Squeenix Spoony plays Final Fantasy XIII

[MicoSelva]

FFX (...) very good and solid

I have never played it, but pardon me if I put more value into the opinion of a guy, who made a whole video series proving otherwise.

 

[aris]

He proves very little in his videos. Most of his reviews are mostly just him getting caught up for 30 minutes in some completely insignificant detail. I watch his movies mostly to be entertained, not for its informative value.

 

[aris]

Different folks, different strokes. The story and voices make X unplayable to me. The combat is good but the encounters aren't. Everything can be beaten the same way. The encounters were so boring that when I tried the game, I started fleeing from every single fight 25% into the game. I still beat all the bosses, except for the final one, and then only because I didn't want to extend my rental duration.

Everything can theoretically be beaten in the same way, but pretty much every monster had some strategy against it that was vastly better than the other. Of course it's boring if you use the same ineffective attack over and over again though.

 

[Falkner]

I liked the combat system, on both FFXII and XIII Square-Enix had the guts to try new things, and both of them had nice pay-offs.

Oh god, FFXII. Worst FF combat I've played.

Sure, is not as tight as the ATB system in FFX, but that one is being worked on for 20 years now...

So what? Does that really matter? It works or it doesn't, what good is an "innovative" system that's not good? I mean, I'm sure that at least some people in that game's development put a lot of effort into it, but when it comes to evaluating the game all that matters is whether it works and is fun and engaging to play.

The story didn't bother me as well, they did a nice twist and most of the game you're the bad guy with a quest to destroy the world, until the plot twists and you see you really have to destroy it, because it's corrupted. It was over-extended and with a bad pacing, but not bad per se.

Why should anyone care about a nice twist when the dialogue is terrible, the characters are impossible to identify with and the world it's set in looks like a random sequence of things that the designers thought looked cool? It fails at the very basics. And even when you're defending the story, you don't seem to be particularly impressed with it either. You say it "didn't bother you" and that it wasn't "bad per se". Not exactly a ringing endorsement, especially considering that the story makes up so fucking much of the game.

I get pissed with how people love to cry about jRPG being boring or lacking innovation, when they shun down all attempts at innovation and keep asking for a FFVII remake... Dragon Quest is the cookie-cutter series of SE, with the gameplay almost unchanged since the NES days, and DQ VIII is a fantastic classical-style game, but of course, it passes completly unnoticed by "jRPG fans" that only play FF and hyped stuff like P4... they are thew 90's version of modern "RPG fans" that only know Mass Effect and Skyrim... fucking posers.

I have never played DQ and you seem to be more knowledgable about JRPGs than me, but I once liked playing them, too. The problem with most of them is not that they lack innovation, it's rather that they are bad at what they're doing. Traditional fantasy hero's journey stories can be pretty entertaining, if done well. Same for traditional turn-based, menu-driven combat systems. But most JRPGs give you the most annoying protagonists imaginable, severely limit your character development choices, give you next to no transparency about what that stat you just increased actually does in terms of the underlying mechanics, lock you into hour-long, unskippable tutorials and keep elemental parts of the game from you until they deem it safe enough for your puny brain to process the new-found complexity, saying "Hang in there, it get's better after just 15 hours, when you can start using function XY".
Instead you want/like FFXIII, which gives you the most annoying protagonists imaginable, severely limits your character development choices, gives you next to no transparency on what things like "+5 strength" actually do, locks you into hour-long, unskippable tutorials (and corridors) and keeps seemingly elemental parts of the game from you, saying "Look, it get's better after 25 motherfucking hours, just keep going".... BUT WITH A TWIST!
As to those you complain about, I don't really get the problem. Sure, they might have a very limited frame of reference, which makes valuable evaluation of the genre problematic. But at the very least they seem to prefer the ones that are actually games.

I'm sorry if this comes across as malicious (it isn't) or as if I actually cared about the development of JRPGs (I don't really), I just find it difficult to understand how someone who comes across as a chill bro can like a game like FFXIII, which to me really is complete and utter shit. Imagine someone like, say, Sceptic suddenly showing up in thread about how DA2 is shit and then telling us that he enjoyed the game for BioWare's innovations. It's just weird.

PS: Especially considering this is the Codex. Pretty much everyone here would prefer a return to old, proven concepts to the innovation of cover-based shooting and quick-time events.

 

[felipepepe]

Can you see how you prove my point?

Let's try this again... Square-Enix has two big franchises, Final Fantasy and Dragon Quest.

