enemies? Or would that sort of intimidation skill be better left in the dialog tree?

 

[Vault Dweller]

About that downside, since AoD has perks, will there be D&D style perks like improved impale (or what have you) that will reduce or lessen the downside of a special attack?

No. The way it works, the downside is represented by skill penalties, so high(er) skills would decrease the penalty. Makes sense?

For example, Fast Attack - you attack faster without aiming (-1AP, 40% skill penalty). Let's say, your Sword skill is 100, it takes 5AP to swing it; Fast Attack reduces the speed to 4AP, so characters with 8 APs can now attack twice per turn, but the skill value used for "to hit" calculations is now 60 instead of 100. You'd feel the difference. However, if you increase the skill to 200, for example, the skill value drops to 120 which is still good enough. That way, the skill development is rewarded properly and a skilled opponent can successfully use many powerful attacks that are useless for low skills characters.

Comments on that?

For that matter, what kind of perks do you have in general (probably material for a different topic)?

As you can see here, we have perks like Master of Spear that recognizes your weapon skills , Army Training that you get for training with the Imperial Guards, and Centurion, which is your rank with the Guards. Most perks/traits are what you earn by doing something in the gameworld.

 

[Vault Dweller]

What about exceptionally showy/intimidating attacks intended to demoralize your enemies? Or would that sort of intimidation skill be better left in the dialog tree?

Nope, nothing like that. Intimidation depends on Persuasion, weapon skill (if you are about to intimidate a fighter, you better look like the sort who can handle a sword), and BodyCount stat (nobody liked to mess with psychotic killers).

 

[obediah]

About that downside, since AoD has perks, will there be D&D style perks like improved impale (or what have you) that will reduce or lessen the downside of a special attack?

No. The way it works, the downside is represented by skill penalties, so high(er) skills would decrease the penalty. Makes sense?

For example, Fast Attack - you attack faster without aiming (-1AP, 40% skill penalty). Let's say, your Sword skill is 100, it takes 5AP to swing it; Fast Attack reduces the speed to 4AP, so characters with 8 APs can now attack twice per turn, but the skill value used for "to hit" calculations is now 60 instead of 100. You'd feel the difference. However, if you increase the skill to 200, for example, the skill value drops to 120 which is still good enough. That way, the skill development is rewarded properly and a skilled opponent can successfully use many powerful attacks that are useless for low skills characters.

Comments on that?

To use the above as an example, I think he was asking about having for example "Improved Fast Attack" perk, where the affect is (-1AP, 30% skill penalty) or something like that. I'm not sure if you misunderstood his question a bit, or just answered with "no" and then went off on a tangent.

Sounds like a good system, I think having perks to augment certain special attacks would be nice and let you feel like you were customizing your character. They'd be a balancing nightmare though - speaking of which have you stated your balancing goals anywhere? I'm sure you want to avoid uber min/maxes, but are you looking to make all approaches equal in difficulty. I remember a lot of people were upset that the tech road was so hard in arcanum, but I like the idea that some styles are just harder to succeed at than others. Since there isn't going to be MP, let alon PVP, I think you have a lot of leeway in your goals.

 

[Vault Dweller]

To use the above as an example, I think he was asking about having for example "Improved Fast Attack" perk, where the affect is (-1AP, 30% skill penalty) or something like that. I'm not sure if you misunderstood his question a bit, or just answered with "no" and then went off on a tangent.

Misunderstood/was disrupted ten times when I was trying to read the post - crazy day at work. My apologies. No, there are no perks influencing special attacks, but there are perks that ADD special attacks. Anyway, we are always tweaking things so we may add more perks now or later. Any examples / suggestions?

They'd be a balancing nightmare though - speaking of which have you stated your balancing goals anywhere?

Yep. Right here

 

[Ivy Mike]

Since I'm not that well versed in regular RPG material, I'd say that several feats found in the D&D 3e Player's Handbook would work as special attacks. Not having the books before me I'll just throw some suggestions out there:

Generic

• All those you mentioned allready (Fast Attack, Power Attack, Whirlwind and Disarm).
• Trip Attack. In theory a Trip Attack could be made with any weapon or even unarmed. Realistically a Trip Attack with a dirk, for example, might seem strange, so it could be balanced against the strenght modifier for medium->large weapons and the dexterity modifier for small weapons (think quickly ducking and jabbing at the leg of your opponent with your knife). The upside is that your opponent falls (duh) and stays down for n number of rounds, making an easier and less protected target (by-pass shield, for example). The downside would be that a failed Trip Attack causes reduced protective modifiers for the next round, making the attacker more likely to recieve damage. Alternatively it could make you (or whomever is making the Trip Attack) to loos the entire next round.
  However, it might be better to reserve Trip Attack for weapons like chains, halberds or the like - weapons who can easily reach and "grab" the legs of your opponent.