FF: They have ALWAYS tried new things, from FF 1 to 13-2, every game introduced new stuff, with various degrees degrees of success.

DQ: Classic jRPG, almost unchanged since DQ 1.

You're saying that you don't care for innovations, only solid gameplay, yet you completely ignore SE's classic jRPG series and instead go play their innovative series, whining about the fucking innovations! Seriously, if SE simply pasted FF's logo on the cover of DQ 8, every one of the countless haters, like you, on the internet would be singing hymns of joy... get my despite?

 

[Falkner]

Can you see how you prove my point?

Let's try this again... Square-Enix has two big franchises, Final Fantasy and Dragon Quest.

FF: They have ALWAYS tried new things, from FF 1 to 13-2, every game introduced new stuff, with various degrees degrees of success.

DQ: Classic jRPG, almost unchanged since DQ 1.

You're saying that you don't care for innovations, only solid gameplay, yet you completely ignore SE's classic jRPG series

True, I never played DQ and played a few FF games. The reason for that is when I was younger, I didn't even know about DQ, which is probably not unheard of in the west (Wikipedia says that DQVIII was the first DQ game released in Europe, back in 2006). Now that I'm older and more familiar with western RPGs, my interest in JRPGs has dropped significantly. I thought about playing one of the games in the near future, but it's not a priority.

and instead go play their innovative series, whining about the fucking innovations!

Well, the Final Fantasy series holds a certain amount of nostalgia for me, which is why I was still somewhat looking forward to XIII. And I don't think I'm whining at all. I don't dislike the changes out of principle, I just think they're badly done. Sure, experiment if you want to, try to mix it up a little. But if you fuck those changes up and end up with something that is just not very good, you will receive criticism for it and you deserve it. I wouldn't give XIII a good score just because it tried. (Somewhat. Maybe.)

Seriously, if SE simply pasted FF's logo on the cover of DQ 8, every one of the countless haters, like you, on the internet would be singing hymns of joy... get my despite?

So I'm a whining hater now?
As I said, I haven't played DQVIII, so I find it rather difficult to argue with you about it. I don't know what it did right or what it did wrong or how it was received, or whatever.
I don't even really know what we're arguing about anymore.
My point was simply the following: Final Fantasy XIII is horrible game because of reasons. People with a limited view of the genre can still be able to discern its shortcomings and be right about it.

 

[felipepepe]

My point was simply the following: Final Fantasy XIII is horrible game because of reasons. People with a limited view of the genre can still be able to discern its shortcomings and be right about it.

That's modern game journalism logic... "I've never played a roguelike before, but NetHack is a shitty joke! It crashed into an screen full of weird symbols, and I cound't even find my character or the controler button that shoots! How can people play this? -3/10".

Having a personal opinion doesn't mean you're "right" on what people look for in a game and how they enjoy it. That's something I like in sea 's reviews, he never goes "3/10, horrible game", but instead details the features of the game, how they work and what he makes of them, usually ending with a "If you like X, this game is for you, but don't come expecting Y..."

For someone tired of jRPGs and trying FF XIII only for the nostalgia of old games, FF XIII must indeed be a horrible experience, but that doesn't mean that a fan of jRPGs that likes to try new things won't have a lot of fun with the game.

 

[tuluse]

For someone tired of cRPGs and trying Fallout 3 only for the nostalgia of old games, Fallout 3 must indeed be a horrible experience, but that doesn't mean that a fan of cRPGs that likes to try new things won't have a lot of fun with the game.

 

[felipepepe]

I was expecting this (but with Oblivion)... and yes, not on that particular sentence order, but it's true that Fallout 3 has tons of fan, doesn't it?

However, F3 completly abandon or fuck everything that a CRPG stands for... it is not the worst game ever made, but is one of the worst cRPGs ever made and easily the worst Fallout game ever (ok, maybe not, there's brotherhood still). Same thing Mass Effect, it's clearly a horrible RPG, but a succesfull action-visual novel with tons of romance... what people here really hate about those games is the RPG label, because the game doesn't offer anything that a RPG fan expects, and even shits of the name of the Fallout series. If ME was sold as a action-adventure, I doubt people would rage so much or cry DECLINE.

A honest review of Mass Effect isn't 0/10, but something more like "People looking after an RPG have no place here, this is a action-adventure game with bland shooting sections, but a big focus on cinematic storytelling and relationships."

On the other hand, can you really say that FF XIII is a black sheep in the jRPG genre, that it doens't follow the path that FF games have been following since at least FF VII? Critics like "unlikeble characters and nonsense story" (at least for most westerns) have been around so long they are almost a characteristic of the genre... apart from some stuff like linear dungeons, you could play most of Sppony's critics to Xenogears 15 years ago and it would fit perfectly. Seriously, a guy that starts to play a jRPG, sees a guy with a physically impossible weapon and gets outraged is playing the wrong genre.

 

[Falkner]

So I guess you missed the countless threads where people make fun of the writing in the Mass Effect series? The problem is not the (just) the focus, it's that even the thing they are actually focusing on is not well done.
I mean, people here often refer to PST as an adventure game but it's still well-loved because while it focuses on the story, it actually has a pretty good one.
FF XIII focuses on showing you cutscenes (if you like that, fine), but the story in those cutscenes is pretty bad. Older JRPGs at least had the decency to offer a slice of game along with the cheesy story.

 

[felipepepe]

So I guess you missed the countless threads where people make fun of the writing in the Mass Effect series? The problem is not the (just) the focus, it's that even the thing they are actually focusing on is not well done.

Yes, and what is the focus of a jRPG? I garantee you they are not aiming for western-friendly narratives set on physically-possible locations with as little exposition as possible...

FF XIII focuses on showing you cutscenes (if you like that, fine), but the story in those cutscenes is pretty bad. Older JRPGs at least had the decency to offer a slice of game along with the cheesy story.

Ha, you sure? Obviously, there wasn't techonolgy for fullblown cutscenes, but even in older FFs you had many situations were you would spend looong minutes just reading text, like the Opera House in FF VI, that lasted more than 10 minutes, and those countless Kefta scenes... not to mention stuff like Xenogears (in)famous 40 minutes-long cutscene, or more current stuff, like Xenosaga's 8 hours of cutscenes and Lost Odissey's insane 20 hours of exposition...

You're trying to judge an entire genre on the nostalgic memories of a few games you would probably hate today bro.

 

[Jasede]

The difference, in my opinion anyway, is that the FF 6 cutscenes are thoroughly enjoyable to me. You always know what's going on and they're entertaining. Especially the opera, or the world ending, and so on. In FF 13 the player has to always ask himself: What? Why? This doesn't make sense! Who is that!?

You raise an excellent point about innovation, though. FF has always tried new things. Every single FF game is radically different in its systems. You can't pick one up and expect it to be like a good old FF game from the past- their whole shtick is trying weird things. Sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't. In my opinion, lately it doesn't.

But there definitely are tons of more traditional jRPGs out for those who want more of what they grew up with.

I also want to point out Persona 4's intro takes about two hours. I enjoyed it, but... storytelling and jRPGs go together like bread and butter. There's always the less story-focused Wizardry-like games, like Dark Spire or Etrian Odyssey.

And for the record, I did recently replay FF 4, 5 and 6 so at least for me it's not nostalgia. Can't stand 7, though, replayed that as well. (You know, for posterity.)

 

[Mrowak]

So I guess you missed the countless threads where people make fun of the writing in the Mass Effect series? The problem is not the (just) the focus, it's that even the thing they are actually focusing on is not well done.

Yes, and what is the focus of a jRPG? I garantee you they are not aiming for western-friendly narratives set on physically-possible locations with as little exposition as possible...

Yes they appear to be aiming at mawkish, soppy idiot-friendly narratives, with loads of sensationalist nonsense that they hope will mask intellectual and creative bankruptcy of the overall design.

Didn't want to be harsh here, but I somehow start to see red when I read stuff like " it's not western-friendly!". As if there was anything complex to understand in this and many other cases. Japanese culture has a lot more to offer than this crap, and it's difference from western cultures is one of the most compelling reasons to get invested in it. Damn fucking shame we actually don't see it in jRPGs.

I'd be more inclined to argue that what we witness in jRPGs is a watered-down, wishy-washy, trivialized take on the west. It's actually very easy to comprehend, which is why it appeals to so some people.

 

[Andyman Messiah]

And for the record, I did recently replay FF 4, 5 and 6 so at least for me it's not nostalgia. Can't stand 7, though, replayed that as well. (You know, for posterity.)

I bet.