Whips/Chains

• Strangle. The upside is that a succesfull attack causes the opponent to be immobilized and loose HP each round (or fatigue points if you use those) at a rate determined by the attackers strenght modifier. The lengt of the stranglehold is determined by rolling the attackers strenght+dexterity modifiers against each other. The downside is that the attacker is unable to do anything else.
• Trip Attack. See above.

Hammers/Mauls/Morning Stars

• Knock down. Think Fallout sledgehammer. A succesfull attack causes the opponent to be knocked down (either by hitting the head, or the solar plexus), loosing the next round. The downside could be that the attacker looses the next round, due to the sheer ammount of energy that goes into making the attack (a bad idea, I know, but I can't think of anything else right now).

Not that many, but it might be a start.

 

[Walks with the Snails]

As long as you can call a shot to the groin, I'm good. Maybe that can go into your reputation as well. Tiberius the Castrater.

 

[obediah]

As long as you can call a shot to the groin, I'm good. Maybe that can go into your reputation as well. Tiberius the Castrater.

I think to get that you need to spend years studying under the grand master of rape defense, who is of course a 300 lb woman with a face slightly less attractive than a rotten.com mural. You know the one that beat the crap out of space moose that one time.

 

[Vault Dweller]

Trip Attack ... However, it might be better to reserve Trip Attack for weapons like chains, halberds or the like - weapons who can easily reach and "grab" the legs of your opponent.
...
Whips/Chains

Don't have any for "too much animating work" reason. The official list: dagger, sword, hammer, axe, spear, bow, xbow, throwing.

Strangle.

That would work for unarmed style, but we don't have that either.

Hammers/Mauls/Morning Stars
Knock down. Think Fallout sledgehammer. A succesfull attack causes the opponent to be knocked down

That's already in and tied to the hammer class. Any hammer strike has a chance to send an opponent flying. The higher the skill, the higher the chance.

 

[Ivy Mike]

As long as you can call a shot to the groin, I'm good.

• 
  [*]Nutsacker. Your expertise in unarmed fighting have given you the ability to make an extremely fierce and precise kick to the groin of your opponent. A succesfull attack renders your opponent unconcius for two full rounds, and makes them squeal. Like a girl.

I like it.


[edit]
Fixed a typo.
[/edit]

 

[Lancaster]

How about fighting modes like in KOTOR 2? Fighting one-on-one, or vs multiple opponents, or maybe vs archers. What do you think? They didn't really work in KOTOR but the idea was good and if you make your game challenging, that would be a nice addition.

 

[Astromarine]

"Chokehold": makes you grab the guy and immediately open a dialog window where you can intimidate/question him with a bonus. have two exit dialogues: one to continue fighting and one to attempt to intimidate him into running away, which can fail of course.

[/dream]

 

[Vault Dweller]

Well, there are dialogue options in combat (generic example, 3 thugs attacked you, you kicked the shit out of 2, the last one suddenly feels that violence is wrong and wants to discuss that with you), so we can add more. Not sure about that chokehold thing mostly because it would require special animations, but can we do anything else for you, Astro? Would disarming and going into the dialogue mode do?

 

[Vault Dweller]

How about fighting modes like in KOTOR 2? Fighting one-on-one, or vs multiple opponents, or maybe vs archers. What do you think? They didn't really work in KOTOR but the idea was good and if you make your game challenging, that would be a nice addition.

I actually like that idea. Thanks.

 

[Roqua]

how about a fient attack that is based off of int or perc and can only be used in the third round of combat or after. I'm not 100% sure how stats work so I won't give advice to what or how the bonus should be, but something that could make a usually non-combat stat used during combat?

 

[Roqua]

How about fighting modes like in KOTOR 2? Fighting one-on-one, or vs multiple opponents, or maybe vs archers. What do you think? They didn't really work in KOTOR but the idea was good and if you make your game challenging, that would be a nice addition.

I actually like that idea. Thanks.

For some good ideas to this I would check out The Riddle of Steel, which is dubbed as the most realistic rpg and the only one sanctioned by ARMA. They have a few different stances in the main sourcebook and more listed in the "Companion" book. Or e-mail me and I could sum them up for you. They also have an ass load of manuevers for use with differnt weapons, like daggers have draw cut, which makes daggers usefull against unarmored opponents, since daggers are usually the ass weapon in most rpgs.

 

[Vault Dweller]

... but something that could make a usually non-combat stat used during combat?

Per gives "to hit" bonuses, critical strike bonuses, and determines effective range for ranged weapons.

Or e-mail me and I could sum them up for you

I'll look it up, but thanks for the offer

 

[Deacdo]

Personally, I think the "Whirlwind" technique shouldn't be a basic attack.