 

[felipepepe]

Didn't want to be harsh here, but I somehow start to see red when I read stuff like " it's not western-friendly!". As if there was anything complex to understand in this and many other cases. Japanese culture has a lot more to offer than this crap, and it's difference from western cultures is one of the most compelling reasons to get invested in it. Damn fucking shame we actually don't see it in jRPGs.

True, it was a simplification of my part. Would be more correct to say they are, mostly, designed for a japanese audience that have extremely different tastes than most westerns.

And to be fair, it's something we get on every culture... I'm sick and tired of playing american games with 30's-something brown haired guys with a stubble beard cracking horrible witty remarks. Or stuff on how heroic the army is and the fucking word "terrorist". Or shoehorned 9/11 references showing "the unity of the american people", with a massive shots of an american flag. Or baseball. But as a thirdworldian brazilian, what can I do? I'm far from their target audience, I'm the guy stretching over to get what they are offering... Americans are the main market, and they clearly love all that nationalism, so it stays, and fuck me if I don't like it.

At least japanese are aware that their tastes are not global and try stuff like the two NIER versions, one with skinny weaboo characters, the other with a hilarious viking (seriously, I lol'ed hard when I saw how they made the western protagonist):

And yes, jRPGs are nothing more than a extremely caricatural and shallow face of japanese culture, but so are kwa ones... games aren't "art" bro.

 

[Falkner]

So I guess you missed the countless threads where people make fun of the writing in the Mass Effect series? The problem is not the (just) the focus, it's that even the thing they are actually focusing on is not well done.

Yes, and what is the focus of a jRPG? I garantee you they are not aiming for western-friendly narratives set on physically-possible locations with as little exposition as possible...

XIII's narrative is not bad because it is not western-friendly. The japanese have produced some pretty good stories over the years across several media, we both know that this is not just a case of me not getting it because I'm from the west.

FF XIII focuses on showing you cutscenes (if you like that, fine), but the story in those cutscenes is pretty bad. Older JRPGs at least had the decency to offer a slice of game along with the cheesy story.

Ha, you sure? Obviously, there wasn't techonolgy for fullblown cutscenes, but even in older FFs you had many situations were you would spend looong minutes just reading text, like the Opera House in FF VI, that lasted more than 10 minutes, and those countless Kefta scenes...,

XIII has around six and a half hours of cutscenes and not terribly much to do in the actual game. Final Fantasy VI should have less than that (seriously, it can't be that much) and has better gameplay. I can't begrudge anyone who'd rather play VI than XIII.

not to mention stuff like Xenogears (in)famous 40 minutes-long cutscene, or more current stuff, like Xenosaga's 8 hours of cutscenes

Didn't play, sounds bad, though.

and Lost Odissey's insane 20 hours of exposition...

Fairly recent.

You're trying to judge an entire genre on the nostalgic memories of a few games you would probably hate today bro.

As I already said, I think that JRPGs in the most cases have significant flaws. I get the feeling that you don't quite understand what I am trying to say: Final Fantasy XIII is not a good game, not because of the genre it belongs to, but because it does many things wrong (which I have already mentioned). I acknowledge that it is not alone in that. XIII is not the only bad game in a decade full of gems, far from that. But that doesn't make it better, either. I hate to bring it up again, but DA2 was also released in a period of decline and a lot of its flaws can be found in other recent games. Does that excuse it? No, of course not. I'm really trying to judge it based on what is IS, not on what the genre has become or maybe always was.

The only reason why we're talking about the genre at all is your comment about people like Spoony who like the games of the early to mid nineties and criticize newer ones. I just don't see a problem there. Spoony likes VI and VII and dislikes VIII, X and XIII. The latter are in my opinion clearly inferior, you don't need an encyclopedic knowledge of the genre before you're allowed to say that. He sometimes nitpicks a bit much, but all in all he makes very valid points.

 

[SuicideBunny]

At least japanese are aware that their tastes are not global and try stuff like the two NIER versions, one with skinny weaboo characters, the other with a hilarious viking (seriously, I lol'ed hard when I saw how they made the western protagonist):

the viking is the main protagonist of the original 360 game in japan and all the worldwide releases on both systems. the skinny weaboo is the main guy in the later japan only ps3 release and had prolly been done due to shitty original contract with microsoft.

 

[DraQ]

And to be fair, it's something we get on every culture... I'm sick and tired of playing american games with 30's-something brown haired guys with a stubble beard cracking horrible witty remarks. Or stuff on how heroic the army is and the fucking word "terrorist". Or shoehorned 9/11 references showing "the unity of the american people", with a massive shots of an american flag. Or baseball.

That's why potato.
: x

 

[Machocruz]

Is Nier a game about trannies?

 

[80Maxwell08]

At least japanese are aware that their tastes are not global and try stuff like the two NIER versions, one with skinny weaboo characters, the other with a hilarious viking (seriously, I lol'ed hard when I saw how they made the western protagonist):

the viking is the main protagonist of the original 360 game in japan and all the worldwide releases on both systems. the skinny weaboo is the main guy in the later japan only ps3 release and had prolly been done due to shitty original contract with microsoft.

Actually the PS3 one is the original protagonist. Some of the lead people at Cavia went to a meeting at Square Enix's LA studio and they said a fragile young character wouldn't be good for the US market so they made the guy for the 360 version and worldwide release.
http://www.siliconera.com/2010/05/20/barbarian-nier-was-born-in-los-angeles/

 

[SuicideBunny]

wow. ok, that is retarded

 

[Jasede]

Honest to god, the old guy is much more likable and it was one of the best decisions ever made.

 

[Mrowak]

Didn't want to be harsh here, but I somehow start to see red when I read stuff like " it's not western-friendly!". As if there was anything complex to understand in this and many other cases. Japanese culture has a lot more to offer than this crap, and it's difference from western cultures is one of the most compelling reasons to get invested in it. Damn fucking shame we actually don't see it in jRPGs.

True, it was a simplification of my part. Would be more correct to say they are, mostly, designed for a japanese audience that have extremely different tastes than most westerns.

And to be fair, it's something we get on every culture... I'm sick and tired of playing american games with 30's-something brown haired guys with a stubble beard cracking horrible witty remarks. Or stuff on how heroic the army is and the fucking word "terrorist". Or shoehorned 9/11 references showing "the unity of the american people", with a massive shots of an american flag. Or baseball. But as a thirdworldian brazilian, what can I do? I'm far from their target audience, I'm the guy stretching over to get what they are offering... Americans are the main market, and they clearly love all that nationalism, so it stays, and fuck me if I don't like it.

I kinda feel you bro, but to be honest the two most recent games I have seen this sort of approach are this:



and this:



But that's just the Japanese playing on western stereotypes.

I really cannot think of any other major western title (maybe Call of Duty?) where this shit is prelevant.

And quite frankly this take does not enjoy widespread support here, so I don't see why jRPGs should be exempted from its equivalent.

At least japanese are aware that their tastes are not global and try stuff like the two NIER versions, one with skinny weaboo characters, the other with a hilarious viking (seriously, I lol'ed hard when I saw how they made the western protagonist):

And yes, jRPGs are nothing more than a extremely caricatural and shallow face of japanese culture, but so are kwa ones... games aren't "art" bro.

Actually the western guy does look more fatherly and masculine than its Japanese counterpart so I guess that's the positive case of localisation.

 

[Clockwork Knight]

I thought the "western version" was the original.

edit: yep

http://nier.wikia.com/wiki/NIER

Nier Gestalt (ニーア ゲシュタルト, Nīa Geshutaruto) or simply NIER, as it is known outside Japan, is an action role-playing video game developed by Cavia and published by Square Enix. It was released in 2010 for the Xbox 360 and PlayStation 3 in Europe and North America, and only on the Xbox 360 in Japan.
A separate game was also made exclusively for the PlayStation 3 and for the Japanese market, known as Nier Replicant. The game is based in the same world and is only be different in regards to Nier's appearance and his relationship with the girl Yonah. Nier Gestalt was simply titled NIER in Europe and North America, as it is the only version released there. The game was released in Japan on April 24, 2010 and North America on April 27, 2010.
Nier continues off the fifth ending from the game Drakengard.

In the "more Japanese" version, he looks younger and the girl is his sister. I'm willing to bet there's some wincest subtext as well, because japan.

I also want to point out Persona 4's intro takes about two hours.

That feel when playing P3 on hard mode and getting OHKO'd on the first fight, about 30 minutes in.

 

[80Maxwell08]

There's plenty of sites that differ in which one comes first. I bring up that Siliconera article because when it comes to Japanese games they are usually incredibly accurate and they actually have info from one of the guys who worked on it. Granted the 360 was the main platform for development but that changed later on and it became a multiplatform game. Siliconera links this interview with Yoko Taro (or Taro Yoko I've seen sites use both) but it's in Japanese.
http://www.inside-games.jp/article/2010/05/18/42090_2.html