BTW, is there something like "attacks of opportunity" implemented in this game? If there is you could implement "charging" into combat.

Also, are the unique attacks something you learn from a master (or whatever), or something you get as you level up/increase your skills?

It would also be neat if technique(s) that allow you to kill or critically injure your oponent by sacraficing yourself (take a hit in order to kill) could be implemented.

A skill/ability that allows you to attack many times in succession (essentially a combo) depending on how many APs you have. NOT the same as attacking until you have no more APs

 

[Vault Dweller]

Personally, I think the "Whirlwind" technique shouldn't be a basic attack.

I didn't say it is. The penalties would make it useless (equivalent of a clumsy attack) if your skills are too low

BTW, is there something like "attacks of opportunity" implemented in this game? If there is you could implement "charging" into combat.

No, but there are interrupt attacks with long reach weapons

Also, are the unique attacks something you learn from a master (or whatever), or something you get as you level up/increase your skills?

Yes to both

It would also be neat if technique(s) that allow you to kill or critically injure your oponent by sacraficing yourself (take a hit in order to kill) could be implemented.

Sure, as long as there is a risk that such a hit could kill you.

A skill/ability that allows you to attack many times in succession (essentially a combo) depending on how many APs you have. NOT the same as attacking until you have no more APs

How would that work? Gameplay-wise?

 

[Deacdo]

I didn't say it is. The penalties would make it useless (equivalent of a clumsy attack) if your skills are too low

I was just voicing my opinion. The impression I got from the discussion was that it was part of your standard repertoire. Anyway, that sounds good.

No, but there are interrupt attacks with long reach weapons

How does that work? Is it just for someone with a long reach weapon who is getting attacked by someone with a dagger or something? Or does it also imply attacking someone who is trying to bypass a character (to get behind/beyond him/her)?

Speaking of that, are there bonuses/penalties for striking someone from different angles?

Sure, as long as there is a risk that such a hit could kill you.

Hmm. Not sure about that. The "reward" for using such a skill is a fairly quick kill or at least critically injuring your oponent. The "risk" is that you're getting injured yourself...but you may not succeed in your attack. I don't think failure should mean instant death (unless you're already injured, of course).

Not sure if you have some sort of "stamina" stat or something that is used to limit how many "special attacks" you can do (like mana for spellcasting or something).

How would that work? Gameplay-wise?

Depends on how the combat/stat mechanics work in your game. I could see it working a number of ways. Visually, the "combo" would just be a succession of "regular" attacks (uninterupted and increased in speed, if possible) to save time. If you have a "stamina" gauge it would consume stamina points.

Example 1: You start your turn standing right next to an enemy. You have a full 100 AP. It costs typically it would cost 30 AP per attack so you could attack him 3 times (or just once or twice) and perhaps move afterward. If you decided to do a special "combo" attack it would take all 100 AP, but you would get 5 attacks out of it. The *cost* would be that, as it is part of a combo, you cannot break it up. If your enemy dies after 1 hit (that happens to be critical or something), tough, you still use up your 100 AP. It would also cost stamina.

Example 2: Similar to example 1, but perhaps a skill better used against tougher foes. Rather that each "attack" in the combo being a normal one, you could make it that each successive attack has a better chance to do more damage (simulating feints and breaking down an oponents defense).

Really, there are a ton of ways to go about it (you could have many different combos if you want). But it really depends on how the combat mechanics work in your game and what stats you're using. Once that is decided you could implement any "risks", "rewards", and "costs" you like.

I'm really don't know how hard it is to implement these things in a game. It may be just as big of a pain as implementing called shots, for all I know.

 

[mathboy]

Attacks from lying down:

When knocked down you can choose to stay down playing dead (charisma modifier) in order to get an extra advantage when your enemies have run past you towards your allies/are just looking around.

Sneak attack: If you lie down and have an enemy looking the other way you can (with a dagger in your hand) cut his Achilles' tendon/whole back of his legs. Advantages: bonus to hit, he's completely unaware of the danger. Downside: You have to be knocked down/fake being knocked down. With a sword you could maybe stick it up between his legs, if his leg armors are bad.

Super fast throat slitting: If you have an high enough (super hig) agility rating you could, before he notices you moving, get up to your feet behind his back and cutting their throats or threatening to do so to get out of combat.




Sadly these requires too much animations I guess, but anyone else making a game maybe wants them in their games so I'm posting it anyway.

 

[Heirophant]

How about a dagger ability where a successful backstab allows you to use your enemy's corpse as a literal meat shield for a turn?

 

[Naked_Lunch]

How about a special attack in which rip off a baby's head, thus scaring away the enemy with your pure and unadultered badassness?